1974 Carrera USA Info Thread

There seems to be some interest on the board lately about these cars and my hope is that this thread can be the repository for information specific to the USA 1974 Carrera. I'll start it out with a paper I have been working on for quite some time regarding the performance of these cars. I think I've now collected and reviewed every contemporaneous publication that tested these cars. This started as a bunch of handwritten notes for my own education as I tried to reconcile all sorts of conflicting information regarding these cars.

Perhaps more interesting than the performance data itself was what I learned about the large differences in testing methods utilized by Porsche and the various magazines.

This is in PDF format and I don't think it can be posted here directly, so here's the link. It should open right up in Google Docs.

Observations on 1974 Porsche Carrera USA Performance

I think you can download directly here: Download


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Production numbers:

Attachment 201579

Brilliant article! Finally an objective and well-researched look into a great year and a great car. I've grown tired of everyone parroting negative comments about these cars with no actual seat time in a '74S/Carrera.

In the course of your research did you find any big differences between the '74S and the '74 US Carrera besides asthetics? From all the digging I've done the '74S has the exact same suspension as the Carrera (engine too, but that's a known tid-bit).

Nicely done.

Thanks Nate. I didn't look at that at all. But C&D did test a 911S Targa and it was just fractionally slower (0-60MPH = 5.9s, 1/4 mile = 14.6, top speed = 129MPH). Engine, final drive ratio and gearing is the same. The only variables would seem to be added weight of the Targa and aerodynamics?

Cool thread Curt. I'll post some pics of the two I have at the shop...

:)

Great job!

I'm going to steal some info from Mark's excellent 74 Carrera restoration thread here: 1974 Carrera Restoration - Family Owned Since 1975

RE: Tunnel Reinforcement

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Originally Posted by Flat Six, inc.

Yeah...around the shift coupler access, there's a reinforcement that goes through the firewall to the torsion tube.

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Attachment 201652

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Originally Posted by Flat Six, inc.

From the inside...

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Attachment 201653

RE: Fogs Lights

Bosch 0 305 450 022 (911 611 206 01), all chrome, standard H3 lamp. 74-only, changed to black in 1975.

Attachment 201654

RE: Rubber Chin Spoiler

There's discrepancy on this. Some sources say the chin spoiler was phased in at the end of the 74 Carrera production cycle. This doesn't make sense to me as the purpose was to balance out the larger 75 Carrera 'whale tail'.

RE: Weltmeister window stickers

It appears that the early 74 Carreras used the "1973" sticker ("Gewinnt CanAm & Interserie 1972"). At some point, a new sticker was produced signifying "Gewinnt CanAm & Interserie 1972 & 1973". Since the Interserie finished in late September 1973 and the CanAm season finished up in late October 1973, the changeover was probably around October since they clinched the title sometime earlier.

Attachment 201655Attachment 201656

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Originally Posted by CurtEgerer

RE: Rubber Chin Spoiler

There's discrepancy on this. Some sources say the chin spoiler was phased in at the end of the 74 Carrera production cycle. This doesn't make sense to me as the purpose was to balance out the larger 75 Carrera 'whale tail'.

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Yeah...I'm shrugging about this too.

Excellent write up. I've owned a 74 911S for almost 20 years and every time I drive it I'm reminded it is a kick ass car. I often think, there's no way this is a 7.5 sec 0-60 car, it just feels much faster. Good to see the c&d test agrees. Maybe I can get Ed to drag race me sometime!

Differences S to Carrera were aluminum front cross member, alloy calipers, flares, ducktail. All else was the same on US models to my knowledge. And maybe the chassis reinforcement.

Cool write-up Curt, thanks!
RE: Rubber Chin Spoiler. I have been told by an ex-dealership employee that he personally mounted the front spoilers on some '74 Carreras. Mine was supposedly delivered without one - but one was added at some point (by the ex-employee) - but it currently does not have one mounted.

#236....lime green. A nice clean California car.

My car is #89....originally Bitter Chocolate and will be again. The car is complete but a total pile.

Aaron, that's a really early car. Which brings up another area of discrepancy: bumper shocks. A few sources claim that some of the early USA cars did not have bumper shocks. Has anyone actually seen an original USA car without bumper shocks?

My US '74 911S with a 12/73 build date does not have bumper shocks. It has the deformation tubes.

My 74 production #63 built 9/73 does have them.

