Original post............
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Original post............
Nice posting Raj. The green with bold stripes is a nice added plus, great graphics, agree. Would be nice to replicate as 1/32 slot car even! Keeping the enthusiasm solid…
Cheers, Thompson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Api6Gt3jDJk
It fits here:
Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG erwirbt Mehrheitsbeteiligung an Manthey-Racing
Premium-Sportwagen-Hersteller übernimmt 51 Prozent der Anteile am Erfolgsrennstall
Means, Porsche take 51% of Manthey Racing!
Attachment 274856
In 2014 a Carrera Cup car (original) will be starting at the 24hours race at the Nürburgring with dirvers from the 90is.
Great ...
I was the one asking why the RS Cups continued to use the C2 rear bumper rather than the RS.
Also, several have stated, including Porsche, that the RS Cups were running 18" Speedlines. That may have been true for the German series but in both the French and Japanese series the cars were on 17" Cup 1's. Anyone?
These are the kind of questions that keep some of us coming back. VERY few people care, YET. Reminds me of the 80's when we were looking for answers to our 73 RS questions and there was so much really bad information out there. And no internet. :confused:
Mark
This is exactly what I am talking about, Raj. What you have posted is different from what I am finding. It has always been my understanding that magnesium wheels were never used on a 964 Cup Car. Mg. was not thought durable enough. Same thinking with the use of steel doors rather than aluminum. Interesting that aluminum was somehow OK on the RS N-GT. If I am mistaken, please tell me.
The 18" Speedlines were the big news in 1992, not 1993. And yet Porsche shows Cup 1's in their 1992 Christophorus article introducing the Speedlines! Nothing new here. On a similar note, we had been led to believe, until recently, that Euro Cups could not/had not been registered for the road.
And so it goes.....
Mark
The road cars (RS) used Mg wheels the cups ran the same Al wheels as US car 8 x 17 & 9.5 x 17 until the switch was made to the speedlines. I don't think AL doors were used until 993 RS and cups and the 4WD light weights.
Phil
So maybe I got the wheel thing wrong-
Wheels/Tires
• 1990-1991 8x17" front and 9.5x17" rear one-piece cast magnesium Cup wheels,
saving 11kgs;
• 1992 onwards 8x18" front and 9.5x18" rear three-piece "Speedline for Porsche"
wheels. The size was changed due to ready availability of Pirelli 18” slicks in the
German DTM series and the ability to replace only parts of the Speedline wheels
Phil
So I also found this reference:
The original Cup cars had wheels of 8×17 and 9.5×17, with an offset of 52mm and 68mm respectively. They also had 21mm spacers at the rear (giving an effective offset of 47mm. I also think post above is wrong as Mg wheels were 7.5 & 9
Phil
Phil,
What source are you referencing? You could ask me the same question regarding door material (I'm looking ;))
Christophorus could be wrong but I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Mark
OK, just saw your last post. The aluminum doors on the RS N-GT is still an open question. I know I read this somewhere.
Mark,
Here- http://carrerars.wordpress.com/ and here-http://964uk.com/Documents/Cup%20Car%20Article.pdf, I won't vouch for accuracy. I have never heard that N/GT cars had aluminum doors, please let me know If you can confirm this one way or another. I bought a set of RS door that were thought to be Al but they were steel.
Phil
Also wanted to complicate things further by saying there were two versions of the 9.5" Speedlines. Same part number, same offset, but different spoke width. And the difference is quite noticeable visually.
So I see why everyone gets confused- reading through some my Porsche books, they get all the details wrong.:eek:
Phil
Mark,
The Carrera 4 lightweights had AL doors.
Phil
My 964 RS NGT M003 has steel doors and the usual mag Cup design wheels.
However, I run the car on original 17" Cup wheels 8"x17 and 9.5"x17. These are aluminum NOT magnesium!
http://imageshack.us/a/img690/2984/ytgi.jpg
OK, these are the things that make a guy crazy. I sent an email to Steve Patti at Euro RS. He had the yellow RS N-GT for many years and this was his reply;
"Yes - the M003 Competition cars ("Club Sports", N-GT) has aluminum doors and hood."
