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View Full Version : Porsche 911L 1968 901/30 Racing-Rally



Thomas lundeval
12-03-2010, 11:58 AM
Wonder how many 911L 1968 rally racing cars exist of them 28 rally-racing cars that were equipped with 901/30 engine, which according to Porsche's own information had engine number 3880001-3880028. Seems like the 911L with 901/30 engine used on the racing track in the U.S. and Europa as rally cars. I know some of the cars with these engines, hope there is more information to get about these interesting cars;



<a href="http://s178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/?action=view&amp;current=1069192541li.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/1069192541li.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

911L racing in USA

<a href="http://s178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/?action=view&amp;current=1968-ZASADA-PORSCHE911T-ACROPOLIS-1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/1968-ZASADA-PORSCHE911T-ACROPOLIS-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>


<a href="http://s178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/?action=view&amp;current=BB4200Waldegrd.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/BB4200Waldegrd.jpg" border="0" alt="B.Waldeg&amp;aring;rd B 4200 911L 1968"></a>

911L rally in Europa





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911L 1968 Rally-Racing cars


Vin and engine number for 3 cars.
11810437 3880005
11810438 3880006
11810482 3880010

Thomas lundeval
12-08-2010, 08:54 AM
This information comes from a Swedish book published in collaboration with the Swedish Automobile Sports Federation 1969. Hope my translation from Swedish is good enough.

<a href="http://s178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/?action=view&amp;current=2010-12-08-1734-30.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/2010-12-08-1734-30.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket">

<a href="http://s178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/?action=view&amp;current=2010-12-08-1737-54.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/2010-12-08-1737-54.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>





A few years ago met the Porsche claims to be classified as a touring car which had the effect of car-adjusted purely in the price lists of numerous touring car races. The model 911 L, which we competed with, however, discontinuation of why there is now allowed to drive with other vehicles of the type Lotus Elan, or group 3.
For forest competitions can also receive Porsche equipped from the factory when there was a rally package with some of the details needed to improve both performance and handling. Furthermore, you can get your car fitted with a different gearbox with limited slip, but this is something of an Achilles heel for the car. For the gearbox did not suit the car's conventional drive shafts, and instead you get when using parts from Carrera 6 which is a much lighter car. Under extreme stress, it happens often that the drive shafts shortcomings, perhaps the most inopportune moments.
By installing parts from the sharper 911 S engine power can easily be increased to 150-160 hp which is enough to give it substantially rally car acceleration 0-100 in 7.9 seconds. Top speed with a "normal" competition ratio is not higher than 180 km per hour to over 200 for the standard
The price for a complete rally equipped Porsche is around 47000 SEK.
On the race track, you need a car that costs almost as much. Here you avoid the stone guards and extra light on the other hand would be enough to squeeze out a few more engine horsepower and the cars that Scania Vabis Porsche teams using the engines of around 175 horsepower, which gives an acceleration of 0-100 in about 7 seconds and a top speed around 180 km. At rallies do not dare to take out the engine as many horses as possible when you have to have a life then of course the races going on for several hours or even days. On the track, however, drive just rarely longer than one quarter at a time and you can therefore afford to compromise on life for the engine. For the other costs will be at the track the precious alloy wheels with extra-wide racing tires. A wheel with tires will cost almost 1000 SEK.

Thomas lundeval
12-09-2010, 10:47 AM
Got a new VIN number for 911L (901/30) from one Early 911S member, 11810486 and engine number.


11810437 3880005 Rally car
11810438 3880006 Rally car
11810482 3880010 Race car
11810486 3880009 Race car

HughH
12-11-2010, 06:43 PM
Hi Thomas
this is a great idea to start a thread on these little known cars.

I have details on some cars, some of this information came from posts on this and other parts which have come directly from Thomas and some other sources. (by the way Thomas I think a couple of the engine numbers you posted above are reversed from what I have listed)

below is my list. it is by no means comprehensive but ion most cases i have copies of COA's, factory telexes or other documents to support the numbers and photos of most cars (which I can post as soon as I get some time). I would welcome any additions and corrections to this information so we can have a reasonably accurate source of the truth on this board.

there is inevitably an overlap in what has been posted above but I have tried to do them in chassis order. Note the odd one out is 0414 in terms of engine number etc but I understand that those were the numbers on the kardex

911L details
118 1 0177 engine 388 0003 (901/30) gearbox 928 2006 (901/52)
Don Pike Trans Am car #69 COA says rally kit sports kit etc

118 1 0414 engine 308 0389 gearbox 328 1021 (902 / 1)
Waldegaard rally car BB3020

118 1 0429 engine 388 0008 gearbox number begins 928 2...
Wetsons Trans Am car #20 1969/71

118 1 0437 engine 388 0006 (901/30?)
white car sold in Germany

118 1 0438 engine 388 0005 (901/30) gearbox 928 1006
Swedish rally car BB4300 (Andersson/Svedberg).

118 1 0439 engine 388 xxxx (901/30) gearbox 928 ? (twin of 0438)
Swedish rally car BB4200 (Waldegård/Helmer and BB4900

118 1 0449 engine 388 xxxx?
Fred Baker Trans Am car. Was for sale this year anyone know details?

118 1 0482 engine 388 0010 (901/30) gearbox 928 2016
Bob Bailey Trans Am car #22 COA says rally kit sports kit

118 1 0486 engine 388 0009 (901/30) gearbox 928 2017
John Kelly Trans Am car sports kit rally kit
Other likely cars
Lars Nyström 911L.#14 BB 4151 rally car
Duvigneaud red #86 911L from Brno Grand Prix in 1968
Kremer red #84 911L from Brno Grand Prix in 1968
Kremer white #85 911L from Brno Grand Prix in 1968
Kremer red #94 911L from Brno Grand Prix in 1968
Zasada factory rally car S E 8052 Acropolis Rally 1968

Rennman
12-17-2010, 04:01 PM
I owned and restored the Kelly car and now own the Pike car. This is what I know. These cars were Euro 911Ls unlike the USA L and were basically trimmed like a 912. Somewere delivered with US headlights and markers others with Euro lights. The 68 only side reflectors were on the Pike car but not on the Kelly car. They were all built with Roll Bar, Rally Kit, Sport Kit 2, LSD, lowered koni Suspension, leather steering wheel and side lettering. No undercoat or sound deadening. The cars varied with wheels (the Kelly car had steelies) 100 liter tank and gearsets. The Rally kit includes Sport seats or bucket seats. The Kardex on the Kelly car listed "Rally Kit without seats." That car had R Scheels which were documented as always being with the car. The Pike car Buckets from what Don the original owner told me. I assume Recaro. The 67 Normal Rally Kit car and the 68S Rally Kit car that I owned had reclining Recaro seats. None of these L cars had skidplates or tinted glass. Even though these cars were called Trans Am cars they were the same as the European Rally cars just lower I guess!

Bruce Jennings had one of these that won Daytona in 69 and was recently sold. I was under the impression the Wetson car was destroyed and was wondering where the serial number came from.

1968 was the year for racing 911s and there were alot of variations of the theme. I recently found and bought a 68T with LSD, Koni Suspension, Swaybars, S Instruments and oil tank, wood wheel, extra blower motor. It has some tells that it was raced or rallied but I am still trying to find out the history.

Don

HughH
12-17-2010, 05:26 PM
Hi Don

thanks for the extra information. some of the information i have has come from your informative posts in the pastand your website.

as to you comment " I was under the impression the Wetson car was destroyed and was wondering where the serial number came from."

this is where i got it from http://www.racingsportscars.com/chassis/photo/118%2010%20429.html
this site shows it as the Daytona winner #20 in GT 2.0 in 1969 for Tony Adamowicz /Bruce Jennings /Herb Wetanson

i also have something that was posted on a board somewhere (and i dont have details where ) which states " poor scan of 118 1 0429 kardex. engine 388 0008 Trans number begins 928 2... options : rallykit, 100 liters tank (other information unreadable and in German text )" Indeed it may have even been you who posted it???

so far as whether it was destroyed I don't know.
the racingsportscars site shows it as still competing in the 1971 Watkins glen 6 hours with Bert Everett and Bob Beasley.
I did note in the photos from 1969 that Westons had 2 cars with near identical livery the other car carrying (i think ) race number 22 (for Cuomo / Moore at 1969 Trans am Bridgehampton at least)

Raj might know if it was destroyed or not.... I have a photo of a car that looks like the Daytona car with the Westons livery and race #20 with Raj's 91R in the background. I suspect that is the car that you mention was recently sold. That car may be the real thing, or it may be a recreation, or it may be the Daytona winner but not be 118 1 0429 as shown in the website i referred to; I dont know - but Raj may.

Rennman
12-17-2010, 05:57 PM
The PART Porsche Of America Racing Team was the Jennings car not the earlier Wetson car though Wetenson did drive with Jennings. There are pictures of the Wetenson car pretty well destroyed in the Trans Am book. Cool stuff.

Don

HughH
12-17-2010, 06:20 PM
Thnaks for clarifying this Don

now we have to confirm what the number of the Jennings car that was recently sold is, whether it is 118 1 0429

Chuck Miller
12-17-2010, 07:31 PM
Don,

Is your 'Don Pike' car the same white 911 he drove for Don Burns in '68?