Intersting Curt...I'll check. The car seems to have the SC style rear flare too (pretty sure the left is original)...some say the RS style was used and I've seen a couple that way....probably a mix but you'd think the low number would make the RS flare more likely.

Shrugging again.

My #136, 11/73 build has the factory crush tubes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steve@Rennsport

My #136, 11/73 build has the factory crush tubes.

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I also remember reading something indicating that there is a difference in how much the bumpers extend outward based upon bumper shock mounting or crush tube mounting. Seems like it would be the same since the bellows is the same for both. Can anyone address this?

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Originally Posted by varunan123

here is a nice S discussed here before

raj

http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...ervation-Class

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Interesting no one noticed that car is a "T" or normal, not an "S" by the VIN plate. 9114102369.

Agreed on all point except the slow part. I don't think a '74 911 is any slower than a '73 T and I doubt a '74S is much slower than a '73S. Heresy, I know.

SCs are great but I do top-ends on them constantly because of broken head studs. I had an '81 SC in here with 14,000 miles on it....the car was PERFECT...except for the 8 broken head studs....:/

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Originally Posted by sithot

'74's are not bad cars. They are slow but not bad.

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Obviously, I've failed miserably .... :cool:

Attachment 202646

Re-reading the Feb '74 C&D test, they comment that the 74 911 and 911S are about as fast as the '73 T & S. They also say (as does R&T Jan 74) that the bumper shocks are a mandatory $138 option (but as we now know not all cars got them!). Also Bobby Allison thinks they handle uniquely/poorly and are not suited for novice drivers.

I have both these mags and would be happy to scan them if anyone is interested.

I don't know how the magazines do their road tests, but those numbers for the 74 are the same as for a Carrera RS. IMHO not really possible. I think the 75 numbers are more credible. I thought they shortened the gears a bit to get close to the 0-60 numbers but the top speed was affected as shown in the 75 numbers.

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Originally Posted by sithot

The "Road Test" Magazine reprint I have lists 8.6 to 60 for the Carrera in '75. Frére lists it as 7.3 which is realistic. He (Frére) also timed the Carrera RS at 5.5 seconds to 60. So a car ('74 Carrera) that weighed about +/-200 kg more (approximately 400+ pounds) and had 50 or so less horsepower did the sprint in 5.8 seconds. BS. I drove one of these when it was relatively new and it was no rocket. If you've ever had the thrill of driving a car that would bury the speedometer at redline and go through the paces at low 13's in the quarter you know what a real sub "6" 0-60 run feels like. The '74 Carrera was not that car.

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All the 0 to 60 mph times are so noisy and depend on launch, surface traction, motor characteristics etc. that they are basically nonsense as a comparison tool. 0 to 100mph or even better to use passing speed times such as 40 - 100 are much more telling. I think the published 0 - 60 times for my 1977 930 are around 5.5 sec also because of the basic characteristics of the motor. But I'll be happy to drag race an RS in the 1/4 mile any time. I've owned and driven lots of 2.7L MFI cars and I currently own the 74 Carrera shown on my thread on this site and they behave completely differently. The MFI cars don't get going off the line and the CIS cars don't transition well during shifts (no throttle response after lifting). I think it's really hard to say I've driven them so I know what the 0 - 60 time should have been when they tested them. Unless you want to flatly state that the tests results are totally purchased to sell cars? If that's the case, maybe the RS specs are a little off also.

Also, Maybe I've been living under a rock for the past 30 years while buying and selling all of these Porsche cars but I would love to see scale data showing a 400 lb difference between a 73 RS and a 74 Carrera. The curb weight difference between the 73 S and 74 C is 5 lbs according to the Porsche spec books. I know the RS is a light weight but I challenge anybody to show actual scale data to prove this. I base this on race car builds I've done where we remove so much metal and parts to make the car almost useless and still have a hard time getting 400 lbs out of a 911.

Mark

Tom, my paper explains the many variables in testing and why there are huge descrepancies in 0-60 and 1/4 mile times amongst testers. Clearly, one can't compare Road Test to Frere to C&D to R&T to Porsche factory - apples and oranges. The C&D numbers are the best (only?) comparative numbers available. Unless C&D made a decision in 1965 to cook the numbers to make the 74 Carrera look good 9 years later, the data in the chart is logical and progressive as displacement/HP increased. Its the comparison between the numbers that counts, not the numbers themselves.