Anatol, can you help with this??
Mark
Mark, my car has steel doors and aluminum hood. And I know it came like this from the factory.
Thanks for the reply. Makes me wonder how they were homologated. Weren't there around 300 built? How many were required for N-GT?
Mark
As a complement to my -67 912 soft window targa, I own the 38th bult -90, 964 cup.
Steel doors without the side impact steelbar.
/ Jesper
Jesper and Sten, thank you for your comments and welcome.
Does anyone have a copy of the homologation papers? This question could be resolved quickly. We know that the Base car, RS N-GT was not homologated with aluminum doors. If the doors were aluminum in the M003 Competition (Clubsport) version there will be an addendum to the original homologation document from my experience.
Mark
Also, if someone with one of these cars is REALLY bored during their Christmas holiday they could remove one of their door panels and check the production number stamping. If it matches the stamping on the rear deck of the tub that would be pretty hard to dispute.
As far as I know, alu doors was first installed on the 964 RSR.
/J
As Phil mentioned, they were also on the C4 Lightweights which slightly predate the RSR's.
Mark
Euro 91 Cup cars had Steel doors and front hood, not sure about 92MY
I have nothing to offer beyond the fact that I love the Cup Race video. The cars are so ... ALIVE ... and there's soooooo many of them banging doors. Great footage. Thanks for sharing.
A freind of me has a -91 euro cup, steel doors without steel impact bar.
/J
Yes, I agree. I have never heard of any 964 Cup that had aluminum doors. But I am here to learn. ;)
My 92 has steel and the door stampings are original to the car.
Raj, we are four pages into this thread and can't get past door material! Could be a long one........
Mark
Hi,
I own a 92 RS with factory installed aluminum doors.
And I also own a 92 Cup car with steel doors.
The aluminum had been a special feature for the RS and are similar to the
959 doors.
//
Manfred
I am wondering if a Touring 964 RS has AL doors and hood. Anyone know? Thanks.
Thank you Manfred, very interesting.
I do not have an order form but here is the parts list from Porsche Motorsports. Doors are on page 7.
http://www.carreracupusa.org/964-par...rts%20list.pdf
LOTS of info here. Thanks to Carrera Cup USA
Yes there are a difference.
As I have mentioned in My prior posts, the cup doors are without the side impact bars.
/J
I don't know currency of price list but I can't imagine an AL door would cost less than a wheel. I had a set of these doors and they were steel.
Phil
Only the 3.8 RSR had aluminium doors, as far as I know 959 doors.
I was corrected by Steve Patti regarding my terms in referencing the RS N-GT M003. Several times I used the term N-GT to describe the competition version.
Steve pointed out that the term N-GT is actually used to describe the Base car. He does not know where this term came from but Bob Gagnon uses it as well in his article, "Lightweight Carrera Confusion." He also said that he has never seen any Factory reference to this term. Anyway, it seems that the name is generally accepted. The N-GT or Base car was the car that Porsche used to homologate the RS for GT racing. From the N-GT came the conversion orders that became the M001, M002 and M003. There is also historical precedence for this method of classification dating back to 1973 with the RS.
http://www.carreracupusa.org/article...%20Edition.pdf
So if Steve and Bob are correct, and I think they are, I need to correct myself. I probably would not have mentioned any of this had Raj not posted Adrian Streathers chart. Adrian is well respected and deserves it. But he writes history differently on this subject. You can see why Bob titled his article what he did.
Mark
Yep, it is. I am presuming this is the class that Porsche homologated the 964 RS for. (Large volume GT) Someone gave the Base car the nickname NGT? It makes sense. Maybe Bob knows the answer.
So, what is the difference between an N-GT "base" car and an M003? Have you ever seen any documentation on that variation?