Rennman
12-17-2010, 08:08 PM
Chuck,

I spoke with Don Pike about that and he told me it was not the same car and that he did not drive for Burns! I don't know what to make of that autographed picture. Don is older now and maybe he just did not remember.

Don

HughH
12-18-2010, 02:46 AM
I am not sure if this helps but I have an entry list for the SCCA races at santa barbara on 1 september 1968

the entry list shows Don Pike in a Kendon Porsche entered 911 class Bs #69
It also shows him entered in a 904 for Otto Zipper car #69 but an accompanying document shows that car as did not arrive

there is no entry that i could see for a Don Burns car, either as entrant or driver at that race meeting.

so Don Pike would have been there to sign a program but not neccessarily as a driver of the car on the cover.

fap901
12-18-2010, 08:36 AM
ARRC NOVEMBER 1968, B SEDAN race : Don PIKE is leading Alan JOHNSON' s DON BURN car
http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/7798/arrc11685.th.jpg (http://img191.imageshack.us/i/arrc11685.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Chuck Miller
12-18-2010, 09:35 AM
Let me clarify about the Santa Barbara program...

- It is the program I received when I attended the race when I was 19 in '68

- Don Pike's signature on the cover is only about 2 years old, when he signed it at a Fabulous Fifties event.

- I held on to the program for about 30 years when I started meeting and re-acquainted myself with some of the heroes of my youth.

- I eventually showed my old program to Topper Chassie, Milt Minter, Davey Jordan, and Scooter Patrick. They all came to conclusion that that driver was Pike.......

- Years later when I showed Don Pike the program to have him sign he said "Where the hell did you get that" he did not confirm or deny he was on the cover.

Now,

My sincere apologies for making an unsubstantiated statement...

On further examination of my 2 1968 SCCA programs there seems to be more then enough evidence to establish that Alan Johnson was driving a 911 for Don Burns in 1968 in both C/Production and B/Sedan.

This ad for Economotors in my '68 Riverside SCCA National program pretty much confirms driver to car........

Again, my apologies for making inference into fact for far too long a time.......

Chuck

Rennman
12-18-2010, 04:48 PM
Appologies not needed Chuck. Wish it was the same car. Who knows where it is today.........Pike's car surfaced after 40 plus years so you never know.

Don

Thomas lundeval
12-20-2010, 07:38 AM
Here is some more information for those who are not so familiar with what the engine number 388XXXX and gearbox numbers 928XXXXX means. Second digit of engine number is 8 and then it is a "sondermotoren", in English specialty engine. Gearbox first figure, in this case is 9 and it is a "sondergetribe" (special gearbox).

<a href="http://s178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/?action=view&amp;current=2010-12-20-1602-28.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/2010-12-20-1602-28.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/?action=view&amp;current=2010-12-20-1555-23.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/2010-12-20-1555-23.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/?action=view&amp;current=2010-12-20-1600-43.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/2010-12-20-1600-43.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Rennman
12-21-2010, 04:02 PM
I just dug up a Road and Track article from 1968 that mentions that THREE of these cars were ordered from the Southern California Porsche Distributor at the same time, one for Alan Johnson to race for Don Burns, one for Vasek Polak and one for Don Pike. Only the Pike car is known. Does anyone have any leads on the Burns or Vasek cars?? Interestingly the article which is about Alan Johnson's 67S shows the super rare Speedster type buckets in Alan's 67. Also these cars weighed 2,060 vs 2,250 for a standard car.

Don

Rennman
12-21-2010, 06:04 PM
The article is misleading as the Rally Kit/Sport Kit cars for 68 were based on the L or the T. The S was dropped in 68 in favor of the T Rally. This was published in the Sports Purpose manual and order bullitens. I did own an Italian 68S Sport Kit/Rally Kit car so I guess anything was possible but from all of the cars I have seen here in the US they were either the L or the T Rally for 68. My car was referenced in the article and it is the L not an S.

Don

Rennman
12-22-2010, 05:50 AM
Ofcourse Ss were used in competition just not built with RallyKit ect. like the cars we are discussing here. Porsche did not build them. Any Rally Kit type car that competed in the US in 68 was an L or a T. If it was an S in competition it was built from a standard S. This is well known. Your reference is for 67 anyway.

Don

Rennman
12-22-2010, 05:51 PM
I am not sure what you are getting at. The FACT is any of the Rally Kit cars for 68 were 911Ls or Ts. Ss were certainly raced just not as Factory built Rally kit cars. All of the known Factory special 68 cars that were raced here were Ls or T Rally Kit cars. Show us a 68 S with Rally Kit that was raced here. They don't exist. That is why you can't beleive what you read. You posted a document for the 67 season. Look at the actual cars. I have owned and seen enough of them.

Don

Rennman
12-22-2010, 06:20 PM
Factory ducumentation exists that no 68S Rally kit cars were to be produced. The cars that came here were the T Rally (replacing the S) and the special Ls. Many of these cars still exist and none of them are a 68S with Rally Kit ect. Bruce Jennings won Daytona in 69 with an L Rally Kit car. He was as well connected with Porsche as anyone and if an S was availible he would have had it. I do not know why you are debating known facts. Talk to the guys who were there then or show me an S Rally Kit car that raced here. I have done alot of research on the 68 special cars and have seen many of them. The late Barry Williams was there back in the day and tought me alot of this stuff. There were no Ss in 68!! The car you are showing is a T Rally! Barry owned a very simillar car. Post a Vin# It is a T/R. I am done...

Don

Thomas lundeval
12-23-2010, 01:14 AM
<a href="http://s178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/?action=view&amp;current=posGwCG0KGrHgoH-CoEjlLl2U9BJwQoYqDw_19.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/posGwCG0KGrHgoH-CoEjlLl2U9BJwQoYqDw_19.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>


Found this 911L in German mobile side, it has the VIN number 11810404. Does anyone know if it can be a car that was equipped with 388xxxx engine. Perhaps one of the German readers know?

http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/showDetails.html?id=109886796&__lp=1&scopeId=C&sortOption.sortBy=price.consumerGrossEuro&sortOption.sortOrder=ASCENDING&makeModelVariant1.makeId=20100&makeModelVariant1.modelId=3&makeModelVariant1.modelDescription=L&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchInFreetext=false&vehicleCategory=Car&segment=Car&minFirstRegistrationDate=1965-01-01&maxFirstRegistrationDate=1970-12-31&minPrice=55000&siteId=GERMANY&negativeFeatures=EXPORT&damageUnrepaired=NO_DAMAGE_UNREPAIRED&export=NO_EXPORT&customerIdsAsString=&lang=de&pageNumber=1

Aldo
12-23-2010, 04:57 AM
"-O'Neill's acquisition proved unique. Though badged as a
911S, it duplicat..."
Raj- the article was just getting to the matter when you stopped
the copy!?

davep
12-23-2010, 06:48 AM
Thomas, the VIN is close to the other cars, but from the description it sounds more like a recreation than an original car. A look at the Kardex for it would be important. Also, you need to get the numbers from the car to see what it currently has in it.

peekaboo
12-25-2010, 08:46 AM
The article is misleading as the Rally Kit/Sport Kit cars for 68 were based on the L or the T. The S was dropped in 68 in favor of the T Rally. This was published in the Sports Purpose manual and order bullitens. I did own an Italian 68S Sport Kit/Rally Kit car so I guess anything was possible but from all of the cars I have seen here in the US they were either the L or the T Rally for 68. My car was referenced in the article and it is the L not an S.

Don


"I did own an Italian 68S Sport Kit/Rally Kit car so I guess anything was possible" (12-21-2010 06:04 PM / Rennman) .....................


followed by :

"Factory ducumentation exists that no 68S Rally kit cars were to be produced." (12-22-2010 06:20 PM #27 / Rennman)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These two statements by the same person are quite contradictory.

If there's documentation - provide it. Otherwise it just seems self forfilling .

Although if your previous statement regarding owning a 1968 S model built with rallykit is true. Then even if some paperwork was produced . Showing in writing , that it was the factories plan not to produce any. That does not mean it was adhered to. Again , if your statement is fact , about this italian car..............


I know Claudius Z. specialises in 1968. If there is a question regarding anything 1968 911. I would ask him.

