Stolen Car: 9112300871 Engine 632 1334 - 1972 Porsche 911 2.4S in Switzerland

Dear All,

From 2007 to 2013/14 I was a frequent visitor here and was/am deeply grateful for all your help and cameraderie in restoring my 1972 2.4S "Matilda". I haven't been active on the S Registry in a long time, as my family situation has taken my focus away from early 911s.

Some of you will have read Karim's thread on the engine stolen from his car: http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...n-Switzerland&

Unfortunately, my beloved car was also in this shop and is now missing in its entirety as I discovered four weeks ago when I went over to pick it up.

Here is my info:

Porsche 911 2.4S
1972
Chassis no. 9112300871
Matching engine no. 632 1334
Swiss-delivered, fully restored

Car lost/stolen/sold to unknown.

Any whereabouts of the car / information would be helpful, any people who today or in future are in possession of this car might contact its rightful owner, me.

Regards, Guru

Very Sorry to hear this Guru as it's a beautiful car that you've undoubtably invested a lot of time and effort in. I hope you all find these cars and parts before they're compromised.

I still feel the possibility that these cars can still be stolen! It's like you steal the monalisa ... Where do you hide it? For how long? I join your feelings of loss! I will be attentive to the Spanish market in case something of the year 72 comes up.Saluds and try to make it a happy year!
¡Todavía siento la posibilidad de que estos autos aún puedan ser robados! Es como si te robaras la monalisa ... ¿Dónde la escondes? ¿Por cuanto tiempo? Me uno a tus sentimientos de perdida! Estaré atento al mercado español en caso de que surja algo del año 72.Saluds y trata de que sea un año feliz!

Sorry to hear this. I’m betting that you’ll get it back.

Assuming the person who “bought” it is probably also very sick/pissed and trying to figure out what to do. Sooner or later he’ll need to give it up or face being charged with a crime.

Best of luck. Looks like a beautiful car.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by _gonbau

I still feel the possibility that these cars can still be stolen! It's like you steal the monalisa ... Where do you hide it? For how long? I join your feelings of loss! I will be attentive to the Spanish market in case something of the year 72 comes up.Saluds and try to make it a happy year!
¡Todavía siento la posibilidad de que estos autos aún puedan ser robados! Es como si te robaras la monalisa ... ¿Dónde la escondes? ¿Por cuanto tiempo? Me uno a tus sentimientos de perdida! Estaré atento al mercado español en caso de que surja algo del año 72.Saluds y trata de que sea un año feliz!

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The problem is many countries will not get involved, even if you prove it was stolen. Such was the case here with a Speedster that was stolen and popped up in Japan.
http://forum.porsche356registry.org/...eedster+stolen

I hope this owner of the 911 gets his car back.

---Adam

Guru,

Devastating news.....

With all the info here and the net, hoping for it's quick return...Good luck

cm

Guru,

Sorry to hear this news and by inference that the whole shocking thing is not resolved given the scale and how much scrutiny there is on old 911 cars and bits bought and sold for our hobby in this age of the www. Like Frank I am optimistic that the property will emerge at some point given the small world -- more likely in this situation than maybe if one car or engine was spirited away hopefully. Is the person who had possession still not talking?

Sound like you've got your hands full with family situation so don't need this further aggravation.

I've already alerted people in the "trade" in my network about Karim's plight.

Best
Steve

Now posted on the International/European forum of the RGruppe message board as well....

Holy crap!!! Unbelievable. Sick. Sad.

Hi Guru, in the past months a car matching your model and colour scheme has been offered for sale at Autoglaser Kütschlihof, CHF 180k. Possibly the same car?
Liebe Grüsse
Urelfer

Any update / news?

Crossreference http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...92#post1013492

For the records, a car what seems similar of the one owned by member Guru was today advertised fs at mobile.de by its „new/current“ swiss owner.

Attachment 487509

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 911T1971

Crossreference http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...92#post1013492

For the records, a car what seems similar of the one owned by member Guru was today advertised fs at mobile.de by its „new/current“ swiss owner.

Attachment 487509

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I can't find it ... can you pls send the link?

Thx

Link gone...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 911T1971

Link gone...

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unsurprisingly ...

Should be easypeasy though to track-down the owner of the white car in the background...

Any update on the whole situation?

Yes, state prosecutors questioned the - presumed innocent - actor of this criminal scheme, Tobias Nussbaum of defunct Flat Six GMBH in Büsserach and criminal charges will be mounted against him, if wrongdoing will be proven.
It will take a while but I am currently not obliged to share any legal details.

It btw also looks Guru’s car has been located via another current “owner” of it, one of dozen similar cases, state prosecutors also contacted me in this case.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 911T1971

Yes, state prosecutors questioned the - presumed innocent - actor of this criminal scheme, Tobias Nussbaum of defunct Flat Six GMBH in Büsserach and criminal charges will be mounted against him, if wrongdoing will be proven.
It will take a while but I am currently not obliged to share any legal details.

It btw also looks Guru’s car has been located via another current “owner” of it, one of dozen similar cases, state prosecutors also contacted me in this case, as a witness.

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Well, it looks good, doesn't it?

Swiss Newspaper start to write on the case, more article will come out, I was told.
https://www.bazonline.ch/sonntagszei...story/26728659

Attachment 493767

Attachment 493768

Hi Karim

I hadn't seen much in the press.

Curious to know in the increasingly connected world what proportion of the disputed property has been located? ?

Fingers crossed for you and others.

Steve

The Story gets another turn, in Aachen/Germany a renowned owner of a shop for historic Porsche is arrested and allegedly accused of being part of a criminal ring, dealing with fake/modified cars, mostly prototypes. The damage/loss sum is reported at over 100 Million Euro. The arrested (presumed innocent) owner Uwe N. had business relations with defunct Flat Six Cars GMBH (presumed innocent).

Press:
https://www.aachener-nachrichten.de/...t_aid-44323343
https://www.google.ch/amp/s/m.bild.d...ildMobile.html

Attachment 497175

The local newspaper from Aachen is today more precise:


-

....“Die vormaligen Schrottautos, die nun beispielsweise auf Porsche-Oldtimer getrimmt wurden, werden dann als vermeintliche Originale an betuchte Interessenten verkauft. In diesem Zusammenhang hat es jetzt eine Großrazzia mehrerer Ermittlungsbehörden gegeben. Mittelpunkt: Aachen. Dabei wurde ebenfalls in Aachen ein 48-jähriger Geschäftsmann verhaftet, den die Behörden verdächtigen, Drahtzieher solcher Geschäfte gewesen zu sein.