If we define a new dinosaur we should at least find some bones, shouldn't we?
Yes, I agree. Steve told me this week that he has 10 years worth of information on these cars. He said he would go through it after the holidays and let me know. Do you have anything you can share about yours?
Mark
This is what we are looking for only 20 years later! The method of classification the Factory used in 1973 is nearly the same as Bob Gagnon's article. That's why I think he is right. Also notice that the Factory does not use the names Homologation or RSH when describing the Base car, Lightweight when describing the M471,Touring the M472 or RSR the M491. These terms came from somewhere else. I am nearly certain that Olaf Lang was the first to use the term "Homologation Car" when describing the Base RS. My guess is the N-GT name came about in a similar way.
Before wrong concepts are spread, I would like to prove that M001 is the base car, M002 the touring version and M003 the version with NGT race package. These are official designations and not nick names awarded by the public.
The source I can offer you is the technical service documentation published in 1992:
http://imageshack.us/a/img10/5286/orzq.jpg
On the following page the three official versions are differentiated as regards to the transmission. The names "Basis" (i.e. "base"), "Touring" and "Sport/NGT" are used:
http://imageshack.us/a/img21/9470/r7e4.jpg
On the next page the different options for each variation are listed. Again the terms "Basis", "Touring" and "Race/M003" are used:
http://imageshack.us/a/img6/7532/v7vf.jpg
These official documents clearly prove that there is no such car as a base car from which all the other variants are derived. The base car is a variant in itself, namely the M001 car with carpets and leather bucket seats as opposed to the M002 Touring with full appointment and the M003 Race/NGT without carpets but with full welded cage and cloth bucket seats.
Thanks Anatol. That's great. Appreciate you taking the time to do this.
It will be nice to have this as a reference. :)
Mark
Mark, you are welcome!
Merry Christmas to all of you!
Thought I would post my Speedline story that I mentioned in an earlier post. I know this will be interesting to maybe two and a half people but it was helpful to me as I try to put a set together for my 92 Cup. The 8 x 18" fronts were also used on the 3.6 Turbo so they are somewhat available but the 9.5 x 18 rears were exclusive to the RS Cups. I have found one but still need another. Then I find out from Speedline guru Jim Dorociak that there are two versions. So now trying to find a rare matching wheel got twice as hard. Even though they are different they have the same part number.
Here is the early version. The spokes are noticeably lighter than the later version when viewed from the back. Jim said this version was prone to cracking. Photos 4,5 and 6 are the later version.
Later version.
Another apparent contradiction........
Several references state that when the 964 Cup was used in the first Supercup in 1993 a second door beam was required. (like in the yellow car) So I'm watching the Monaco Supercup race and here's Walter Rohl sitting in his car. :confused:
Mark
Mark,
That is correct- the early matter cages had just one diagonal door brace and were later upgraded to a x-brace in 93.
Phil
Hi Phil,
That's my point. Why is there not one in Rohl's car if they were supposedly required in 1993. That photo is
the 1993 Monaco Supercup race.
Mark
This is what makes competition cars so interesting. These questions get answered but usually by obsessive-compulsive enthusiasts that take the time to do a little homework. And many times they come years later when a car is being restored which is my situation. I have spoken to the original owner a couple times. He was running a four car team and also driving. Do you think he remembers which cars were running Speedlines (much less which version) and which cars had airjacks? :rolleyes:
So it's guys like us that sit around and try to sort out the details. Trivial minutiae, I love it. :)
Happy New Year!
Mark
Mark, with race cars you have to ask, at which race meeting? To be honest to be precise you would have to ask, which practice session or during the race. A Spec series makes it less likely to see major changes. Also older cars can be grandfathered in or given a number of events to be brought into compliance. The promoters and series officials seemed to often opt for full field over strict compliance. It is usually that older spec is thought to be less competitive.
Yes, agreed.