Rennman
12-25-2010, 12:02 PM
It is contradictory. My Italian car was an anomoly. It was a fully trimmed ,undercoated S with Rally Kit and Sport Kit 2. It even had a radio and full sound deadening ect. It was special ordered by a group of 6 Italian rally drivers (Kardex confirmed) I have the US bullitin that shows the 68S Rally Kit was discontinued for 68. The person who gave it to me, a board member asked that it not get posted. The T Rally was the replacement with the S engine and stripped T body. If you reread what I stated from all accounts the Factory special cars that competed in the USA were all Ls or Ts. The Sport kit 2 was a small option consisting of exhaust megaphones, carb jets and venturis, carb tables and a catch can. A great option to have on a car today but not as desirable as Rally Kit car. The Rally Kit was the big option which transformed the car. A car ordered with the Rally Kit often had alot of other options ordered with it to go racing. The T became a different and much more valuable animal with this one option. These Rally Kit cars trade for 10 to 15 times the value of an ordinary L or T. A car with just the Sport Kit adds some value but not in multiples. The article that I cited though written about a 67S mentioned a new batch of three cars being ordered for 68. Where it was misleading was it would make one beleive it was an S they were describing. I own one of the cars the article mentioned and it is an L not an S. Another interesting note the documentation that I have states Sport kit can not be ordered without the rally Kit for 68 which I do not think was adheared to. I stand by my research that there were no 68S Rally Kit cars sent to the US for competition and I doubt there were any full optioned 68S Rally Kit cars raced anywhere else either. We can all cite our books but look at the actual cars that were raced. Especially by the big racers of the day. Raj I respectfully dissagree, there was plenty of money back then to race. Don Pike owned and raced multiple cars at the same time, as did Herb Wetenson, Bruce Jennings, Vasek Polack, Peter Gregg, just to name a few. The R had no where to race in the USA or anywhere else in GT. It had to be raced as a prototype where it was not competitive which I guess was a good thing as many remain today. These origianal very important 911s started the legacy for Porsche in GT racing which is why Porsche started the Sports Purpose program in the first place. It firmly established the 911 in GT racing.

Don

andrea70
12-25-2010, 01:20 PM
If somebody want to write the name of the 6 italian rally drivers, i could be know something......
I know in person at least 2 of them....
Best
Andrea

Rennman
12-25-2010, 01:43 PM
This is all just masturbation. It is like you are trying to tell us a dinasaur existed but the fossils that exist today are different. The Rally Kit cars for 68 were in fact Ts and Ls. They were well known cars then and many exist today. Through all of this not one documented 68S Rally kit car is cited as being raced here. I cited things that were in print that were not consistant however look at what was actually built. I have owned enough of these cars and spoken to enough old timers to know. There is no need to get personal. I do not care if you are a proctologist!

Don

Rennman
12-25-2010, 07:17 PM
Frank's car was indeed an S but it was not built with the Rally Kit. It was an S ordered with OTHER options to go racing. That car had full interior and S bumper trim at one point too. What is your point? The twin plug engine was not on the Kardex. It was an S engine. I had the chance to look at Frank's old car and review the paperwork. It was an S optioned car. No Rally Kit. The Big Racing option. Which is the debate here. Great car with a great history. I owned a US 911L (see Total 911 issue66) It was a simillar deal, no Rally Kit but with lots of race options. The R&T article was indeed misleading as I said. The cars they were referring to being ordered were built as 911Ls not 911Ss as the article infers. I have one of the cars they cite in the article in my garage. It is a Rally Kit L. What proof do you need? I own the car! The Rally kit was availible for the 67S when the article was done hence the option code.

These cars were only recently referred to S/R T/R L/R and even S/T. Ever see an S/T kardex? They show up as an S as the kardex on the T/R shows up as a T. The kardex for a T/R needs to show Rally Kit which had the S engine or 906 to be a "T/R". This thread started about Rally Kit cars for 68. Good try though Raj to once again prove me wrong...Can not wait to reveal my 66 prototype with factory installed R flares!

Don

Thomas lundeval
12-26-2010, 07:20 AM
Here I have made a list of the cars that I know of. Do you have any information about other cars that had 901-30 engine, I am grateful if you could let me know.
Thomas


<a href="http://s178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/?action=view&amp;current=2010-12-26-1603-19.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/2010-12-26-1603-19.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

912-2.8
12-26-2010, 08:34 AM
Raj and Don:
Do you guys appreciate how kewel it is to have these things in your own shed? Us mere mortals look at pictures and 'fake' our 906 engines with under-ground cranks, GT3 rods, jag cap distributers and the like.

Keep up the interesting details, it's fun reading. Just don't piss each other off, life is too short.

Get out and drive, put a simle on that face and enjoy getting to own a piece of history.

I'm going to go whip the 'hamster' in my 912 and smile a bit myself and pretend it's a 'tiger' (906) :-).

t

peekaboo
12-26-2010, 11:49 AM
raj

BTW just so you know it is not unusual to take delivery of a car with standard engine or without an engine from the factory for racing the kardex by itself does not give one all the story esp in a race car...........





(raj , it's funny , that you were getting into referencing early grp. 5 , just as I was writing a reply bringing it up )

First off, regarding cars bought sans motors ..... then on to 906/R type motors & grp. 5 :

One example of this (cars less motor) , just to start , is the Dr. Dalio 1968 911S . That is shown on this forum somewhere. Ordered less engine , then I believe he was ordering an R motor to follow. But then upped the order to a whole 911R car.

I will be posting over at the new thread started by raj , (http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...-Rennen-models) on anything related to any possible special 1968 911S 'plus' cars.

For one, either Porsche built more R spec. motors (even in 1968 MY) than is chronicled. Or distributors/dealers/privateers built a good amount. As if your a student of 1966 - 71 european circuit & rally racing. You will find not only many entries noted as "911S" (or mysteriously noted just "911" , when other 911 entries in the same race / differant group - have the model specifically noted) entered in "group 5" . You will also find cars listed as "911R" listed in group 6 , or referenced in period news reports as "911R" . That , if you can find photos of alot them , you will notice they don't have 911R fenders , or plexi windows , or R turn signals.

Group 5 :

"Group 5 was an FIA motor racing classification which was applied to four distinct categories during the years 1966 to 1982. Initially , Group 5 regulations defined a Special Touring Car category and from 1970 to 1971 the classification was applied to limited production Sports Cars restricted to 5 litre engine capacity."

As far as I can tell , raj is just callling it as the facts present themselves. If anyone thinks they can know it all. Unless you were there , in Europe , as part of the factory - building - or dealing with procurment. Or a customer procuring this stuff , there is no way you could know all of what actually happened. And all that was available.

Also , in 1969 (at least in Europe) , if you look closely at photo's . you will notice the majority of Porsche 911 racers were still using 1968 and earler cars.

I'm still waiting for Hugh. H , and Claudius Z. , to chime in.

Soterik
12-26-2010, 11:50 AM
This is a great thread.... Wish I owned one of these cars described. Though there is a little strong feelings on both sides, I don't think it's gone too far, and it also brings out facts and opinions that are important to the delineation of these vehicles. If I "could" contribute you know I would.....

tks,
Eric

Thomas lundeval
12-26-2010, 02:33 PM
Here is a list of more 911L who competed. Although some pictures.


http://www.racingsportscars.com/type/archive/Porsche/911%20L.html

Rennman
12-26-2010, 07:51 PM
Thomas great list. I was told that 15 68L Rally kit cars came to the USA. This seems to have been the accepted number. It came from John Kelly. Unfortunately he is no longer with us but he had kept alot of information on that car and loved it enough to be knowledgeable about those series of cars. I think the number may be on the high side if you look at what was raced here in 68. If that number is correct that would leave 13 cars for the rest of the world. I am going to try and get the chassis number on the Wetenson car. My friend sees him and maybe he still has some info.



The Dalio car was a standard fully trimmed/undercoated 68 911S street car that had the R parts added after the R was wrecked then put back on the R later. It was not a special racing version but converted by the owner. Kremer typically converted/built their own cars from standard versions rather than start with a factory special. They did that all the way through the 935 era. Well known, I did not dream it up. A Kremer 73S was just found complete. It was completely rebuilt by Kremer as a 73 RS lightweight in period. Documented with paperwork. I am not buying that Porsche rolled out cars without an engine. A bare body most likely but an incomplete car? Porsche was in business to make money. Why would they sell themselves short?

Don

Bantam
12-27-2010, 06:50 AM
A word of caution......

Really interesting thread (apart from the personal stuff, not interesting and shows nobody in a good light!) but just a word of caution as we try to research all this great history.........I have seen numerous period motor sport events where the entry list, including type of car, is assembled from individual entry sheets completed by the entrants and often pulled together by somebody with a limited understanding/knowledge, so the guy with the 911R writes "911" in the car model section and "911" is what it is in the programme for the event and so on; the same is often found with cubic capacity declarations.

Not a resaon to stop the debate or the detactive work....just something to keep in the back of the mind.