Vergangenen Mittwoch wurden zeitgleich in Aachen und Umgebung, aber auch in Rheinland-Pfalz und Baden-Württemberg 18 Wohnungen und Firmen durchsucht. Das bestätigen Polizei und Staatsanwaltschaft. Es werde wegen des Verdachts des „banden- und gewerbsmäßigen Betruges“ ermittelt. „Der Gruppierung wird vorgeworfen, sich zusammengeschlossen zu haben, um schrottreife Oldtimer- und Rennfahrzeuge wiederaufzubauen bzw. Replikate solcher Fahrzeuge herzustellen, sie mit deutschen Zulassungspapieren zu versehen und sie sodann als angebliche Originalfahrzeuge gewinnbringend zu veräußern“, heißt es. Bei der Razzia sei „umfangreiches Beweismaterial sichergestellt“ worden. Mehr sagen die Ermittler derzeit nicht.

Nach Informationen unserer Zeitung waren unter diesen Beweismitteln eben auch derlei mutmaßlich gefälschte Oldtimer. Nicht bestätigen wollen die Behörden, dass es alleine im aktuellen, unter anderem in Aachen spielenden Fall um eine Schadenssumme von rund 100 Millionen Euro gehen soll. Unter Insider hält man diese Summe jedoch womöglich nur für die Spitze eines Eisbergs. Es sei gut möglich, dass noch viel mehr Geld im Spiel sei. Nach Informationen unserer Zeitung sollen auch Personen in die mutmaßlich kriminellen Geschäfte verwickelt sein, die nicht direkt mit der „Fahrzeugherstellung“, sondern einerseits mit der Geld- und Materialbeschaffung für die Fälschung eines Oldtimers und andererseits mit der Vermittlung an potenzielle Käufer zu tun haben.

Weiteren Informationen unserer Zeitung zufolge wird in diesem „Geschäftsfeld“ nicht nur viel Geld mit dem Verkauf gefälschter Automobilraritäten verdient, sondern auch mit der Herstellung der gefälschten Papiere. Diese sollen demnach unter anderem dergestalt auf alt „getunt“ werden, dass man sie zeitgemäß auf Schreibmaschinen aus der entsprechenden Epoche beschriftet. Auf Basis dieser Papiere können dann die falschen Oldtimer entstehen. Was beim besagten Ferrari 250 GTO nicht geht, weil alle 39 Originale noch erhalten sind, funktioniert bei anderen Fahrzeugen sehr wohl. So sollen Lücken in den damals vergebenen Reihen der Fahrgestellnummern, die nicht immer durchlaufend waren, genutzt werden. Somit soll es Fälschungen geben, deren Fahrgestellnummern vermeintlich einem Original gehören, welches jedoch mit diesen Nummern nie gebaut wurde. Heutzutage sollen zudem gleich mehrere für Millionen verkaufte, vermeintlich echte Raritäten mit ein und derselben Fahrgestellnummer unterwegs sein.

Verdacht keimte schon früher

Im Aachener Fall geht es insbesondere um Porsche-Fahrzeuge, teils mit Straßenzulassung, teils als reine Rennwagen gebaut. Durchsucht wurden in dem Zusammenhang dem Vernehmen nach Gebäude in Aachen, in der Städteregion, in Düsseldorf und Leverkusen.

Die Verdächtigen sollen Fahrzeuge auch in die USA und nach Japan verkauft haben. Dabei war offenbar so viel Geld unterwegs, dass das Gericht nach Informationen unserer Zeitung für den in U-Haft sitzenden 48-jährigen Aachener wegen Fluchtgefahr sogar eine Freilassung auf Kaution in Millionenhöhe abgelehnt hat.

Dem Vernehmen gab es den Verdacht gegen die jetzt im Fokus stehende Gruppe bereits seit zwei Jahren. Damals sollen bei einer Porsche-Auktion Fahrzeuge aufgetaucht sein, deren Papiere und Fahrgestellnummern sich als gefälscht herausstellten. Insider sagen indes, dass die Betrugsmasche weltweit schon sehr lange laufe. Bei dem, was man damit verdienen kann, würde das kaum verwundern. Und mancher, der sich für Millionen seinen automobilen Lebenstraum in die Garage gestellt hat, besitzt in Wirklichkeit nur – wenn auch aufwendig – aufgemöbelten Schrott.“






ENGLISH (Google)



The former scrap cars, which were now trimmed, for example, on Porsche vintage cars, are then sold as alleged originals to well-heeled buyers. In this context, there has now been a large-scale raid by several investigative authorities. Center: Aachen. At the same time, a 48-year-old businessman was arrested in Aachen, suspected of being the mastermind behind such transactions.

Last Wednesday, 18 apartments and companies were searched simultaneously in Aachen and the surrounding area, but also in Rhineland-Palatinate and Baden-Württemberg. The police and prosecutor confirm that. It was determined on suspicion of "gang and commercial fraud". "The group is accused of having joined together to rebuild old cars and race cars and produce replicas of such vehicles, to provide them with German registration papers and then sell them as a purported original vehicles profitably," it says. During the raid "extensive evidence was ensured". More say the investigators currently.

According to information from our newspaper were under this evidence just such allegedly fake vintage cars. The authorities do not want to confirm that alone in the current case, which will be played in Aachen, among other things, a loss amounting to around 100 million euros is expected. However, insiders believe that this sum is only for the tip of an iceberg. It is quite possible that much more money is involved. According to our newspaper, people in the allegedly criminal business are involved, who do not directly with the "vehicle manufacturing", but on the one hand with the procurement of money and materials for the fake of a classic car and on the other hand with the mediation to potential buyers have to do.

According to our newspaper, this "business" not only earns a lot of money selling fake automobile rarities, but also the production of counterfeit paper. These should, among other things, be "tuned" to such an old form that they are labeled in a contemporary manner on typewriters from the corresponding epoch. On the basis of these papers can then arise the wrong vintage cars. What the said Ferrari 250 GTO is not, because all 39 originals are still preserved, works well in other vehicles. So should gaps in the then assigned series of chassis numbers, which were not always continuous, are used.

Thus, there are forgeries whose chassis numbers supposedly belong to an original, which, however, was never built with these numbers. Nowadays, several sold for millions, supposedly real rarities with one and the same chassis number to be on the go.

Suspicion germinated earlier

In the Aachen case, it is especially about Porsche vehicles, partly with street legal, partly built as pure racing cars. According to reports, buildings in Aachen, in the city region, in Düsseldorf and Leverkusen were searched.

The suspects are said to have sold vehicles in the US and Japan. It was apparently so much money on the way, that the court has even refused a release on bail in the millions for information of our newspaper for the 48-year-old Aachener sitting in custody due to flight danger.