Rohl's car was a 1992 chassis. The Factory still owns it. I am speculating that the 21 (or15 depending on which source you are quoting) cars that were built in 1993 had the extra door beams (I have seen 3). Did the teams ballast these cars to a spec. weight? I have never heard this. And yet the difference in weight between a 1992 car and a 1993 with the extra door beams and airjacks has to be 40-45 pounds. A big number in a spec series.
That Wagenpass belongs to this car. It was one of the four cars that my car teamed with, Goebel Sport. It went to New Zealand in 1993 with my car. The last entry in the Wagenpass is Wellington, a track there. Both cars came to the U.S. about the same time but independent of each other which is kind of strange. I lost track of it when Ron Savenor sold it. If anyone knows where it is could you please let me know? Thanks.
Hi All
happy New Year from France.
I am a new joiner on this forum, with 2 ex 964.
I have some 964 photos to share :
http://imageshack.us/scaled/large/534/mebg.png
http://imageshack.us/scaled/large/543/tg9e.jpg
http://imageshack.us/scaled/large/59/ehg6.jpg
http://imageshack.us/scaled/large/829/f4y3.jpg
http://imageshack.us/scaled/large/546/3mi3.jpg
http://imageshack.us/scaled/large/9/9p13.jpg
http://imageshack.us/scaled/large/30/enfc.jpg
http://imageshack.us/scaled/large/28/icz5.jpg
http://imageshack.us/scaled/large/850/cwvh.jpg
Anyone see this one on Ebay, it is 15 minutes from my house: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-911-...US_Cars_Trucks
Those are great! Thanks for posting. :)
Great cars, great races.
Is there a car for sale ? Thanks for helping.
Thank you, but I am looking for a race car.
Many of the photos lacouelle posted capture the spirit of the series. I was at Hockenheim in 1993 and I never would have believed it. Huge crowds. And it wasn't just there. Porsche sent me this photo of my car at the Norisring.
Why could it not be just as big here?
Also went to the museum. Interesting that this was the first car you saw when you entered. It looked like it had just come off the track.
I remember thinking that this must be important to them.
I'm am watching this thread with interest as I am also currently looking at Euro Cup cars. Can someone advise on the cage in this '92 version? It looks like there are too many bars but I am a definite freshman on these cars
Attachment 276244
one more
Attachment 276251
If that is a factory Matter cage it has seen some major modifications. And definitely a few extras thrown in. But it looks like there could be a Matter sticker on the left "A" pillar tube. Can you check? If you want to see an original go to the rennlist link in post #2. Have you checked the VIN number of this car?
Mark
I'am following this great thred.
Now I want to show you something very special, a little pice of "Carrera Cup" history.
It is the official Service Mobile from the Cup, It's one of the rare B32 Porsches, so it is fitted with the 3,2 ltr engine original by Porsche.
The condition is total original including the stickers on the car. See also the BB-PW (Böblingen Porsche Weissach) original number plate.
So it is also the fastes Porsche Camper ;-)
Like it?
Attachment 276287Attachment 276288Attachment 276289
Wow, this is amazing! I had no idea. The Fuchs wheels with VW center caps is an interesting detail.
Love it. What is pulling the trailer in the first photo? Does Porsche still own it?
Mark
Thank you. Pulling the Trailer? A normal VW, modern.
No, Porsche dont owne it, the B32 is private.
This is the 3.2ltr engine.
Attachment 276364
Windows are out for paint.
If you ever wondered what the difference is between standard and RS/RS Cup glass ...............
Mark,
I can't quite figure out what is going on here, can you talk me through your pic.
Phil
Phil,
The dial caliper is set at the standard glass thickness, 4.9 mm. Some quote 4.7 mm but that's the reading I got from my C2 door glass. The glass in the photo is the rear quarter from the RS Cup which is 3mm. All the glass in the Cup, except the windshield, is 3mm.
According to Bob Gagnon the door glass in your U.S. Cup is 3mm. Can you confirm this?