Regards

Flunder
12-27-2010, 07:05 AM
Thomas, Tim et al perhaps you could help me out on this (and get the thread back on track): I think the 901/30 included in its specs the 911S camshafts, pistons and cylinders, 40IDS carburetors, red shroud and yellow tag distributor all combined with 911Normal heads with the smaller ports/valves. Accordingly, the engine spec was quite special for the sports kit cars and not really equivalent to a standard production 911S spec motor. Is that correct and if so what was the factory's reasoning behind the use of the 911N heads? Thanks, Tom

Flunder
12-27-2010, 07:32 AM
Raj; Thanks. So a black fan shroud with S carbs, which had high speed enrichment circuits, longer duration S cams, 9.8 pistons and it seems the 911N heads. Perhaps the smaller ports of the 911N heads aided all-around drivability as the engine benefitted from higher port velocities in the lower engine speed range. in that era the factory was still a specialist manufacturer and the uniqueness of the sports kit 911L shows their desire to find the ideal combination for the needs of its equally unique clientele. It would be interesting to see a period image of a 901/30 sitting in a 911L. Thanks again for the specs, Tom

Flunder
12-27-2010, 08:19 AM
Raj: I had missed that view in the video that Thomas posted. I agree, that is a very interesting shot. I think most restorers put a red shroud on these 901/30 powered cars, which is incorrect based on the factory specs. I seem to recall that AndyBoy has a car done up with the engine bay detail of redundant Bosch coils and Bendix fuel pumps - a very business like look and based on my experience with old Bendix pumps, a very good idea too! Thanks, Tom

Flunder
12-27-2010, 09:18 AM
Raj; Thanks for posting all the documents. Is that a '68 door handle on the red number 5 car? Tom

Thomas lundeval
12-27-2010, 10:56 AM
Hallo Raj,

The photo of the engine are from Waldegard 911 (B 34880) in 1967 as he competed in 1967. The engine was built by Porsche mechanics on Scania Vabis rally team and had more hp than the orignal 130 hp. It was not the 911L, which he had 1968. The second photo is Helmer, who stands at Waldegard 911L 1968 at a service in the Gulf-London Rally 1968. Behind stands Lars Nyströms 911L and it is Nyströms co-driver standing next to Helmer.

<a href="http://s178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/?action=view&amp;current=CCI20070508_00000-1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/CCI20070508_00000-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Photo from Porsche rally team in Scania-Vabis garage in Södertälje Sweden.

peekaboo
12-27-2010, 11:18 AM
I'm slightly confused by one of the motor terms in those pages raj posted, explaining motors , and modifications.

So is the "2000R" motor refered to in the pages just posted (thread page 6), a 2000 'rally' motor ? Not a 906 / 911R type motor ? As the pages are refering to running it 40 IDS webers:

"Externally the 2000 R motor ..... it has a black shroud ......and Webers carburetors of the type 40 IDS" .

Didn't the 911R's use 46mm webers ? Or not always. Specifically noted on the 'INCREASING ENGINE PERFORMANCE' sheets, on a couple pages prior of this thread (thread page 4).

It states there : "Carburators type 46 - IDA 3C / 3C 1 (standard equipment on 911R)" . So this is a bit confusing ?

Is the "2000 R" motor a 911R spec motor ? And this just means a "2000 R" motor , could be being used in this referance cas meaning all but the 46mm webers and accompanying intakes ?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And regarding the referance by Bantam , about competitors entering their own model type . This might be true. But...

....even though it's 1969 , here's an example of what i'm speaking of .....

(I'm moving this to) :

http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...-Rennen-models

Flunder
12-27-2010, 12:43 PM
peekaboo: The 2000R equates to a single ignition 901/30 with 40IDS whilst the 911R designation equates to a twin ignition 901/22 with 46IDA. The distinction is that a 2000R was a rally motor built with a combination of production car bits whilst the 911R was essentially a 906 full race motor using mostly special race parts. Hope this clears it up.

Thomas lundeval
12-28-2010, 08:58 AM
Found this information on one old thread from 2008 on Early 911S Registry.

<a href="http://s178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/?action=view&amp;current=2010-12-28-1207-21.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/2010-12-28-1207-21.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Thomas lundeval
12-28-2010, 11:30 AM
Raj

Here is the thread.

http://www.early911sregistry.org/forums/showthread.php?50203

Thomas

Rennman
12-29-2010, 06:40 AM
They were lighter. Porsche did not undercoat or use any sound deadening pads on these cars. No rear jumpseats or radio. Bucket seats were lighter too...

Don

70SATMan
12-29-2010, 11:55 AM
My question was indirect did the 68 ROW L have less coating-but more importantly i would assume all chassis were without any type of coating and these cars had no coating applied or did they all have coatings and these cars had them removed in the production process and the ROW L had less coating and that is why they were used ???What if any production differences in the chassis are there between euro 911L and US 911L


with rally opt came with delete but otherwise could be spec'ed spearate.

raj

Well, the sidelights and smog pumps come to mind as well for the US L vs the ROW L. I rather guess the homologation was not entirely model name specific but, specific in chassis/model differences which the US and ROW 911Ls definitely had. This would account for the distinct chassis VINs used.

Flunder
12-29-2010, 03:07 PM
I always thought that the guys going Sedan racing in the Trans Am Series got the 911L while the sports car guys racing in SCCA C Production received the 911T and 911S. There was of course some cross pollenization as time wore on post-1968.

Chuck Miller
12-29-2010, 04:59 PM
This is a GREAT thread....

The cars with their VINs you can historically account for is one thing (and great)

However, once they started competing here in the States Tom has a point.......

The SCCA had everything to do with how and what you entered in a class. And as was said, '68 was one of the most transitional...(read weird and arbitrary)

In '66 a 911 would run in D-Production. Jerry Titus won many races in Vasek's first racing 911.

In '67 911's and 911S's were up'ed (appropriately) to C-Production or B-Sedan (strange call) Davey Jordan won the championship in Vasek's first C-Production 911S.

In '68 911's, 911S's, and 911L's, ran in C-Production, B-Sedan (for the last year) and 2.0 TransAm.

Even the method SCCA classed cars wasn't consistent; sometimes using engine size to weight, engine power to weight, engine efficiency to weight, body style... and of course reserving the right to disqualify a car's eligibility on general (read political) purposes.

I don't remember VIN's being checked in all this classing...
I would suspect there was some equipment, weights, and even badges that got shifted around...

Rennman
12-29-2010, 06:52 PM
The TA Ls are listed with the ROW vins because they were optioned cars not a seperate model just as the "TR"s carry ROW T chassis# not a special or seperate number. The USA and Euro L were fitted out differently. Basically the Euro L was trimmed like a standard T and the US L trimmed like an S. The tubs themselves were all the same aside from rear swaybar mounts which were optional on the Euro car and came on the USA car. Both had the rear parcel shelf provision for the safety harnesses. Undercoat was the same on all the cars I have ever seen and deleted only on the factory specials. It was left off not removed and the bottoms and compartments painted semi flat black.

Chuck I know these guys would change the 911S emblems on the rear deck to 911. Jennings did that on a 67S they campaigned and I think the Pacific NW car as well. I think there was a point where the S may not have been allowed (hence the Ls) or were these guys just playing down their machinery?

Don

Rennman
12-29-2010, 08:33 PM
Those weights I would think are for the Rally Kit cars for the simple reason I do not think you could have that much difference between the other cars. The "TR" being the lighest by deletion of mostly interior parts not having any of the rear interior panels, glove box door, pass. side visor, clock, rear seat bottoms, headliner bows, just light perlon and no rear guards. The door panels were much simpler as well. That might give you the 100 plus pounds. There is no way from that picture to tell exactly what the Burns car started out as. It is a US 68 judging by the lights (though some of the 68TA cars had US lights). Probably a converted street car. I do not ever remember hearing or reading Burns having a TA L Rally. The stripe below the side script may be a clue. It could be covering up narrow deco holes. A US L had wide S decos. If it were a Factory TA L or Special the script would be lower below the door but they are just stickers and could have been changed around but again that stripe looks like the same size as to mimic a narrow deco. I would say a US 911 converted if I had to bet. Anyone know where that car is??

Don

Thomas lundeval
12-30-2010, 05:28 AM
Conducted a study of weight at some 911L. Have access to the old Swedish registration dokument and where it says how much the car weighed when cars first approved to use the roads. It also contains three pieces of 911 TR cars to see the difference. Maybe it could be anyone of any use.


911L 118107XX Normal car 1150 kg

911L 11810437 Normal car 1140 kg

911L 11810438 Rally car 1120 kg

911L 11810439 Rally car 1120 kg

911L 11810540 Rally car 1100 kg

911L 118107XX Rally car 1100 kg

911TR 11820421 Rally car 1110 kg

911TR 11820422 Rally car 1110 kg

911TR 118204XX Race car 1090 kg

Thomas

Flunder
12-30-2010, 09:56 AM
If you have a 911L trans am car, your CoA should read like this (pretty much like Rennman said it should):

Rennman
12-30-2010, 12:31 PM
In real life practice i suspect there was miniscule difference in actual weight between the 911,911L,911T,911S unless higher level of trim was required to be maintained.Then again why would one order higher trim level and pay a higher price to the factory only to remove it to go racing.That is the most likely reason other chassis types were used over the S chassis JMO-it's about cost and being practical.
raj[/QUOTE]

So now this thread comes full circle.... This is why the factory race cars for 68 in the USA and likely ROW were the TA Ls and the T Rally models. The Lightest varients of their model. Well known information. Why did you argue that they were Ss?? You now admit what I have stated all along. Unbelieveable.

Some of the factory entries were Red cars. The customer cars were whatever the customer ordered. Light Ivory was considered the "Racing" color of the period. I have heard the paint weighed the least. I guess it all adds up.

Don

peekaboo
12-30-2010, 12:49 PM
"This is why the factory race cars for 68 in the USA and likely ROW were the TA Ls and the T Rally models".

Rennman.

Maybe i'm wrong, but I don't believe your catching on to what actually was the debate. It seems now your statement is refering to factory "werks" cars. When prior , I believe. most were refering to race cars made by the factory (special models / standard models ordered with special upgrades / upgrade kits / parts & pieces. Sold to outside parties.