There was suspicion against the group now in focus for two years already. At that time, vehicles were to appear at a Porsche auction, whose papers and chassis numbers turned out to be fake. Insiders say, however, that the scam mesh has been running for a very long time worldwide. That would hardly be surprising in what one can earn with it. And some people who have put their automobiles life dream in the garage for millions, has in reality only - albeit consuming - aufgemöbelten scrap.

wow, I bet a lot of people that recently spent a fortune on classic special Porsches will sit worried...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by patrick911

wow, I bet a lot of people that recently spent a fortune on classic special Porsches will sit worried...

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and i bet that not only those who bought a classic special Porsche sit worried

Another case surfaced in Germany, on a RSR.

https://www.soester-anzeiger.de/loka...-12817182.html


Attachment 497832



It's about a lot of horsepower - where "PS" can also stand for "Porsche dispute". For such a car, an old, very rare and above all expensive copy, it goes to court. And four more cars to pay in exchange.

Werl / Arnsberg - In the dispute over a Porsche 911 RS 3.0 (built in 1974), a Swiss car collector has sued a Werler company; the 2nd Civil Division of the District Court now negotiated in the case. It's about a high six-digit amount in euros and a car that was the dream car to the "nightmare car". A judgment is still pending. On July 26, there will be a release date at 10 clock. And it stands out: Both sides could apparently be what one calls "gelackmeiert" in the dubious game for a total of five sports cars.


First, it was now in court to bring light into the events around the five cars with a total value far beyond the million-mark. The aim of the plaintiff is to reverse the purchase agreement for that Porsche. "The plaintiff collects as a hobby classic sports cars, with which he regularly participates in German sports car events," said the district court Arnsberg. The complained Werler company acts accordingly with classic sports cars.

Swiss "sports car crazy"

As a "crazy sports car" referred to the Hamburg lawyer Dr. Mathias Creon his Swiss client. The man calls his own a collection of sporty classic cars. Then that Porsche from Germany caught his attention, which was apparently to acquire - a rare collector's item of German automotive history, estimated at around one million Swiss francs. This is where the Werler company comes into play, over which the car should have been offered by a third party.

Werler's managing director is said to have worked for himself in Switzerland at a company that was considered by industry circles to be renowned for the distribution of Porsche. Later, the Werler self-employed with a company in the Wallfahrstadt - also here with a focus of the sports car brand. Among other things, there is a sales location in Switzerland.

Connoisseurs of the industry intervened

The intricacies took their opaque course: A former colleague of the Werler intervened, a connoisseur of the industry; He is said to have made the Swiss customer aware of this legendary sports car and also threaded the sales deal in Switzerland, says lawyer Creon. The Porsche 911 RS 3.0 had been temporarily brought from Germany to Switzerland for appraisal to his client. It was bargained for the price until the agreement: 710,000 Swiss francs (about 670,000 euros).

The buyer does not have to pay in cash, but can also pay with cars of his own collection, the middleman offered. This has accepted his client, says the specialist lawyer for commercial and corporate law: Two Porsche, a racing Ford Capri and a Corvette from his collection wanted to give the Swiss to acquire the sports car from Germany. However, the car of desire should be allowed in Germany and remain there in a garage in order to drive with him, for example, on the Nürburgring; that, too, was part of the agreement. By fax then the business with the Werler company was contractually regulated, says lawyer Creon, and that on August 15, 2018, on the stationery of the Werler entrepreneur, signed and stamped.

Porsche 911 disappeared

The Swiss purchaser then complied with his contractual obligation and at short notice handed over the four classic cars of his collection to three recipients named in Switzerland. But the Porsche, which is all about, should be brought back to Germany after a few days, partly because of a small repair - and because he should be allowed here anyway.


The "911" was abarbeitegemäßlich picked up by the buyer - and since then disappeared, says the Hamburg lawyer. His client had only become suspicious after some time, had nachgehakt and finally filed a criminal complaint. The attempts to retrieve the four cars delivered had failed; the acquirers had stated that they had paid the middleman.

Swiss remains sitting on the damage

Now the Swiss sits on his damage. It was said in court, says Creon, that the expensive car of the Werler company never heard. Since the Swiss but has concluded the contract with the Werler company and the plaintiff sees them in the obligation to fulfill the contract, the Werler sued for damages - even if ultimately the middleman could be the one who had evil in mind, without the Werler something of it suspected.

It is quite possible that the Werler dealer trusted a fake, says lawyer Creon; Nevertheless, the dealer must adhere. In court, the lawyer filed an auxiliary request, which exchanged the publication of the four

As I read this update at the same time I watching a TV program about Facebook and the over 100 million fake/scammer accounts it has set up on it. Good to see these bastards got caught!

today in the german newspaper BILD: https://www.bild.de/geld/wirtschaft/...1652.bild.html - translation by Google

This story plays in the finest circles.
Dominique Guenat (67) has a passion. The co-founder of Swiss luxury manufacturer Richard Mille (whose watches cost up to one million euros) loves vintage racing cars. Winning vehicles such as the Porsche 935. At the end of the 70s, Porsche took the World Cup. Four years in a row.
Gathering these unique winners is a hobby super-rich. A secretive billion market. So an original winning Porsche 935 costs up to three million euros, replicated with today's technology copy (replica) only a fraction of it. In a few industries, so much is faked as here.
The prosecutor Aachen is currently investigating a gang of suspected fraudsters. Their head Uwe N. (48) has been in custody for three weeks.
„We accuse the group around Aachen of having rebuilt scrap racing cars or made replicas in order to sell them as ableget originals," says investigating prosecutor Jan Balthasar (41). Even former Porsche factory drivers should be involved.
Uwe N. is a skilled draftsman. After studying architecture, he builds cars instead of houses, opens his own vintage car house with 22 employees. His clients include cosmetic surgeons and international entrepreneurs such as Guenat.
A historic race car of the bankers Rothschild family has seized the prosecutor in mid-July with him. In addition a good dozen Porsches of the 50s to 80s, from the James Dean Porsche 550 Spyder to the Porsche 917. For the one collector last paid 12.5 million euros, while a copy is worth a million.
Prosecutor Balthasar: "The extensive evidence is now being evaluated." The investigators check whether they are originals, the material is really old, the chassis numbers real.
Also at Porsche in Stuttgart were the investigators. The archive provides information about what happened to the original cars, whether they are being scrapped.
A spokesman: "Porsche AG supports the investigating authorities in their research." Within the framework of the legal options, we basically "oppose external replicas, replicas or plagiarisms of historic vehicles of the brand".
Uwe N.'s lawyer Michael Rietz: "I am interested in the full investigation of the allegations. Every customer knew exactly what he was buying. He ordered it himself. My client is only supposed to play the scapegoat here. "

a shame that after 20 odd years of development, web translator tools are still so very poor.