Mark
Mark,
Thanks for the explanation, that is what I thought. The glass from my cup is stored as car has lexan in it right now. I'll pull it out and measure it, it supposed to have a 959 part # on it as well.
Phil
Thanks, I'm curious. I just noticed that yesterday. Bob Gagnon has that in a footnote in his article.
While you are at it could you also check the numbers on your rear quarters. I just noticed that my 1992 C2 has the same quarters as the Cup. It is the only glass in the car that has the 001057 numbers which is 3mm. Here's a photo of each.
as far as i know, the M23100 determines the number for thin glass.
only on the thinner glass this should be M23100 (at least as far as i know and for the 964, no idea about the other types that have used it (959-993?)
all side windows and rear window should have this marking whenthin glass was used on a 964.
regards
Hgo
any ideas on the value of this thin glass?
regards
Hgo
I would think the the glass used in the US cups is different than what was used in euro cars due to DOT requirements. I'll pull part #'s next week when I'm back home. It is my understanding that the glass used in US cups is still available through Porsche, I have not confirmed this.
Phil
1991 Porsche 911 / 964 Cup
ex Alzen 964 RS CUP
130.000 $
http://www.classicdriver.com/de/car/...up/1991/203039
Attachment 276869Attachment 276870
org RS Cup mit ONS Wagenpass und mit KFZ Brief!!!,neuer Motor 3,8 Liter ,neues 6 Gang Getriebe(45ooo.- Rechnung vorhanden),Auto wurde 1992 mit neuer Rohkarosse vom Werk Rechnung ist dabei auf RSR breit umgebaut (Peter Schleifer Günzburg),es gibt selten ein Cupauto mit einer
Strassenzulassung! sofort einsatzbereicht, 4 Felgen seperat dabei, Matterkäfig ab Werk eingeschweisst,viele Unterlagen dabei, Motor+Getriebe erst 5ookm
Do you know what the 43R 001057 is referring to? Maybe I should not assume it is specific to the thin glass but it is also on the 993 RS 3mm glass. (Photo from recent Rennlist discussion) The markings I posted above are on every piece of glass except the windshield on the Cup. On my 1992 C2 it is only on the rear quarters. Do you know what M23100 means by any chance?
Mark
These prices are for used. I have no idea if they are typical.
959.542.501.00 Triangle glass 350€
959.542.502.00 Triangle glass 350€
959.542.101.02 Doorglass 325€
959.542.102.02 Doorglass 325€
964.543.101.00 Sidewindow rear 180€
964.543.102.00 Sidewindow rear 180€
964.545.107.08 Rearwindow 750€
+19% VAT
Does anyone have a copy of this poster in hi-res?
Attachment 276886
I always thought it was the same as the U.S. spec. 964's because of DOT. That's why I was surprised to read Bob Gagnons comment on the thin door glass.
Also, the U.S. Cup Parts list that Porsche Motorsport put out shows nothing regarding glass which leads one to think it is
standard. But I could be wrong. (again)
http://www.carreracupusa.org/964-par...rts%20list.pdf
would the thin glass not be Ok for US also
on all the markings it says DOT with a number, so I always supposed that this was the US DOT, so allowed for US also????
thanks for the prices, i have some thin glass parts lying around coming from raced Cup/NGT cars going to plastic windows in lower local racing series
I had no idea that the rear glass was still available somewhere
no idea about the meaning of the codes, but more used on German cars then only for Porsche
this is from a Mercedes forum....
Hi everyone. I'm hoping that someone canhelp me identify which year and model Mercedes a Saint Gobain Sekurit (SGS) hardtop comes from.
They saythenumberson the rear glass are as follows:
43 R 001057
DOT 27 M23100 AS2
I would appreciate any info or advice as to whereI could find the year and model this hardtop belongs to.