Which is obviously , two differant things.

Even on what would be considered a "factory owned werks" car. Without being there, and knowing every car which was built. Given/loaned to various people to run in various events. I would be hestitant to make an absolute judgement on anything like that. No one can know unless they were there. Or a car outside your claim turns up with bulletproof documentation.

70SATMan
12-30-2010, 01:54 PM
I agree with you that's what i thought-til i saw this photo, what would that make this car a ROW or US L?

raj

Side markers, turn signal indicator color and sugar scoop headlights are present which tells me its a US 68. No other exterior clues in the picture indicate what the model is. I could take the trim off a T, L or S equally easily, heh heh. Also, it's sporting the passenger visor.

Rennman
12-30-2010, 05:42 PM
Peekaboo, I get the debate. I have stated all along the competition Rally Kit cars sent to the USA in 68 were the TA L and T Rally and the S Rally Kit was discontinued in 68 in favor of the TR. Thats it. I know the werkes cars could be anything. The only known 68S Rally Kit car to surface was the car I owned (kardex shown in this thread) and was an Italian delivered car that was an anomoly. Without anyone being able to come up with a chassis number for 68S Rally Kit car that was campaigned here in the US (let alone anywhere else). I stand by my research. There were none.

Raj I know why you don't see the Kelly and Pike cars show up where you are looking but I will let you figure that out on your own :)

Don

HughH
12-31-2010, 07:55 PM
Here is a link to a very detailed photo history of this car in 1968 and 1969 as well as its restoration

http://www.kzmotorsports.com/911L.html

there are photos that include other cars in the series
well worth a look.


Raj

i don't have homologation papers for the 1968L. I do have the Gp3 and Gp 4 for the T/R and the Gp3 was signed on 1 jan 1968.

the 68L may be a bit messy to find as there may be a difference in timing between it being legal as a sedan in the US for Trans-Am and the FIA homologation for Gp 3 or 4

peekaboo
01-01-2011, 08:56 AM
Well, Happy New Year to all.

This is not relating to this discussion directly, but since allowable modifications for some groups have been posted. I'm just wondering about this (changing of pieces from a production car piece standard base material to ones manufactured of a differant material). If this is a question better suited to the other "special build" thread I can move it there if need be. But I thought I'd start here.


This is an interesting provision in group 2 :

"p) Finishing off: all perfecting operations by finishing of machining the original mechanical parts, but not their replacement, except with regard to springs, pistons and camshaft(s) as specified above under sections j and m. The term "Mechanical Parts" covers all those included in the propulsion system, the steering system, the suspension and the braking system as well as accessories necessary for the normal operation of these systems. In other words, provided it is always possible to acsertain unquestionably the origin of the series-production part, it may be rectified, balanced, lightened, reduced, or modified with regard to the shape through tooling, to the exclusion of any addition of material or any mechanical extension or of any process involving a change of the characteristics of the molecular structure or of the surface of the metal."

That leaves alot of leeway for custom work to parts.

But since this sentence :

"to the exclusion of any addition of material or any mechanical extension or of any process involving a change of the characteristics of the molecular structure......of the metal."

(maybe this is a dumb question , but here goes)

Seemingly, this means you could not change the base material of the part ? (titainium rods..etc. vs. steel). So what racing group would titainum rods be allowable ? (or a change in any part , in general , from one base material to another. That was not a standard piece that was in the production models comprising the build number requirement of that group).

None ? So changes like that were for Prototype / group 6 and above only ? If so, did this rule change in later years . So that any type of more specialised piece (lighter / stronger metal ..or whatever) was allowable in lower number groups (group 5 or below) in later years ?


Plus, how would any scrutineers even know if an internal part of a motor or transmission (or anything) was made out of titainum or a differant base material vs. the production piece base material ? I know they could could . But didn't disassembling motors, and other serious teardown or REAL hard scrutiny. Really only occur after a protest by other teams ?

Obviously cheating , in this regard , had to have had occured.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had started to post the link to claudius's 1968 911S sportkit 2 car , earlier in this thread as an example of a 1968 911S model , with a factory competitition type 'kit' added in it's build.

But I was not sure if it qualified in this discussion, as the kit was seemingly named 'sport'kit, not 'rally'kit. And rallykit , was the kit type being most referenced earlier. So I deleted it.

And I didn't know (and still am not understanding) if this car , and the italian one Rennman owned . Were the same car ?

Soterik
01-01-2011, 10:19 AM
Here's my fathers 1968 price list with all options offered.

Soterik
01-01-2011, 12:10 PM
Here's the 1967 "sports purpose" manual, first 4 pages.

Thomas lundeval
01-05-2011, 12:44 PM
Here is an update on the list for 901-30 engine. It is Porsche 911L 11810508 which competed season 1969. Team Scania Vabis used only one car 1969. Both Waldegard, Ake Andersson competed with the car even Formula 1 driver Ronnie Peterson started in KAK-rally 1970 with the car. I will return with engine number later. It is the only 911L as I have seen with 155 hp in the first registration document. The car has had the same owner since 1982.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/2011-01-05-2041-39.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/2008-09-08-1111-30_redigerad.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/BB30201.jpg

Thomas lundeval
01-10-2011, 02:39 AM
Raj,

Waldegard did not drive the Le Mans 1968. But Sten Axelsson drove a Lola T 70 GT 5.0, together with Ulf Norinder.

Thomas lundeval
01-10-2011, 02:49 AM
Saw an ad on a Porsche 911L 11810499 was for sale, Fred Baker car.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/bigc.jpg
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/bigh.jpg
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/bigi.jpg

Porsche 911 L "Lightweight"
European Vintage Car Co.

Farbe Polored
Innenausstattung Black
Lenkung Links
Typ Coupé
Baujahr 1968
Chassis Nr. 118.1.0449
Preis 300.700 EUR
MwSt Nein
Stadt Cave Creek, Arizona
Land

http://www.classicdriver.de/de/find/4100_results.asp?&dealerid=12229&lCarID=1812940



Fred Baker ordered this Porsche 911 L in 1968 directly from the factory in order to participate with success to the Trans- Am Championship in 1968 and 1969. Only 15 Porsche 911 L "Lightweight" has been manufactured 4 or 5 came to the USA the rest has been used mostly in Rallies in Europe. This car is a true factory race car and not a street version 911 L dressed up as a race car. In February 1973 Bill Lanphear purchased the 911 L from Century Motors in Orange County. he was told that they raced it in 1970 and the last half of 1971. The car ran in C- production won a 1st place finish with milt Minter in 1970.information about the car. The Porsche has been completely restored. It is also the only known 911 L in the Trans-Am race history who never crashed while racing and the only used car, Porsche has featured in the cover of a Porsche catalog in the fall of 1968.

Rennman
01-10-2011, 05:30 PM
It is the car featured on the cover of the 1969? Porsche racing brochure (not model line). I do not have mine in front of me so forgive the description but it is a neat cover. If anyone is interested in buying the car I can put you in touch with the owner.

Don

davep
01-11-2011, 06:19 AM
Don, could you contact the owner and see if you can obtain the missing information in the chart above (eng #, etc). The engine build #'s for any of these engines would be very useful to know. There were apparently only 4 built on the aluminum case.

Thomas lundeval
01-20-2011, 05:07 AM
Here are some pictures how the engine of 911L rally car looked like. The images are from the Gulf London Rally 1968 Åke Anderssons car BB 4300 and Lars Nyströms car BB 4151.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/2011-01-20-1317-18.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/2011-01-20-1328-39.jpg
Lennart Svensk.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/2011-01-20-1330-19.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/2011-01-20-1315-21.jpg

HughH
01-20-2011, 11:35 PM
fantastic photos Thomas

Thomas lundeval
01-24-2011, 02:49 AM
Add some pictures to the car for service during a break in Gulf-London rally 1968.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/2011-01-20-1323-54.jpg
Nysröm/Svensk 911L.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/2011-01-20-1333-31.jpg
Lars Nyström.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/2011-01-20-1331-48.jpg

Thomas lundeval
02-03-2011, 12:47 AM
Have looked at a rally 911L (Nystrom rally car). VIN numbers match remained in the radio side, and the old paint tangerine on the instrument panel. Also found foot support for driver`s left foot. Here are a few pictures.




http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/2011-01-20-1257-15.jpg
1968.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/DSC01132.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/DSC01136.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/DSC01152.jpg

Rennman
02-03-2011, 06:23 PM
That is awsome. Do you have any other pictures of the car today?

Don

Thomas lundeval
02-04-2011, 01:09 PM
Here are some more pictures that I am ready to put out right now.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/2011-01-20-1348-18.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/DSC01208.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/DSC01183.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/DSC01222.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/DSC01234.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/DSC01250.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/DSC01256.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/DSC01255.jpg

bob tilton
04-24-2011, 11:40 PM
Bump...please.

Thomas lundeval
07-08-2011, 08:22 AM
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/tomlargo%201/2011-01-21-1214-23.jpg

Porsche 911L photo from 1969.

Thomas lundeval
07-19-2011, 01:21 PM
Does anyone know which Porsche 911 L Robert Stoddard drove in several races in 1970 in Germany.