It would be helpful to see a better translation of the James Dean 550 Spyder reference. I thought that car is still unfound.

"Ein historisches Rennfahrzeug der Bankiers-Familie Rothschild hat die Staatsanwaltschaft Mitte Juli bei ihm beschlagnahmt. Dazu ein gutes Dutzend Porsches der 50er- bis 80er-Jahren, vom James-Dean-Porsche 550 Spyder bis zum Porsche 917. Für den zahlte ein Sammler zuletzt 12,5 Millionen Euro, während eine Kopie keine Million wert ist.
Staatsanwalt Balthasar: „Das umfangreiche Beweismaterial wird jetzt ausgewertet.“ Die Fahnder prüfen, ob es sich um Originale handelt, das Material wirklich alt ist, die Fahrgestellnummern echt."

The way I read it, with my rusty German is:
"a historical racecar from the Rothschild banking family has already been confiscated last July by the prosecutor. Also a further dozen Porsches from the 50s to 80s, from James dean's 550 spyder to a Porsche 917. For those the collector has paid 12,5 million euro's, whereas a copy/replica would only be worth a million.
Procesutor Balthasar: "we're investigating the large amount of evidence". The investigators will then prove if these are originals, if the material is really old and if the chassisnumbers are correct."

This seems to say that a copy, claiming to be the real James dean 550 spyder has surfaced. It is however written in such a way it could also mean any 550 Spyder, like made famous by James Dean.
This is where a native German speaker needs to chime in... :)

This is how my German reads it too:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by patrick911

. It is however written in such a way it could also mean any 550 Spyder, like made famous by James Dean.
This is where a native German speaker needs to chime in... :)

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You are right, the "Bild" newspaper is not known to be very correct in details and research. It has nothing to do with the real James Dean Spyder, its a synonym for the 550 Spyder or even "old open Porsche from the 50ies".

These are high class clients accusing Uwe N./Scuderia66, which also dealt and supplied cars with Tobias Nussbaum.
Mille is main sponsor of Le Mans Classic and other Classic Cars event around the world, while the very discreet Rothschild collection based in Geneva is focusing on historic Porsche cars.

Attachment 498417

Quote:

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Originally Posted by beh911

It would be helpful to see a better translation of the James Dean 550 Spyder reference. I thought that car is still unfound.

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The Bild article does not say its the 550 owned by James Dean. The way its written it just say the James Dean type 550, so any 550 it can be. The picture just sells better the story. What is the main accusation in this criminal case is that they used gaps in VIN production numbers and/or scrapped factory VIN cars to claim its a real original replica, built around a historical existing VIN (which never was existing as a car, just a gap in factory production of cars). We ll see the outcome..

Meanwhile, the Aachen story goes to trial, 3 men accused of building fake Porsche cars..Niemann of Scuderia 66 and a former Porsche employee..no other that Jürgen Barth. crazy.

https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-...timer-100.html

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/panorama...1208-99-615734

Millionen-Betrug mit Porsche-Oldtimern: Anklage erhoben
Direkt aus dem dpa-Newskanal
Aachen (dpa/lnw) - Nach zweijährigen Ermittlungen hat die Staatsanwaltschaft Aachen Anklage gegen drei Männer wegen Millionenbetrugs mit teuren Oldtimern vor allem des Sportwagen-Herstellers Porsche erhoben. Hauptangeklagter sei ein 49 Jahre alter Sportwagen-Restaurator aus Aachen, bestätigte ein Sprecher des Aachener Landgerichts am Dienstag. Die weiteren Angeklagten sind ein 49-jähriger Düsseldorfer und ein 72 Jahre alter Mann aus Sachsenheim in Baden-Württemberg. Zuvor hatten mehrere Medien berichtet.
Der Aachener soll Sportwagen aus Chassis und Teilen aufgebaut, mit gefälschten Papieren und Gutachten als teure Oldtimer ausgegeben und teils für Millionensummen verkauft haben. Laut Anklage wurden neun Sport- und Rennwagen mit falschen Legenden als Original-Oldtimer an meist gutgläubige Kunden verkauft, sagte der Gerichtssprecher.

Hinzu kämen weitere Fälle, bei denen es nicht zum Abschluss kam. Die Wagen hätten als tatsächliche Originale einen erheblichen Wert - ein angeblicher Porsche 908-Rennwagen wurde beispielsweise auf 3,4 Millionen Euro taxiert. Der 72-jährige aus Baden-Württemberg sei ein ehemaliger Porsche-Mitarbeiter, der Insiderkenntnisse wie alte Fahrgestellnummern beigesteuert habe.

Laut den bisherigen Ermittlungen soll ein Mitarbeiter des Straßenverkehrsamtes Düren die Wagen zugelassen und den Betrug damit begünstigt haben. Gegen ihn laufe ein getrenntes Verfahren. Der Betrug war ans Licht gekommen, weil Unregelmäßigkeiten im Dürener Straßenverkehrsamt aufgefallen waren. Bei genauerer Untersuchung habe sich herausgestellt, dass die Verdächtigen immer mit einem bestimmten Mitarbeiter verbunden gewesen seien, sagte der Sprecher.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 911T1971

Meanwhile, the Aachen story goes to trial, 3 men accused of building fake Porsche cars..Niemann of Scuderia 66 and a former Porsche employee..no other that Jürgen Barth. crazy.

https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-...timer-100.html

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/panorama...1208-99-615734

Millionen-Betrug mit Porsche-Oldtimern: Anklage erhoben
Direkt aus dem dpa-Newskanal
Aachen (dpa/lnw) - Nach zweijährigen Ermittlungen hat die Staatsanwaltschaft Aachen Anklage gegen drei Männer wegen Millionenbetrugs mit teuren Oldtimern vor allem des Sportwagen-Herstellers Porsche erhoben. Hauptangeklagter sei ein 49 Jahre alter Sportwagen-Restaurator aus Aachen, bestätigte ein Sprecher des Aachener Landgerichts am Dienstag. Die weiteren Angeklagten sind ein 49-jähriger Düsseldorfer und ein 72 Jahre alter Mann aus Sachsenheim in Baden-Württemberg. Zuvor hatten mehrere Medien berichtet.
Der Aachener soll Sportwagen aus Chassis und Teilen aufgebaut, mit gefälschten Papieren und Gutachten als teure Oldtimer ausgegeben und teils für Millionensummen verkauft haben. Laut Anklage wurden neun Sport- und Rennwagen mit falschen Legenden als Original-Oldtimer an meist gutgläubige Kunden verkauft, sagte der Gerichtssprecher.