Thanks for your response.
also used for European ford and Vw product according to my friend google
another Mercedes glass
dot code stands for the manufacturer
so DOT 27 is Saint gobain Securex Germany
The AS number stands for American Standard, and is “AS” (or “American Standard”) followed by a number indicating the position in which the glass may be used, based on its optical quality. AS1 is the clearest glass (at least 70% light transmission), is laminated, and can be used anywhere in a motor vehicle (typically just the windshield), AS2 is tempered with at least 70% light transmissions, and can be used anywhere except the windshield, and AS3 can be used in certain locations in certain vehicles (and can be laminated or tempered, and has less than 70% light transmission). There are higher numbers used for other purposes, but are not normally encountered in cars. This number must be near the manufacturer’s name/logo, preferably below it (per Z26.1996). - See more at: http://www.carwindshields.info/winds....5r8B66Np.dpuf
The M number is a model number for the piece of glass, which identifies the type of construction. The M number is unique to the manufacturer, so one an M number of M312 by one manufacturer could be different than glass labeled as M312 by another manufacturer. It identifies the glass construction, including the color and thickness. An M number may be used by multiple part numbers. - See more at: http://www.carwindshields.info/winds....5r8B66Np.dpuf
this should explain it all
sorry link did not work
That is very interesting. So I guess we can assume that any glass marked AS is legal in the U.S.? But we can not assume that the Mercedes glass in post 101 is the same construction spec. as the Porsche glass even though they have the same M23100?
Great information, thanks.
Mark
I think it will be the same kind of glass (chemically) and done in the same production way but it will not relate to the same thickness.
what i can find is that the code from saint-gobain glass group is the type of glass, like what is in it what was the process used and is there a coating-colouring or not
There appears to be a run for the exits in GTC1 for some reason. Ron's car and 2 other nice ones are available. I was just looking at all of them a few days ago. I also see that tey are mostly being advertised in Europe. Hard times in N.A., very sad
vicarpity,
Sent you a P.M.
Does anyone have information on engine numbers and what years they were for? I know the spec changed in '92 but I cant find any info on the numbers. The reason I ask is I am looking at a '92 car but the engine number looks to be too early to be a '92 engine but I have no records of the change over.
Anyone??
Page 1 and 2
http://www.carreracupusa.org/article...%20Edition.pdf
1990-62L00001, 1991-62M00001, 1992-62N80001, 1993-62P00001
The Cup engines were selected from the production run and carry no numeric "Cup" identifier so you need a Wagenpass or COA from Porsche to authenticate an engine that was actually in a Cup car. And unless Porsche's policy has changed they will not give information by engine number, only by VIN. A real problem if you are trying to find an engines original home.
,
Thanks for that Mark, looks like it falls within the range
Do we know how many M001's left.
I made a quick count on the RS Database and these are their current numbers, give or take;
1990- 22
1991- 34
1992- 33
1993- 3
These numbers represent approximately one third of the total production.
about 1/3 of all the cars for the database are on the database
but not all cars alive are on the database
i regularly come accross cars that are not on it
And i know of cars that are still not on it because the owner does not want them on
but i think about 1/2 will be realistic
do not know how many cup car are in the US, but a lot moved over after active racing life in Europe
Thanks Mark / hgo
Can we see Car #vin/team/driver
Other than VIN, you can not access detailed information on the site. It will tell you what information they have but not the particulars. Martin Lawrence is the administrator and is very helpful if you have a specific question about a specific car.
www.964rsdatabase.com
1990 Porsche 911 / 964 Cup
orginales cupauto erste serie 1990
http://www.classicdriver.com/de/car/...up/1990/206735
Attachment 279301
Finally located the Homologation documents for the C2 and RS. Just starting to go through them but a couple of things are interesting.
The RS was not homologated as an evolution of the C2. They were separate. The C2 was B-295 and the RS was B-296. Once you get into
them it becomes obvious how different the two cars are. It does not appear that the C4 was homologated for competition.
There was a lot of confusion earlier in this thread about door material. It is clearly stated in B-296 that they are steel. I thought they might
be listed as a VO (option variant) but they are not. The only variants listed are gear ratios.