12.4.1970 Hockenheim [GT2.0/T2.0] no 127 Porsche 911 L Robert Stoddard 8th

14.6.1970 DARM Hockenheim [GT+1.3] no 59 Porsche 911 L Robert Stoddard Moezinger Racing Team ?th

21.6.1970 DARM Mainz-Finthen [GT2.0] Porsche 911 L Robert Stoddard 13th

peekaboo
07-29-2011, 11:54 AM
I was reading a write-up by Symbolic Motors on the ex-Herb Wetanson car (118 1 0429).

They imply that all of these 901/30 motors were built to this spec. Is that true ? (I don't remember all of these items being part of the general spec. on these motors . From this description , a motor like this would be far more powerful than an S) :

"The original engine fitted to this car “388 0008” is one very important clue to the unique nature and race preparation given to this car while being assembled. This was one of just 28 Porsche Factory Type 901/30 FIA homologated Group 2 “Rally” engines built for the 1968 race season. As indicated by the individual engine number this would have sequentially been the 8th example built in this small production run. The type 901/30 engine used the best components from Porsche’s extensive racing parts bin. The main changes were the fitting of titanium connecting rods, fiberglass wrapped cylinder-head studs, cylinder heads with larger intake and exhaust valves, camshafts with a different profile, raised compression ratio pistons, 46mm rather than 40mm triple-choke, Weber, down-draft carburetors, open velocity stacks with rain-shields, separate front-mounted, oil-cooler and a "Sport-Kit” free-flowing set of headers and exhaust resonator."


If not , is it documented that even this example's motor was built to this spec. ?

Rennman
07-29-2011, 12:18 PM
The 901/30 rally engine was not the spec they are describing. The Sport Purpose manual has an acurate description. 46 Webbers were definitely not used.

Don

TRE Cup
07-29-2011, 06:29 PM
Hi Guys
this one is here in the shop. We've been working on it off/ on and hope to have it up and running for Rennsport in October. The car was shown at the Trans Am Reunion at the Petersen Museum November 2009, but it is not a runner yet. More details as we move along with the work.

TRE Cup
07-29-2011, 06:33 PM
here are pics

Thomas lundeval
02-10-2012, 04:42 AM
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/Tomlargo%202/Untitled-1.jpg

Thomas lundeval
02-13-2012, 09:39 AM
Update of the Porsche 911L 1968 Racing / Rally cars with engine 901-30. A new car will be added to the list VIN number 11810705 with the engine now 3880027 one the last manufactured engine
type 901-30. The car was equipped as a rally car. And run rallies in Sweden.


http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/Tomlargo%202/2012-02-13-1812-37.jpg
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/Tomlargo%202/2012-02-13-1815-20.jpg

davidbir
02-13-2012, 05:52 PM
In about 1991 I found one of these cars. It had been bought in as a total wreck by Bob LeFluffy of Vancouver with the intention of restoring it but he found it was just in too sad condition for what everyone--including the local Porsche experts--concluded was just a beat up, engineless, old SWB Porsche. But I was not so easily deterred-this car just gave off an "aura of reek" that I could taste.
At the time I was working for a VW/Audi dealer as a service manager so I had access to factory records. I duly sent off the serial number to, would it have been Howard Adams?, who responded with the build sheet for the car showing it was a factory built 1968 rally car!
Bob LeFluffy was a friend and while I could have bought the car off him for $5k as it was I felt that I should tell him of my research... I subsequently offered Bob $20K (!) and was turned down. He eventually sold the car off for less I think when he was in danger of going bankrupt (Remember the downtrend of classic car prices in the early nineties?)
Unfortunately I no longer have a record of the serial number and Bob died a couple of years ago. does anybody have any idea which car this would have been from my poor description? It had come from the Georgia area I learned but the person who had owned it down there would never answer phone calls. It was red, had a floor that looked like the surface of the moon, so it had definately been rallied but had been repainted silver by the time Bob sold it.

Rennman
02-13-2012, 06:50 PM
I know the car. It still exists. It is a 67 though if it the same car. That is all I can say.

Don

davidbir
02-13-2012, 07:03 PM
Is it special?:o

Rennman
02-13-2012, 07:54 PM
If it is the same car the Kardex read "Rally Equiptment" It was not detailed as the 68 cars that I have seen. I do not know the early history of it.

Don

davidbir
02-14-2012, 08:07 AM
That sounds familiar-there was just the terse statement on the Kardex. Twenty years later and we still don't know more... Where is the car now? Any chance of a photo?
In the early nineties I was obsessed with the ex Patrick McNally car that ran in the Springbok Series in south Africa and then had quite a career in the UK. Chassis 11820884. This car that Bob LeFluf found seemed to be the answer to my dream. It needed a LOT though.

platas
02-14-2012, 11:00 AM
Is this the same car ?
http://www.classicdriver.com/uk/find/4100_results.asp?&dealerid=10448&lCarID=1828833

ajwans
02-14-2012, 01:45 PM
Is this the same car ?
http://www.classicdriver.com/uk/find/4100_results.asp?&dealerid=10448&lCarID=1828833

Restoration by Andy Prill? Wasn't that the guy who certified the faked RS: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/365081-73-rs-fraud-must-read-19.html

andy

davidbir
02-14-2012, 03:03 PM
Is this the same car ?
http://www.classicdriver.com/uk/find/4100_results.asp?&dealerid=10448&lCarID=1828833

Yes, that is the car I lusted after but not the car I found!
I really would like to learn more about the car that was in Vancouver in the early nineties-I have moved several times since then and whatever material I had on it is long gone.

davidbir
02-18-2012, 05:34 PM
To my great surprise I found a copy of a fax I had sent to Brian Powley, the owner of the car that won the Springbok series, requesting his help in finding the history on "my" car. On this fax (from 1992) I have described the car as 911 #308107 but those last six are the engine number are they not? Rats!!
Does this help identify the car?

Edit: Checked "The Porsche Book" and it is a correct, albeit 1967 chassis number...

Thomas lundeval
08-09-2012, 02:28 AM
Some pictures of the start of the KAK Rally 1969 (Swedish Rally). Four Porsches 911L with rally equipment from the factory and 901/30 engine started at the rally. Waldegard won the rally and Leif Nilsson place 11 and place 19 for Jan Persson, Lars Nyström was breaking the rally. The rally was run for 3 days and the length was 2700 km and 1300 km, was speed runs.
It was extremely cold during rally down to -42 cellsius, but Porsche 911L won the Rally.










http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/rally%20vintern%201969/2012-08-07-1158-24-1.jpg
VIN 11810439 Engine 3880006





http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/rally%20vintern%201969/2012-08-07-1159-40-1.jpg
VIN 11810508




http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/rally%20vintern%201969/2012-08-07-1146-48-1.jpg
VIN 1180540 Engine 3880019



http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/rally%20vintern%201969/2012-08-07-1150-05-2.jpg
VIN 11810705 Engine 3880027

brakekiller
08-27-2012, 08:06 AM
Dear members,

I am quite new on this specific forum. I am seeking detailed information about the Sport Engine (2.0 L with S parts), the sport kit and the rally kit. The purpose is a 911L 1968 FIA group 2 project.
I am in close link with Porsche classic dpt here in France to get information, but I beleive you would have the info out of the shelf. I will post the data I gather from Porsche as soon as I have them.

All the best.

Xavier

(membership number pending)

ajwans
08-27-2012, 04:36 PM
Xavier, the document you need is called "Information Regarding PORSCHE Vehicles Used for Sports Purposes"

Also there is an early technical bulletin dated 4/67 "Instructions on the preparation of Porsche cars for participation in competition events"

You might be able to find these documents online, paper versions sometimes come up on eBay.

andy

brakekiller
08-28-2012, 02:09 AM
Thnak you very much Andy. Start seeking.

Thomas lundeval
12-11-2012, 04:26 AM
Have a question if anyone knows why the Certificates and the Kardex 911L rally car 901/30 only stands rally equipment on them. Where they all exact same fitted all rally cars. Have an old fax from Porsche Stuttgart in 1986 where they write how this car was equipped. Unfortunately, the paper has become old and difficult to read. But what I have seen of them American certificates that you get a better specification. Could it be because you equipped race cars a little different. Had Porsche 911L rally cars one exact same rally package?

Another question was that engine 901/30 in other rally / race cars type T and S cars or were all 29 engines to 911L cars, understand that some engines must have been spare engines to some rally / race cars?






http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/BB%201991/2010-11-17-1003-11.jpg http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/BB%201991/2010-11-17-0949-10.jpg http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/BB%201991/DSC00002.jpg

Thomas lundeval
03-12-2013, 12:42 AM
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/rally%20vintern%201969/2012-11-10-1426-30-1.jpg



Some information about 911 L of Group 2 rally car in 1968, in German but maybe one of our German members may be able to translate.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/BB%201991/DSC03621_zps0a433494.jpg
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/BB%201991/DSC03622_zpse2b9893b.jpg

Thomas lundeval
05-19-2013, 03:07 AM
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/blandat%20911/DSC03624_zpsc0e8cb41.jpg (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/tomlargo/media/blandat%20911/DSC03624_zpsc0e8cb41.jpg.html)

Thomas lundeval
08-10-2013, 03:58 AM
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/BB%201991/InfofromChristophorusNr88September1967_zpse4ed377c .jpg (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/tomlargo/media/BB%201991/InfofromChristophorusNr88September1967_zpse4ed377c .jpg.html)

From Christophorus no 88 September 1967.