Hinzu kämen weitere Fälle, bei denen es nicht zum Abschluss kam. Die Wagen hätten als tatsächliche Originale einen erheblichen Wert - ein angeblicher Porsche 908-Rennwagen wurde beispielsweise auf 3,4 Millionen Euro taxiert. Der 72-jährige aus Baden-Württemberg sei ein ehemaliger Porsche-Mitarbeiter, der Insiderkenntnisse wie alte Fahrgestellnummern beigesteuert habe.

Laut den bisherigen Ermittlungen soll ein Mitarbeiter des Straßenverkehrsamtes Düren die Wagen zugelassen und den Betrug damit begünstigt haben. Gegen ihn laufe ein getrenntes Verfahren. Der Betrug war ans Licht gekommen, weil Unregelmäßigkeiten im Dürener Straßenverkehrsamt aufgefallen waren. Bei genauerer Untersuchung habe sich herausgestellt, dass die Verdächtigen immer mit einem bestimmten Mitarbeiter verbunden gewesen seien, sagte der Sprecher.

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It this becomes to be true and they are found guilty, it will be a big blow for classic Porsche world ... :/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Biancaneve

It this becomes to be true and they are found guilty, it will be a big blow for classic Porsche world ... :/

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Not at all a big blow for the Classic Porsche world! We- the true Porsche purists - admire the cars and not the wallet! We can do without those people that think they are some kind of king because of a car, a filled wallet, a network!
Let us stay focussed on the beauty of the car itself and stay away from criminal (financial gain by fraud) activities. However, we should not jump to conclusions before a "proven guilty" by court.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fourteenten

we should not jump to conclusions before a "proven guilty" by court.

---

Correct, let's wait for the conclusion of the trial ...

.... Good luck and Salds

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by _gonbau

I am waiting but the impression I had of this man when I spoke with him by mail was not very good. Without any kind of antecedent, in the conversation I had with him in which I told him if I had data about my car, he "spat on me" some data that he had already given me to Porsche and without having said anything about it being a work relationship he asked me for 250e. I still owe them, and I owe them because it made me feel stupid for thinking that someone of his level would lend himself to speak simply without charging a cent. But what I will never forget is that phrase he told me. If you have a pORSCHE, you have to have € 100.
As secluded. I stare at the case, if guilt is confirmed it will give me much to think about a man who has had everything and was asking around € 100/250 for information that the porsche gave for free while, he would charge "40k" for getting involved in other cars .... For me, Jurgen, it will be an unforgettable name, guilty or not. In any case. Good luck and Salds

---

Sounds like him.......

link to article https://www2.aachener-zeitung.de/zva....20porsche.pdf

and article as pdf
Attachment 539307

according to article, 186 cases registred, 35 suspicous and 14 proven for trial, again Barth and Niermann indirectly named.
The Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG also opened a complain within that case.

The Lucrative Business With The Racing Legends
Aachen could have been the hub in fraud involving millions of counterfeit Porsche classic cars. Prosecutor brings charges.
Oliver Schmetz and Stephan Mohne, AZ, 08DEC20, Page Three

AACHEN
Around this world they have become legends made of sheet metal, for example because they victoriously crossed the finish line at the 24 Hours of Le Mans. The fact that film icon James Dean raced to his death with a copy contributed to the formation of legend on the streets. In one case there is talk of the Porsche 917, the multiple Le Mans winner, which is sometimes referred to as the “racing car of the century”. In the other case of a Porsche 550 Spyder that was only built around 100 times. It cost 24,000 Deutschmarks in the 1950s, which sounds rather ridiculous today, but was certainly a lot of money back then. If you want to buy an original today, you have to put around five to seven million euros on the table. With the 917 one speaks of completely different sums in the double-digit million range. It goes without saying that such automotive treasures attract some people with excessive money as prestige objects or as investments. And this is exactly what an extraordinary criminal case revolves, which has its center in Aachen and which will most likely soon occupy the economic criminal chamber of the Aachen regional court. Such vehicles are said to have been counterfeited in rows in a company in Aachen and then brought to buyers with equally forged papers and reports, sometimes for millions.

Aacheners among the defendants
In July 2019, apartments and business premises were searched in several federal states. Now, after a total of more than two and a half years of extensive investigations in the sensational case, the public prosecutor's office has brought charges against three suspects, including fraud, forgery and trademark infringement. The accused are the 49-year-old former managing director of a company specializing in vintage cars in Aachen, a 48-year-old cosmetic surgeon from Düsseldorf and a 72-year-old former successful racing driver and proven Porsche racing expert from Sachsenheim.
The indictment encompasses a total of 22 cases in the most varied of forms, whereby the 49-year-old from Aachen is believed to have been involved in all of these cases and is therefore the main defendant. Even after the raid he was almost four months in custody and was only released on payment of a large bail. According to Lena Streubel, deputy spokeswoman for the regional court, the other two defendants are each charged with participating in four cases. A total of 14 automotive legends on four wheels play a role in the proceedings - in addition to the 550 and the 917, for example, racing versions of the Porsche 911 and the models 904 and 908, among others.

Replica from scrap
First, the investigators created 186 case files. Then they focused on 35 suspected cases, although sometimes the allegations either could not be substantiated or they were already statute-barred - for example in the case of another great racing driver of yore.
How did the business work? Answer: sometimes like this, sometimes like that. An example: One customer was interested in a certain rare, original Porsche. In the Aachener company it was "procured". But not as an original. Rather, a replica was practically conjured up out of scrap, but then sold to the prospect as an original. The investigators believe that since there are only a few vehicles left worldwide or they were even unique in the field of racing that they had to, among other things, also forge the chassis number and the papers. In relation to the data, e.g. chassis numbers, the 72-year-old Porsche specialist and former Le Mans winner, who has a large archive, has also contributed information.
A racing driver and lover of rare cars is said to have had a 911 built - knowing that it was a fake. This car is said to have been sold later as an expensive original. The public prosecutor's office also classifies this as fraud. In another case, a forgery is said to have been made with the knowledge of the buyer. In the sales contract it was agreed that the car would receive an original gearbox worth 200,000 euros, which was never delivered.