Mark
Mark,
Thanks for posting this, please summarize your findings.
Phil
I will. Really glad they are bilingual. My German is Nicht gut. :rolleyes:
Attachment 286429Attachment 286430
Hi guys New too this Page, this is Me and my fathers 1991 Completly original 964 Cup car production number 116, 1 of 4 swedish new sold cars, if you have eny questions i will be trying too answer them with pictures if you need
//Oliver
Very nice Oliver! Thank you for posting photos. Do you have any showing the interior, engine, and front trunk area?
Any problems road registering the car?
Mark
[/ATTACH]Attachment 286444Attachment 286445Attachment 286446
Thanks MarkH! here are some pictures, Engine bay, Front trunk Area (battery is out) interior (right now the original steering wheel is attached) and a picture from Nurburgring with BBS E88, now sold and using the original genuine 964 Cup Rims with special dim
//Ollie
Attachment 286447
here is a bigger better picture of the interior.
//Ollie
Thanks Varunan123!
No cup cars came with Aluminium Doors, the doors at my Cupcar is original from factory, matched numbers on the doors with the body shell confirmed from the 964 RS database Owner, the "hollow" feeling when shutting the doors in is from there is no Crash beam in the doors.
the Airbox had that little snout like eny C2/C4/RS have its just not in the picture and today its put back too place :-)
//Ollie
mhm.. that im afraid i can't answer!
my father does not race with the Cup car, its too much value too race with, we are just using it too drive safely at Porsche Club Swedens trackdays 3-4 times a year for fun becuse it belongs on the track :-) we had the car since 2008, before that a Ruby Stone red 92-RS
//Ollie
Very nice, thank you. Was there any difficulty registering the car for road use in Sweden?
I was also wondering where you located the stickers for the car?
Raj, My car also has original numbered doors and they are steel with no door beams. The 964 RSR and C4 Lightweight doors are aluminum. I still have not heard for certain if the 3.8 RS are or not.
Mark
the car was registred for the Road in Sweden very early, my dad knows the history very well but there is told that one guy got a Cup car registred after that people tryed and it passed, i dont think it will pass today if someone tried!
a bunch of Stories online, i dont remember every one of them im afraid of since it was back in 2008!
//Ollie
Outstanding Car Ollie, Thank you for posting and jarring a twenty year old memory...
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...3&d=1396390223
Olaf with the blue rs
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...4&d=1396390271
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...5&d=1396390332
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...6&d=1396390372
1992 article from the PCA zone 1 may/June 1992 Northlander that I thought you may enjoy...
1992 Carrera RS
By Curt Hammill (Text and Photo)
In early 1991 I had heard that Porsche was coming out with some new models and I was ecstatic that they would be offering the Carrera RS lightweights. This is a performance car that uses the weight-to-power formula as a selling point. I have always considered all of the Spyders, 356GT, 356 Carrera, 911R, 911RS, and RSR’s very special models and felt that they kept the power-to-weight aspect in the forefront of their development. The Carrera Cup car and the Carrera RS will easily fit with this stand of historic cars.
In the later months of 1991 I was shocked to read that this new street performance car would not be offered in the USA. Though Porsche would offer the American RS 1992, there are subtle differences between it and the Carrera RS.
In April of this year (1992) I had set up an appointment with the documentation department to acquire the production data for my Porsche. When I arrived at the Porsche facilities in Ludwigsburg I found myself waiting in a showroom with several nice Porsches including a Signal Green Carrera Cup Car. As I waited to meet with Olaf Lang, who had the info I had requested on my car, I admired these Porsches. After Herr Lang arrived we went over the production data for my 1969 911E. During the course of our conversation the Carrera RS came up, I then found out that Herr Lang is a Porsche race car driver, and, among other Porsches, drives a Carrera Cup Car in the endurance cup races (i.e. 24 hours on the Nurburgring), and that he had just been out test driving a new Carrera Cup Car. (See your Pano for April 1992, page 51). He then asked if I would like to go for a test ride in a Carrera RS!!!!! Well, I jumped at the opportunity, after all it was a slow Monday, and this would definitely put me in the right frame of mind for the week. It was like a Genie granting three Porsche wishes, and getting two at the same time. The first wish was to ride in the Carrera RS, and the second to be piloted by one fast driver.