Using 1/4 mile times and 0-60 numbers don't mean much with this type of car - that's why I stated that in the paper. But it's the only objective comparison available. Karl Ludvigsen, Road & Track and Car & Driver all independently described the 74 Carrera as having a performance increase versus the 73 911S (it only became a "slow car" 10 years ago or so, coinciding with the rise in values of early 911s, i.e. my $75,000 73S must be faster than a $20,000 74 Carrera :rolleyes: ). All 3 were critical of the 75 Carrera in describing its weight increase, long gearing, and decrease in torque and HP. 75 was the year it all started to go to hell, not 74.

It's really a simple equation: weight-gearing-power = performance.

74 Carrera vs 73 911S:

Weight increased 1% (25 pounds, worst case scenario) - 400 pounds?! Urban legend, listed right after Bigfoot.

Gearing is the same

Displacement increased a massive 15% (same % increase as going from a 327 to a 396 big block Chevy!).

Torque increased 9.5%

Horsepower decreased 8%


How could the 2 cars not have very similar performance? Answer: they do. :eek:

What is the actual weight differences between 1974 and 1975 Carreras? What contributed to the weight increase between those two years? The mirrors hadn't changed yet, the interior was the same, the body was the same (except change from ducktail to whaletail), so what caused the weight change?

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Originally Posted by rynoshark

What is the actual weight differences between 1974 and 1975 Carreras? What contributed to the weight increase between those two years? The mirrors hadn't changed yet, the interior was the same, the body was the same (except change from ducktail to whaletail), so what caused the weight change?

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Every source I found quoted a '100 pound weight increase' in 1975. It was generally attributed to the new exhaust system, the air re-circulation pump system, the larger rear bumper cushions, the larger rear spoiler, the added chin spoiler, the new electric blower for the ventilation system, new engine noise insulation, and added sound insulation. There might be more but I didn't dig into that since I was only concentrating on the 74.

Also, another way we know the weights of the 73 and 74 are nearly identical is by comparing the performance of the 73 Carrera RS and the 74 Euro Carrera. Same engine, gearbox, and final drive ratio. Only difference is F-body vs G-body. The performance of the 2 cars is the same so the weight has to be about the same.

I can't believe that no one commented on the MOST significant difference between a 1974 911S and a 1974 Carrera! HANDLING..oh, and it was also not mentioned about the wider rear tires/wheels. That is THE huge difference in upgrading the Porsche 911 cars. Yea, I too have have a ton of these various 911s and I have fought trying to get more handling out of non-flared cars. These smallish flares and difference in wheel/tires back there made an enormous difference to those of us that love the twisties.

Also, referring the C&D 0-60, etc. C&D absolutely abused their cars in the process. I once owned a "performance car" that they had recently tested and there was no way I could get it to accelerate from a stop like they did. THEN I did some research [a couple of phone calls] and discovered that if I simply revved my car to 6K and dropped the clutch, well.. it would turn quite a time. I even did it once to that poor car and it was quite impressive. So, you can only guess how they got these great times out of the "74 Carrera [as well as the other P cars]. The only reason they didn't have a stupendous time for a '73 RS was that there weren't any here for them to test [or, at least no one who snuck one in willing to let them get their hands on it!].

Neat, under rated cars.

JR

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Originally Posted by john rice

Also, referring the C&D 0-60, etc. C&D absolutely abused their cars in the process. I once owned a "performance car" that they had recently tested and there was no way I could get it to accelerate from a stop like they did. THEN I did some research [a couple of phone calls] and discovered that if I simply revved my car to 6K and dropped the clutch, well.. it would turn quite a time. I even did it once to that poor car and it was quite impressive. So, you can only guess how they got these great times out of the "74 Carrera [as well as the other P cars]. The only reason they didn't have a stupendous time for a '73 RS was that there weren't any here for them to test [or, at least no one who snuck one in willing to let them get their hands on it!].

Neat, under rated cars.

JR

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Hi John, Good to have some direct verification on the C&D testing methods. Part of the equation was their abusive driving style. The larger part was weight, or lack thereof. Every data source I found, other than C&D, artificially added 100s of pounds to the cars (fuel, passengers, dead weight and/or test equipment, etc) to simulate 'real world' performance :rolleyes: We don't need no steeenking real world numbers, we want to know how fast this thing can go! :D

Couple of things since I haven't seen them posted around here.