Counterfeiting down to the smallest detail
In yet another case there was this curiosity: Original documents from 1970 are said to have been presented when selling. However, an opinion by the public prosecutor's office revealed that the type of paper had only been on the market since the 1980s. In another case, the cosmetic surgeon is said to have used a counterfeit classic car as security for a bank loan. According to the indictment, the said Porsche 550 and the credit line was not just small change: The total credit was 6.347 million euros. Insiders have reported to our newspaper that, for example, for forging engine and gearbox numbers, special punching tools have been built that have the same little flaws - such as notches in certain numbers and letters - as the originals in the factory. Or, for example, that old typewriters, which were common when the original vehicles were built, are used to forge vehicle papers. Those familiar with the scene say that there is a flourishing trade worldwide not only in counterfeit vehicles, but also in papers. Of course, the vehicles also need official approval. This is where the Aachen case was exposed. The Düren road traffic office had become aware of irregularities in this area. On closer inspection, it became clear that the Aachen-based company in particular, appeared frequently in this context, which was the initial signal for the investigations, which then spread widely.
Employees of the traffic office authority have also been identified, but their investigation has been separated because they are said to have waved through the papers and vehicles not only for the Aacheners, but also for other "customers". Speaking of large circles: after our newspaper's first report in July 2019, numerous witnesses reported to the investigators - even from afar. For example, a man from Japan who said he had been cheated. There was also evidence from the United States and elsewhere. No wonder that the four-person team of investigators at the Aachen Criminal Police Office has repeatedly resorted to the services of interpreters in their investigations, which have been ongoing since April 2018. Despite the charges that have now been presented, the investigations are not yet over, as the investigating prosecutor Jan Balthasar says. For example, it has not yet been possible to clarify where and by whom the papers were forged.

Did the customers know?
The court must now decide whether the indictment will lead to main proceedings. According to Lena Streubel, “at the moment it cannot be predicted at all” when a lawsuit could then occur. According to reports, the accused businessman confessed that he had permitted falsifications. However, customers would have known that they were buying counterfeits. The amount of the total damage is not easy for the investigators to estimate, since the forgeries also have a value, albeit a lower one. However, this case is likely to be in the double-digit million range. Incidentally, the manufacturer, about whom this story revolves around valuable originals and forgeries, has filed a criminal complaint for infringement of trademark law: Porsche.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimmyT

The Lucrative Business With The Racing Legends.......

Replica from scrap
First, the investigators created 186 case files. Then they focused on 35 suspected cases, although sometimes the allegations either could not be substantiated or they were already statute-barred - for example in the case of another great racing driver of yore.
How did the business work? Answer: sometimes like this, sometimes like that. An example: One customer was interested in a certain rare, original Porsche. In the Aachener company it was "procured". But not as an original. Rather, a replica was practically conjured up out of scrap, but then sold to the prospect as an original. The investigators believe that since there are only a few vehicles left worldwide or they were even unique in the field of racing that they had to, among other things, also forge the chassis number and the papers. In relation to the data, e.g. chassis numbers, the 72-year-old Porsche specialist and former Le Mans winner, who has a large archive, has also contributed information.
A racing driver and lover of rare cars is said to have had a 911 built - knowing that it was a fake. This car is said to have been sold later as an expensive original. The public prosecutor's office also classifies this as fraud. In another case, a forgery is said to have been made with the knowledge of the buyer. In the sales contract it was agreed that the car would receive an original gearbox worth 200,000 euros, which was never delivered.
...

---

is this snippet an example? Or is it a true story? Is 911 known to be involved?

Take a look at the Facebook page of Scuderia m66, there you can see a lot of cars, 911, 904, 908, 917...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rhegra

Take a look at the Facebook page of Scuderia m66, there you can see a lot of cars, 911, 904, 908, 917...

---

That company in Aachen were Scuderia66 was part of it and owned by Uwe Niermann was called Automobilzentrum Aachen https://www.automobilzentrum-aachen.de.

Its now bancrupt and its website gone, fb page is just a record and not admin anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 911T1971

That company in Aachen were Scuderia66 was part of it and owned by Uwe Niemann was called Automobilzentrum Aachen https://www.automobilzentrum-aachen.de.

Its now bancrupt and its website gone, fb page is just a record and not admin anymore.

---

one of my favortios tricks is being able to travel in time. It is a trick that I learned a long time ago and it has served me for many things ... I hope, for those who do not know this "trick", know how to see the potential it has ... As I said, it has served me many times to find deleted images / posts, etc .... ALL, EVERYTHING, EVEN IF YOU DELETE IT .... it stays.
This page for me is one of the greatest tools I have.
http://web.archive.org/web/201901121...rum-aachen.de/

**
Attachment 539382Attachment 539383Attachment 539384

+
I have a simple question for the skilled eye. How are cloned cars different? If it has been done from a "perfectionist" point of view ... How do you differentiate a real one from junk? If the chassis numbers remain and the history of that car is in the books with that same chassis number. X-ray techniques is what will help you? Or at this level it is impossible to distinguish the real from the plagiarized?

Baudett
My view is that IF they start with a vin / identity of a car known to be destroyed in the past, and have all of the right dies and tools for the vin and other stampings to the extent that even small flaws in certain factory fonts/dies used at the time for vin and other identity stamping are reproduced and then they construct a car as it would have been made in the factory including sloppy welds etc AND THEN have paperwork created that is near enough identical to that produced by the factory at the time the car was supposed to have been made (including using old typewriters to get the fonts and look correct on the paperwork) and THEN get the car passed through the TUV with the TUV providing official papers, it would be almost impossible to tell - even using the best modern scientific techniques.

However I did read in one of the articles covering this (and also in a post above) that the old looking documents, with the correct information and typefaces etc was found to be made from a type of paper that was not available until the 1980's.

IF that is the extent to which the investigation of these allegations is going (as it seems from various reports) it would seem that IF the detail is ever released it will make a very interesting read regardless of the outcome of the trial.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HughH

Baudett
My view is that IF they start with a vin / identity of a car known to be destroyed in the past, and have all of the right dies and tools for the vin and other stampings to the extent that even small flaws in certain factory fonts/dies used at the time for vin and other identity stamping are reproduced and then they construct a car as it would have been made in the factory including sloppy welds etc AND THEN have paperwork created that is near enough identical to that produced by the factory at the time the car was supposed to have been made (including using old typewriters to get the fonts and look correct on the paperwork) and THEN get the car passed through the TUV with the TUV providing official papers, it would be almost impossible to tell - even using the best modern scientific techniques.

However I did read in one of the articles covering this (and also in a post above) that the old looking documents, with the correct information and typefaces etc was found to be made from a type of paper that was not available until the 1980's.

IF that is the extent to which the investigation of these allegations is going (as it seems from various reports) it would seem that IF the detail is ever released it will make a very interesting read regardless of the outcome of the trial.

---

I had understood what you said, but it had not been very clear to me about the paper* ... although I read it. At this level are we? We investigated the paper instead of the metal, the paints and welds? (Because these "present the original aspect ...). The reproductions are reaching an incomparable level since my short time in this world. Too much to think about xD! Sorry for the text ... but these levels scare even porsche I hope.

Found it , years ago there was a big artical about them at Speedhunters

http://www.speedhunters.com/2011/09/..._speedhunters/

M

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 911T1971

That company in Aachen were Scuderia66 was part of it and owned by Uwe Niemann was called Automobilzentrum Aachen https://www.automobilzentrum-aachen.de.