Thomas lundeval
08-29-2013, 01:12 AM
Porsche 911L 1968 901/30 Racing/Rally car sold at Goodings Auction in Monterey for $583,000.

VIN 11810486
Eng 3880009


http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1968-porsche-911-l/

http://www.canepa.com/inventory/racecar/1968%20Porsche%20911L/
http://www.finecars.cc/en/detail/car/24584/index.html

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/blandat%20911/0a943c0371_zps8c904dcb.jpg

brakekiller
08-30-2013, 01:32 AM
Some of you are aware of my fascination for the 911 L "Lightweight" 1968 Grp2
I have not seen these pictures before on the Sreg. They are from Vintage Stuttgart on FB. There are some nice comments from Tony Adamowicz

"the first pic is Bruce Jennings / Herb Wetanson in no. 18 and Bob Bailey in no 22 Porsche 911 light weights battling out on the front straight of 1968 Lime Rock trans am.under 2 liter"
262678

"the MR no.7 under two liter winner battling it out with Mark Donahue's Penske Camaro on the front straight of Lime Rock park 1968 trans am race. The MR no 7 was often in the mix of the five liter TA cars. That was a great season winning Six out of 10 races and finishing 2nd in two others, virtually dominating under two series. The SCCA rules allowed removal of rear bumpers on no.7 which aided in engine/ trans axle removal for the many gear changes, also aided in top speed with out rear bumper drag / weight. Eventually others caught on to doing the same"
262679

"no7 under 2 liter trans am leader Milestone Racing driver Tony Adamowicz"
262680

rs27rules
08-30-2013, 09:12 AM
nice pictures

brakekiller
08-30-2013, 09:52 AM
some more from the same source :D
262708262709262710

vivancos9263
08-30-2013, 11:00 AM
I do have a 68 S european version with Rally equipment from the factory. Is there really a increase in value on it because it is a rally? Or is just a nice optioned
normal car? Thanks

jimhuiz
08-30-2013, 01:13 PM
I do have a 68 S european version with Rally equipment from the factory. Is there really a increase in value on it because it is a rally? Or is just a nice optioned
normal car? Thanks

Definite increase in value with a factory rallye kit...please post more, perhaps in your own thread.

brakekiller
08-31-2013, 02:44 AM
This would defintly re-open the can....

vivancos9263
08-31-2013, 08:02 AM
I definitely don't want to re-open any can. I'll start another thread with some more info. Thanks

brakekiller
08-31-2013, 08:15 AM
I definitely don't want to re-open any can. I'll start another thread with some more info. Thanks

This would be more benificial for you and you car - will be very insteresting to see this car and whcih options are in :D.
Look forward to this.

Thanks.
Xavier

Thomas lundeval
09-04-2013, 01:06 AM
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/blandat%20911/933544c0-dd09-4d83-86c3-a2f0bce66918_zps9e7a9d56.jpg (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/tomlargo/media/blandat%20911/933544c0-dd09-4d83-86c3-a2f0bce66918_zps9e7a9d56.jpg.html)

brakekiller
09-08-2013, 10:05 AM
Just wonder :

a) Is the 1969 FIA group 2 (sedan) homologation only valid in the USA for the 1968 normale and the L models ? (Rules changed in 1970, I beleive the 911 Normale and L could not be in homologated in Group 1 and 2 anymore after 1969- the T and the S remained Group 3 and 4 - Not to mention the Normale and L homologated within the 1969 rules in group 1 and 2 could compete until 1971, I think)


b) Does any one get the homologation sheets for group2 1969 911 Normale and L?


Edit : According to the "Information Regarding Porsche Vehicules Used for Sports Purposes 1968", the 911 normale and the L are FIA Touring Car Group 2. However within the Homologated form downloaded from the FIA website, I cannot find the 911 L being homolagted group2 even with USA tag. The only 911 homologated in group 2 is written as :

Homologation form:1451 / group:2 / model:Porsche 911 / displ :1991 / homologation date :01.01.1966

The only L homologated is a Targa and not in group 2 !
Homologation form:579 / group 3 / model:Porsche 911 L Targa / displ :1991 / homologation date 01.01.1968.

Please help me sorting this out !

All the best.
Xavier

Thomas lundeval
01-24-2014, 01:08 AM
At last another 911L 1968 racing / rally with 901-30 engine found after many years in a garage. It was found in Finland. It was delivered new to AAW Racing Team in Finland well known Porsche team of 60-70 century in Finland, where the well-known racing driver Leo Kinnunen run for. VIN numer is 11810514. The car is currently located in the United States at the Porsche company PORsport.com.

Link to car http://www.porsport.com/68_lightweight

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/BB%201991/image4_zpsfc9ff20a.jpg (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/tomlargo/media/BB%201991/image4_zpsfc9ff20a.jpg.html)

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/BB%201991/image2_zpse6d7c265.jpg (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/tomlargo/media/BB%201991/image2_zpse6d7c265.jpg.html)

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/BB%201991/image3_zpsa03279a6.jpg (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/tomlargo/media/BB%201991/image3_zpsa03279a6.jpg.html)

ibmiked
01-24-2014, 07:17 AM
I like to kid Don that he has a lucky horseshoe up his butt, but now I'm beginning to think it's a magnet for historically important SWB 911s instead.

Bill Simmeth
01-24-2014, 07:29 AM
I like to kid Don that he has a lucky horseshoe up his butt, but now I'm beginning to think it's a magnet for historically important SWB 911s instead.
I'm sure the magnet helps, but you probably know better than anyone he certainly works hard to make his "luck" happen.

Thomas lundeval
02-13-2014, 12:22 AM
Photo of the Finnish 911L with 901-30 engine VIN 11810514 from a rally in Finland.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/BB%201991/bild_zps1c31c4e3.jpg (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/tomlargo/media/BB%201991/bild_zps1c31c4e3.jpg.html)

Thomas lundeval
03-19-2014, 03:07 PM
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/blandat%20911/PORSCHE911LdeKAUHSENKELLENERSKREMERwinner24HSPA196 8_zpsb9c351fa.jpg (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/tomlargo/media/blandat%20911/PORSCHE911LdeKAUHSENKELLENERSKREMERwinner24HSPA196 8_zpsb9c351fa.jpg.html)

Willi Kauhsen and Helmut Kelleners 24 hours at SPA 1968 where do would have competed with a 911L, anybody know if there is a 911L and maybe VIN number?

hopo
03-19-2014, 04:53 PM
Hello
Winter photo - Seems to be mr AAW him self driving his personal car, Artic rally -70 ?
hopo

joegt3cup
03-20-2014, 12:05 PM
I'm sure the magnet helps, but you probably know better than anyone he certainly works hard to make his "luck" happen.

Their is another saying... "the harder you work the luckier you are"

Heritage
05-05-2014, 11:25 AM
Hello Gentlemen, I am very new here and hoping to get some information from those of you that are much more knowledgeable on this subject then I.
I have Bob Bailey's 911L at my shop. He does not plan on racing it anymore and would like to bring the car closer to how it was when he got it in '68. It has been 46 years and a lot of changes over that time. Does any of you have some good info/pictures of how the interior would have looked when he took delivery? I know some of the basics like seat, door panels and roll bar. Any factual info on any part of the car would be much appreciated. Thanks. Jason

Thomas lundeval
07-24-2014, 09:32 AM
Looked in my binder that is from the 60's with service announcement mm for Porsche workshops in Sweden comes from Porsche's headquarters in Södertälje. There is a code for engine type designations. And at the bottom of the page you can see the 901/30 engine
6 cyl 150 HP Racing Engine with construction elements from type 901/06 made ​​since July 1967

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/BB%201991/bild4_zpsa1a29620.jpg (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/tomlargo/media/BB%201991/bild4_zpsa1a29620.jpg.html)http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/BB%201991/bild3_zps862a6c50.jpg (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/tomlargo/media/BB%201991/bild3_zps862a6c50.jpg.html)

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/BB%201991/bild2_zps9046bc68.jpghttp://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/BB%201991/bild_zpsd08e0240.jpg (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/tomlargo/media/BB%201991/bild_zpsd08e0240.jpg.html)

jdj123
07-27-2014, 10:48 PM
bonjour Xavier,
contactez moi au 0611916915 si vous cherchez encore (et toujours) les pièces nécessaires à la réalisation de votre projet.

cordialement,
Jean-Dominique.