After some email chatter, a thread has started over at the bird for '74/75 Carreras:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...re-thread.html

And, a request of the Carrera Register for new/updated info:
Bob Westmoreland <pdnailgy@cet.com> is the PCA 74-75 Carrera Advocate

Great thread. Some parts relevant to the US Carrera that are also shared with the Euro Carreras can also be found here:

http://carreramfi.com/parts.shtml

This is a great thread. I have 74 US Carrera #354 and absolutely love it. Great to see these cars getting their due, after seemingly in the shadow of the RS. I agree the RS is wonderful etc, but is it really that much more wonderful than a 74 US Carrera? It appears, based on the data, that it is probably not. In fact, based on what I have rad here, it can put up very similar performance times for a fraction of the price.

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Originally Posted by 74USCarrera

This is a great thread. I have 74 US Carrera #354 and absolutely love it. Great to see these cars getting their due, after seemingly in the shadow of the RS. I agree the RS is wonderful etc, but is it really that much more wonderful than a 74 US Carrera? It appears, based on the data, that it is probably not. In fact, based on what I have rad here, it can put up very similar performance times for a fraction of the price.

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Nice car but a horseshoes and hand grenades argument.

Similar is not the same. If you lose a race by .00300 you have posted "similar performance" but still lose.

The engines are different to the tune of about 35 horsepower. The DIN rating (Deutsch Invented Number :rolleyes: ) for the 2.7 US Carrera is 175 hp/159lb.ft. The Carrera RS was 210 hp/188ft.lb. The torque curve was substantially better as the RS matched the US Carrera numbers at lower RPM's.

Make no mistake. There is a world of difference in an MFI engine and a CIS engine. The induction system alone is part of the equation as the cams in a CIS car cannot be as radical due to wave pulse.

When these cars were new here in the US they were obvious marketing exercises as we were going through the pains of government interdiction and manufacturers attempting to keep up by use of band aids and quick fixes. Corvettes were making 200 hp by the late 70's
and were a former shadow of themselves. The decade of "lost performance" all mandated by politicians not realizing you can't turn a large ship around in a block. The oil embargo didn't help either. Some of you are too young to remember gas rationing.
So, the industry got by with clever marketing. Think: Decals of chickens on hoods and racing stripes down the sides and "Anniversary" is word that took off and has been worn out ever since.



Tom

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Originally Posted by 74USCarrera

This is a great thread. I have 74 US Carrera #354 and absolutely love it. Great to see these cars getting their due, after seemingly in the shadow of the RS. I agree the RS is wonderful etc, but is it really that much more wonderful than a 74 US Carrera? It appears, based on the data, that it is probably not. In fact, based on what I have rad here, it can put up very similar performance times for a fraction of the price.

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Interesting thread Curt.The last '74 Carrera I had, we replaced the "stock" cam with SC cams, and this made a huge difference in how quick the motor revs up to high RPM's. Not much more HP, but from a drivers' standpoint, "light-to-light" seemed quicker.

Still a CIS cam which again is not as radical as what can be done with MFI or carburetors. YMMV. Fatter down low is where the ROW Carrera RS rocked the house. And still making more HP on top was the icing on the cake.

Tom

Found an original press photo of the 74 Carrera on fleaBay:

Attachment 219725

Attachment 219724

Hi Curt. I'm in the market for a '74 Carrera, and have been trying to learn as much about them as possible. I found more information in this thread (and fantastic "paper" attached) than I've been able to find elsewhere combined. Thank you for the time and effort that went into compiling it all!

A question - I'm considering purchasing a particular '74 that, on the COA lists "California Equipment" as one of its options. This gave my pause, as I assumed it meant more emissions equipment and likely a performance hit. That said, I haven't found any literature or sources that talk about a "California version" until '75. Any ideas?

Reid

The '74 Carrera has no emissions equipment ( no thermal reactors, no EGR, no air pump, ....). The CIS injection allowed California requirements to be met without additional equipment.

My window sticker does include "California Emissions Test - $17.00", which is also included on the CoA.

I purchased my '74 Carrera specifically because we had seen what was coming in the MY75 cars.

That's what's confusing me. I'm looking at the COA right now - first item under "Optional Equipment" is "California Equipment". If that's not emissions-related, what is it? I know that COAs are notorious for being inaccurate, but I'm not quite ready to chock it up to that yet...

A mistake. It took me three tries to obtain an accurate CoA.

Best advise is to inspect (or have it inspected) to be certain it is a MY74 car.