Its now bancrupt and its website gone, fb page is just a record and not admin anymore.

---

Marek
thanks for posting that article
however in light of what we now know when I am reading it and looking at those great photos I cant help thinking "are any of those real? or are they all fakes?"

This has certainly taken some of the pleasure and wonder out of looking at such amazing machines.......... but certainly nowhere near the impact that it has had on the owners caught up in this scam

I had already written several times in other contexts that I cannot understand why the vehicles are all restored again and again to a better than new condition, why sheet metal parts are completely cut out, even if only small corrosion traces are contained.
Yes, sure you could say, it should be just like new, but maybe just something new should be created.

Partly, I already feel bad if I refurbish an old component instead of using it immediately new (and to poorer quality).
I remember how the yellow ST that was restored by Porsche Classic was celebrated, even in this Forum. For me, each Singer Porsche is more authentic and also clearer in the statement. When I stand in front of the ST I wonder what the artist was trying to say?

I also own an old racing Porsche, you can still see its battle scars after restoration, that was also very important to me.... Why should I hide that the car was once an ST, then an RSR and then a Group 4 clone in 935 style. Sure there were holes for oil lines that went through the interior and then again not. There were different tanks installed, no matter. On one side there are still reinforcements for the stabilizers on the other not.... also no matter.
It carries three different manufacturers of plastic windows, also no matter, they are just so delivered with the car.
The seat is a Scheel seat, a Porsche "expert" said that is all wrong, funny that I have the bill of the car and seat when delivered new.

For a while I lost the fun of the car because of the strange people,many of them working for Porsche directly, but at some point I had to realize that it is my hobby and my car and I do not care what the supposed experts think.

I hope the alleged Porsche expert gets a bitter punishment, not only because he has not been correct also for his exorbitant arrogance.

//

Manfred

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MPST

The seat is a Scheel seat, a Porsche "expert" said that is all wrong, funny that I have the bill of the car and seat when delivered new.

For a while I lost the fun of the car because of the strange people,many of them working for Porsche directly, but at some point I had to realize that it is my hobby and my car and I do not care what the supposed experts think.

I hope the alleged Porsche expert gets a bitter punishment, not only because he has not been correct also for his exorbitant arrogance.

//

Manfred

---

Good one!

Experts... I could write a book about them. Not only Porsche ones, but every kind of "experts". In my job for example, I have had to deal with quite a lot of them.
There's something I can say: the best ones I have met are humbles peoples, with a boatload of knowledge. They NEVER pretend to have the definitive answer (even if, that's what you'd like to hear sometimes). Another common point, these guys will share, and educate you. And they can do it for hours...
Of course, in every domain, the guys will charge you, especially if they're helping you solve an issue. But they won't be secretive, and give you drop by drop.

THat being said, there are a few guys in this forum who in my eyes are true experts... Uai with the seats, Hugh with history, Weidman for the wheels, DaveP with the numbers, Breazle with parts, EdMayo, Franck Beck (bad taste joke expert), there's another one whom I remember reading electrical posts with passion (I hate electrics!) plus many, many more: bolt finish, 67's specificities, R chassis numbers and races, 901 specificities, lights (Audette), repro (Soterik, Marek)... And there's another person on the board, who wants to remain discret who is probably more knowledgeable thant Jurgen himself regarding plastic Porsches...

None of them spares his time answering questions here! That's my point! None of them is bling bling like many self proclamed experts in the P world.

I saw Jurgen Barth in a classic car race event near my house maybe 3 yrs ago (Circuit Paul Ricard, france). He was driving a car from the Museum. Impossible to get close to him.
Last summer, I've been to the same place. Ari Vatanen was there (he drives for BMW for classic events). Never saw an humble and friendly guy like him! Under covid circumstances, he crossed the border separating the guys with the big cars, busy drinking champain (literrally!) in the VIP hospitality, and the public, and he remained here for an hour or so, taking pictures with people. Always a kind word, always the smile...
This guy is a motor racing heroe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS73N7vHRHQ

Halay loo ya,a man after my own heart,i wish also people would leave racers well alone instead of inflicting the road car lawn queens syndrome of matching numbers,this is wrong,thats not correct,looks bodged.
Race cars are race cars,leave them alone,yes restore to get running but dont take away the history thats taken years in the making,its sad and a crime to do this.:)Rant over.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MPST

I had already written several times in other contexts that I cannot understand why the vehicles are

all restored again and again to a better than new condition, why sheet metal parts are completely cut out, even if only small corrosion traces are contained.
Yes, sure you could say, it should be just like new, but maybe just something new should be created.

Partly, I already feel bad if I refurbish an old component instead of using it immediately new (and to poorer quality).
I remember how the yellow ST that was restored by Porsche Classic was celebrated, even in this Forum. For me, each Singer Porsche is more authentic and also clearer in the statement. When I stand in front of the ST I wonder what the artist was trying to say?

I also own an old racing Porsche, you can still see its battle scars after restoration, that was also very important to me.... Why should I hide that the car was once an ST, then an RSR and then a Group 4 clone in 935 style. Sure there were holes for oil lines that went through the interior and then again not. There were different tanks installed, no matter. On one side there are still reinforcements for the stabilizers on the other not.... also no matter.
It carries three different manufacturers of plastic windows, also no matter, they are just so delivered with the car.
The seat is a Scheel seat, a Porsche "expert" said that is all wrong, funny that I have the bill of the car and seat when delivered new.

For a while I lost the fun of the car because of the strange people,many of them working for Porsche directly, but at some point I had to realize that it is my hobby and my car and I do not care what the supposed experts think.

I hope the alleged Porsche expert gets a bitter punishment, not only because he has not been correct also for his exorbitant arrogance.

//

Manfred

---

Great post olivier,agree 100%

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Olivier

Good one!

Experts... I could write a book about them. Not only Porsche ones, but every kind of "experts". In my job for example, I have had to deal with quite a lot of them.
There's something I can say: the best ones I have met are humbles peoples, with a boatload of knowledge. They NEVER pretend to have the definitive answer (even if, that's what you'd like to hear sometimes). Another common point, these guys will share, and educate you. And they can do it for hours...
Of course, in every domain, the guys will charge you, especially if they're helping you solve an issue. But they won't be secretive, and give you drop by drop.

THat being said, there are a few guys in this forum who in my eyes are true experts... Uai with the seats, Hugh with history, Weidman for the wheels, DaveP with the numbers, Breazle with parts, EdMayo, Franck Beck (bad taste joke expert), there's another one whom I remember reading electrical posts with passion (I hate electrics!) plus many, many more: bolt finish, 67's specificities, R chassis numbers and races, 901 specificities, lights (Audette), repro (Soterik, Marek)... And there's another person on the board, who wants to remain discret who is probably more knowledgeable thant Jurgen himself regarding plastic Porsches...