Thomas lundeval
08-16-2014, 04:18 AM
Update of the list, two cars are added.


http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/BB%201991/2014-08-16-1303-47_zps7aa3a4a4.jpg

Thomas lundeval
08-19-2014, 12:46 AM
Auction at Porsche 911L 1968 John Kelly racing car 11810486 with 901-30 engine sold for $583,000 at Pebble Beach 18-Aug-2013.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCNeZkSaO28



http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/blandat%20911/122_Porsche_1968_911L_Coupe_11810486_900_zps564f8f f3.jpg

Just a few short years into Porsche’s production of the 911, cars were appearing at all sorts of racing venues around the globe. The desire from private drivers to acquire specialty 911s for racing purposes was growing. To answer the influx of requests for a competition model, in 1968 Porsche developed a lightweight, racing 911 L specially fitted with the 901/30 engine. Factory records indicate 28 such engine numbers (3880001–3880028) although there is no definitive knowledge of how many cars were built. Today, just nine of these special 911 Ls are recorded, and fewer thought to remain.
Each of these competition 911 Ls was a European-specification L model outfitted with the rally kit, the sport kit 2, a roll bar, a limited-slip differential, lowered Koni suspension, a leather-covered steering wheel, and “Porsche” side script. Furthermore, the cars were void of sound deadening and undercoating and were otherwise trimmed like a 912. Final delivery specifications varied from car to car, based on expected use and ultimately the buyer’s requests.









This car.

In October 1967, John Kelly received a Western Union telegram from Porsche of America stating, “Porsche Factory offered us a limited number of modified 911 R Racing car with 210 DIN HP, light body and other racing features. Weight approx 850 kg. Price ex factory US dollar 11,250 plus landed cost expense. If interested please call Monday since cars have to be ordered for December production.”
Little more was needed and John Kelly, an SCCA champion familiar with Porsche’s on-track capability, placed an order for one of these special race-built 911s. The Kardex and certificate of authenticity confirm that “0486” was fitted with 901/30 engine 3880009, a rally kit, a limited-slip differential, a sport kit for “911 L,” a leather steering wheel, a roll bar, low-consistency suspension, Porsche lettering left and right, and a special transmission (9282017) for “race cars on airfields.” Invoiced through Heishman Porsche Audi of Arlington, Virginia, Kelly took delivery of his new, Tangerine 911 in March 1968.
Kelly’s intent, no doubt, was to race the 911, but shortly after taking delivery of the car he was hired by Triumph to race TR4s in Group 44 competition. Kelly decided to use the 911 as a daily driver and had it road registered. In 1969, however, Kelly received the opportunity to put the Porsche to competitive use at Marlboro for the Refrigerator Bowl. The car was driven to the event with time for little more than applying race numbers before the green flag dropped. By the second lap the 911 was in the lead, and from there won handily.
For more than a decade, the 911 L remained a driver until finding retirement in Kelly’s garage. In the 1990s, Kelly’s wife Susann Miller caught the vintage racing bug and had the 911 prepped for racing, which included upgrading the original engine to 2.5-liter specifications. The Porsche was raced until 2005, per the logbooks that accompany the car. Shortly after, the car was sold and subsequently restored by Porsche specialists Canepa Design.
Given the 911’s long-term ownership and minimal racing career, it stands as an exceptionally correct and original example, worthy of restoration. The original engine was completely re-manufactured with ported and flowed heads, Carrillo rods, special factory rally cams, proper Porsche rain hats, and factory sport kit megaphone exhaust. All glass, lights, and trim fitted were Porsche NOS parts. The car was finished with “Deep Six” and “Seven” R wheels, R seats, and the 100-liter fuel tank. Furthermore, the car is very well documented with a certificate of authenticity, a copy of the Kardex, a copy of the telegram to Kelly, and the original 911 L owner’s manual, and dealer directory.
In 2008, the car was sold to a private California collector with a significant selection of early 911s. The car has been expertly maintained since and used sportingly as a healthy road car. The Porsche remains beautifully presented in its tangerine finish and has a period-correct appearance befitting the special factory-prepared car. Given the rarity of the competition 911 L and its brethren, the 911 R and 911 S/T, this is an opportunity to own one of the finer examples of the early racing 911.

Rennman
08-24-2014, 06:18 PM
Small correction of the auction house description: I and my subcontractors restored the Kelly car while under my ownership here in New York, not Canepa design.

Don

brakekiller
09-19-2014, 01:42 AM
Dear all,

Do you know who owns 11810482 ?

BTW, has anyone aware of any FIA homologation sheet for these cars in group 2 ?

Cheers
Xavier

brakekiller
09-19-2014, 01:54 AM
Just wonder :

a) Is the 1969 FIA group 2 (sedan) homologation only valid in the USA for the 1968 normale and the L models ? (Rules changed in 1970, I beleive the 911 Normale and L could not be in homologated in Group 1 and 2 anymore after 1969- the T and the S remained Group 3 and 4 - Not to mention the Normale and L homologated within the 1969 rules in group 1 and 2 could compete until 1971, I think)


b) Does any one get the homologation sheets for group2 1969 911 Normale and L?


Edit : According to the "Information Regarding Porsche Vehicules Used for Sports Purposes 1968", the 911 normale and the L are FIA Touring Car Group 2. However within the Homologated form downloaded from the FIA website, I cannot find the 911 L being homolagted group2 even with USA tag. The only 911 homologated in group 2 is written as :

Homologation form:1451 / group:2 / model:Porsche 911 / displ :1991 / homologation date :01.01.1966

The only L homologated is a Targa and not in group 2 !
Homologation form:579 / group 3 / model:Porsche 911 L Targa / displ :1991 / homologation date 01.01.1968.

Please help me sorting this out !

All the best.
Xavier

Noone can help me in the above topic ? :(

HughH
09-19-2014, 04:12 AM
Xavier

I have this in my database (it is a part of a larger piece on 911 homologation)
it came from this board a while ago and MAY have been originally written by Chris Seven but i dont have the reference recorded.
" Between 1966 and 1969, Group 5 cars were specially modified Touring Cars (Touring in this context means a Saloon car). Only cars homologated into Group 2 could run in Group 5 during this period.

If you modify a Group 3 Grand Touring cars within certain permitted criteria than it becomes a Group 4 car, which is the category that would have been used for the T/R.

The 911 was also and unusually homologated as a Touring Car into Group 2 using Homologation Form 1451 on 01-01-1966. The 911S and 911L were included as extensions to this basic form. This is why Porsche refer to Group 5 in the context of the 911S and 911L.

It is this homologation that allowed Vic Elford to contest the British Saloon car Championship in a factory 911 much to the disgust of regular saloon competitors using cars such as the Lotus Cortina.

Group 5 was changed significantly in 1970 and was used to redefine many Group 4 cars. It became a Sports Car Homologation with a maximum engine capacity of 5.0 litres and a minimum build of 25 cars - The most famous Group 5 car being the 917."


that seems to tie in with what you have in the edit part but I dont have anything other than this. I do not believe that it was a "USA thing". I think it was global as it was a FIA thing. I am certain that cars were raced out here in Australia using the same rules

brakekiller
09-19-2014, 04:37 AM
Xavier

I have this in my database (it is a part of a larger piece on 911 homologation)
it came from this board a while ago and MAY have been originally written by Chris Seven but i dont have the reference recorded.
" Between 1966 and 1969, Group 5 cars were specially modified Touring Cars (Touring in this context means a Saloon car). Only cars homologated into Group 2 could run in Group 5 during this period.

If you modify a Group 3 Grand Touring cars within certain permitted criteria than it becomes a Group 4 car, which is the category that would have been used for the T/R.

The 911 was also and unusually homologated as a Touring Car into Group 2 using Homologation Form 1451 on 01-01-1966. The 911S and 911L were included as extensions to this basic form. This is why Porsche refer to Group 5 in the context of the 911S and 911L.

It is this homologation that allowed Vic Elford to contest the British Saloon car Championship in a factory 911 much to the disgust of regular saloon competitors using cars such as the Lotus Cortina.

Group 5 was changed significantly in 1970 and was used to redefine many Group 4 cars. It became a Sports Car Homologation with a maximum engine capacity of 5.0 litres and a minimum build of 25 cars - The most famous Group 5 car being the 917."


that seems to tie in with what you have in the edit part but I dont have anything other than this. I do not believe that it was a "USA thing". I think it was global as it was a FIA thing. I am certain that cars were raced out here in Australia using the same rules

Hugh, you are a star ! I need to seek Fia Form 1451 from 1966 now.
right after your kind reply, I searched for 1451 and found an old Sreg thread. http://www.early911sregistry.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-56864.html which is the one you seem to refer to.

Thank you this is another step in my quest of these wonderful racing cars.
Xavier

Thomas lundeval
09-24-2014, 03:13 AM
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/BB%201991/2014-09-24-1133-45_zps47c9845f.jpg

Porsche 911L VIN 11810705 Jan Persson/Gunnar Dahlström SMK Uppsala Sweden at rally 1968.

Thomas lundeval
10-09-2014, 10:33 AM
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/BB%201991/2014-09-24-1135-21_zps0ec60acb.jpg[/URL]

Jan Persson/Gunnar Dahlström 911 L Rally Roslagsvalsen 1969 Sweden.

Thomas lundeval
11-22-2014, 08:23 AM
The first owner Jan Persson of the Porshe 911L Vin 11810705 901/30 is out and try his new rally car autumn 1968. Has received the photo from his private albums.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/tomlargo/BB%201991/2014-09-24-1138-34_zps2cad3689.jpg (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/tomlargo/media/BB%201991/2014-09-24-1138-34_zps2cad3689.jpg.html)