Thanks. I do have a ton of pics of it, including all stickers/tags/etc. confirming it is a '74, and the VIN (and engine) matche what's on the COA. It does have a chin spoiler but as I've learned those were added to many 74s back in the day (and seller has confirmed/agreed that it was added at some point in the past).

Thanks for weighing in Joe!

OK, here is my CoA:

Attachment 266002

Easy to see how "Emissions" could be mis-typed as "Equipment".

Also, check out the book "Original Porsche 911" page 61 for a photo of my engine.

[QUOTE=Reid;677677]It does have a chin spoiler but as I've learned those were added to many 74s back in the day

Yep, I did the same thing!

I am in the process of acquiring a 74 US Carrera Targa and there are a couple of things with the interior that are concerning me. First, the color of the interior is red and it is listed as "Brown Leatherette / 26" on the COA. Second, it has manual side windows and it is my understanding that the 1974 US Carrera's came with electric side windows as standard equipment. I am in the process of arranging a PPI but, I was wondering if any of you would kindly give me your opinion on the matter?

Hi,

I have the complete factory brochure here for that model year and can check colors-interiors if you wish. The VIN determines whether its the genuine article or not and I'd really need that to confirm what this is.

I've never see any '74 Carrera without electric windows since they were standard on those particular cars, and not an option. This would not rule out an "option delete" on a special order, but a COA may not show that. The old Kardex system would, however those are NLA.

Steve is correct, should have electric windows. The VIN would be 911441XXXX for a Targa.

I 've owned ( 4) U S 1974 Carrera's . Both coupe and Targa's. Never had one with electric windows.

Hi Curt,

I bought my Carrera as the original owner in 1974 and have followed them since. It is possible to have manual windows but that should be documented on the window sticker or some other form of documentation. On the four Carreras you had, what did your window sticker indicate?

Electric windows were commonplace. It was never intended to be a lightweight.

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Originally Posted by JH0524

Hi Curt,

I bought my Carrera as the original owner in 1974 and have followed them since. It is possible to have manual windows but that should be documented on the window sticker or some other form of documentation. On the four Carreras you had, what did your window sticker indicate?

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Manual windows on the window sticker , is that your question ? No sir. Manual windows was never an option, it would have been Standard . I won' t opine on your theory, but the cars I had were unmolested examples, and NO ONE was changing out manual windows for electric windows back then. The cars I owned were 3 CA cars, and one AZ car.

I own 911440XXXX with electric windowns 49K original miles unmolested totally and completly original with complete history and all books with record from delivery. How does someone if still possable get a invoice window sticker? Thank you.

Manual windows were standard for the Carrera Targa on rest-of-world cars, and power windows for coupes as standard. For the US market I thought the Targas also came with manual windows (and coupes had electric)...is that true?

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Originally Posted by rynoshark

Manual windows were standard for the Carrera Targa on rest-of-world cars, and power windows for coupes as standard. For the US market I thought the Targas also came with manual windows (and coupes had electric)...is that true?

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Yes, that is correct. Check out my window sticker, near the bottom of the N.C. Items.Attachment 281497

The May 2013 issue of Panorama has an article I wrote on a U.S. '74 Carrera imported to California.

Electric windows were standard on the U.S. spec model. Other items that came standard included antennae and speaker grill. And even though ‘74 U.S. Carreras were uniformly delivered with the ducktail, Carrera script, and a 5-speed transmission, these were all listed as options for that model. The optional fog lamps were chrome for the '74 model, becoming black in '75.

My research included long discussions with Curt Egerer. There is some good info there...

Ran into this thread. Does anyone know of any kind of registry for the 1974-1975 USA Carreras?

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Originally Posted by MY911S

Ran into this thread. Does anyone know of any kind of registry for the 1974-1975 USA Carreras?

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I *think* PCA still runs a registry for those cars although it may now include the 2.7 Euro Carrera & Carrera 3.0's.

Thanks Steve. I wanted to post a for sale ad for my 75 in the appropriate registry.

Steve - My Carrera Targa is #64…original lime green Carrera Targa that is currently silver, but soon to be brought back to its original lime green glory! I will have to check and see about the bumper shocks!?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 72MFI

I own 911440XXXX with electric windowns 49K original miles unmolested totally and completly original with complete history and all books with record from delivery. How does someone if still possable get a invoice window sticker? Thank you.

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Traveling but as soon as i get back i will too you.