None of them spares his time answering questions here! That's my point! None of them is bling bling like many self proclamed experts in the P world.

I saw Jurgen Barth in a classic car race event near my house maybe 3 yrs ago (Circuit Paul Ricard, france). He was driving a car from the Museum. Impossible to get close to him.
Last summer, I've been to the same place. Ari Vatanen was there (he drives for BMW for classic events). Never saw an humble and friendly guy like him! Under covid circumstances, he crossed the border separating the guys with the big cars, busy drinking champain (literrally!) in the VIP hospitality, and the public, and he remained here for an hour or so, taking pictures with people. Always a kind word, always the smile...
This guy is a motor racing heroe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS73N7vHRHQ

---

He is a strange person, once he doesn't know you at all and can't even manage a handshake 5 minutes later he crawls up your butt so hard he can almost see daylight again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MPST

I had already written several times in other contexts that I cannot understand why the vehicles are all restored again and again to a better than new condition, why sheet metal parts are completely cut out, even if only small corrosion traces are contained.
Yes, sure you could say, it should be just like new, but maybe just something new should be created.

Partly, I already feel bad if I refurbish an old component instead of using it immediately new (and to poorer quality).
I remember how the yellow ST that was restored by Porsche Classic was celebrated, even in this Forum. For me, each Singer Porsche is more authentic and also clearer in the statement. When I stand in front of the ST I wonder what the artist was trying to say?

I also own an old racing Porsche, you can still see its battle scars after restoration, that was also very important to me.... Why should I hide that the car was once an ST, then an RSR and then a Group 4 clone in 935 style. Sure there were holes for oil lines that went through the interior and then again not. There were different tanks installed, no matter. On one side there are still reinforcements for the stabilizers on the other not.... also no matter.
It carries three different manufacturers of plastic windows, also no matter, they are just so delivered with the car.
The seat is a Scheel seat, a Porsche "expert" said that is all wrong, funny that I have the bill of the car and seat when delivered new.

For a while I lost the fun of the car because of the strange people,many of them working for Porsche directly, but at some point I had to realize that it is my hobby and my car and I do not care what the supposed experts think.

I hope the alleged Porsche expert gets a bitter punishment, not only because he has not been correct also for his exorbitant arrogance.

//

Manfred

---

****


https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...AAAElFTkSuQmCC

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Olivier

Good one!

Experts... I could write a book about them. Not only Porsche ones, but every kind of "experts". In my job for example, I have had to deal with quite a lot of them.
There's something I can say: the best ones I have met are humbles peoples, with a boatload of knowledge. They NEVER pretend to have the definitive answer (even if, that's what you'd like to hear sometimes). Another common point, these guys will share, and educate you. And they can do it for hours...
Of course, in every domain, the guys will charge you, especially if they're helping you solve an issue. But they won't be secretive, and give you drop by drop.

THat being said, there are a few guys in this forum who in my eyes are true experts... Uai with the seats, Hugh with history, Weidman for the wheels, DaveP with the numbers, Breazle with parts, EdMayo, Franck Beck (bad taste joke expert), there's another one whom I remember reading electrical posts with passion (I hate electrics!) plus many, many more: bolt finish, 67's specificities, R chassis numbers and races, 901 specificities, lights (Audette), repro (Soterik, Marek)... And there's another person on the board, who wants to remain discret who is probably more knowledgeable thant Jurgen himself regarding plastic Porsches...

None of them spares his time answering questions here! That's my point! None of them is bling bling like many self proclamed experts in the P world.

I saw Jurgen Barth in a classic car race event near my house maybe 3 yrs ago (Circuit Paul Ricard, france). He was driving a car from the Museum. Impossible to get close to him.
Last summer, I've been to the same place. Ari Vatanen was there (he drives for BMW for classic events). Never saw an humble and friendly guy like him! Under covid circumstances, he crossed the border separating the guys with the big cars, busy drinking champain (literrally!) in the VIP hospitality, and the public, and he remained here for an hour or so, taking pictures with people. Always a kind word, always the smile...
This guy is a motor racing heroe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS73N7vHRHQ

---

I had the chance to have dinner with Ari Vatanen in my previous life as political advisor of some members of the European Parliament ... a real legend and humble at the same time ... one of my best souvenir in an otherwise shark filled environment (no offense meant to real sharks) ... as far as JB is concerned ... met several times at Spa Classic, a good friend of friends ... but I share the same feeling of MPST ... not consistent in his "social behaviour" ... but this has nothing to do with whether he's guilty or not of this smelly forgery story ... and until the end of the trial, we have to presume his innocence ...

Yes important that he must be assumed to be innocent In this terrible wrangle,Until proven otherwise,a forum is not a judge and jury.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yellow491

Yes important that he must be assumed to be innocent In this terrible wrangle,Until proven otherwise,a forum is not a judge and jury.

---

Excuse me for laughing ... you are absolutely right but ... if you know my case you realize that the truth is the opposite of what you say, at least in Spain.
+
From my point of view and the people involved, they are innocent until proven otherwise. If in any publication I have been direct with the names I hope you do not take it the wrong way ... on the other hand, I am doing some publications around the Spanish world to see if anything is known about all this ... which seems not to be.

@MPST
Could-you, please, introduce your ST into this thread?
https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...-thread/page72

Thank you in advance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 928cs

@MPST
Could-you, please, introduce your ST into this thread?
https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...-thread/page72

Thank you in advance.

---

Hi, yes I could and I would. But, my car is somehow also affected by the bullshit you can read the 7 pages before. That is also the reason why I have an opinon about the things are going on in the market of old cars.

I'll share information when we know how the lawsuit ended and when the car is completed.

//

Manfred

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MPST

Hi, yes I could and I would. But, my car is somehow also affected by the bullshit you can read the 7 pages before. That is also the reason why I have an opinon about the things are going on in the market of old cars.

I'll share information when we know how the lawsuit ended and when the car is completed.

//

Manfred

---

Sorry to hear that ... this is not really healthy for our hobby ... hope that your lawsuit will make justice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marek

Found it , years ago there was a big artical about them at Speedhunters

http://www.speedhunters.com/2011/09/..._speedhunters/

M

---

I wonder if their building is for sale?

I looked at an ST that Jurgen wrote a certification for; it clearly didn’t seem real to me, or at least enough of it. If you can’t clearly trace the provenance on these high value cars, don’t buy it.

Cross reference of the latesr news, since the Barth/Niemann story is on trail now