We walked down to a building in the back to pick up a Blue Carrera RS; along with the Blue RS there were nine 959’s in for factory service ($$$$$$$$$). We climbed in over the Recaro fiberglass seats, upholstered in color-coordinated leather. The seats have high balusters to handle the side G; I felt that the seats were functional as well as very comfortable (especially compared to my 1969 sport seats).
The distance from the facility to the autobahn was adequate to warm the engine and brakes. Lang handled the car smoothly as we four wheel drifted through the on-ramp and to the autobahn. The roadway had mild traffic, so we were able to check the RS’s acceleration on the top end (160) and also the stability of high speed braking. Olaf asked if I would like to drive the car, I refused- stating that I was enjoying the ride too much. I didn’t mention that I was more than slightly intimidated by Lang’s very professional driving skills. It was worth letting Lang drive the last off ramp anyway as the back lateral movement was faster than the front, Lang handled the situation perfectly.
There is an excellent discussion on Cup 1 wheels right now on Rennlist and your Cup Car photos are contributing to it. Thanks!
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...l#post11261235
Hi Mark, This green cup car was new ... I think it is the same Cup car on page 1 and 8 of this forum post.
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...9&d=1396402470
Hi Guys,
I started that thread on Rennlist in an effort to find more on the Cup 1's I have in the garage. Many questions and interesting posts about these wheels!!!
On the early cup cars, i.e. before the switch to 18" wheels, the Cup 1 wheels were aluminum alloy. The Euro RS always came with magnesium alloy Cup 1 wheels.
The wheel dimensions on the cup cars were 8 & 9,5x17 and 7,5 & 9x17 on the RS.
Raj
7.5 delta is 10.6 for Al Vs 8.4 or about 4.6 lbs, for the 9's it's 5.5 lbs, not huge but not insignificant, it's un-sprung weight, evil stuff
Phil
Sorry Ollie, I am losing my mind. :rolleyes:
A few seat photos.
Interesting that the date stamp is on the part number sticker, 16.01.92
Another detail, the 964 RSR crest is different.
Later seats had plastic doughnuts rather than glued vinyl to secure seat cover at belt openings.
Also added Recaro logo on back of headrest.
Ollie, sent you a P.M.
The seat carries the shell no. like the doors, engine lid, and body.
That seat comes from a later RS based Cup.
142
LS series cars start with C2 shell 150.
It is nice to see my cup feature in 3 different colour schemes in this thread. I am sure these came from French Auto forum. I posted them there.
If you want to see a detailed Cup restoration go to www.speedservice.nl
The added x bars to the original cage were removed.
Welcome Charles. I hope a few more owners will contribute to this thread!
Mark
Attachment 290016
Porsche Museum Cup Car
Attachment 290017
No. 48 and 50 at Spa
Attachment 290115
1990 & 1991 Cups at Spa, Eau Rouge.
The ribbing is different between the earlier and later versions too. If you notice the earlier version has a raised vertical rib, looks thicker than the later version. I am also curious to know why the Euro RS version of these seats had 9 ribs while these had 5. I thought it was for rigidity and safety. Curious why the Cup seats, used in racing, would only have utilized the 5 rib design.
Yes, good catch on the seats.
Charles, how fast are you going through Eau Rouge?
^ Who cares, he's going faster than Mel!
Funny story. We had the late great Sean Edwards in the pit garage giving us lessons. Man was gifted!
Hakki was first out in the LS50 Tip Cup above. Sean was instructing via intercom.
Basically foot to the floor out of La Source and tight on the wall to the pit hut then cut across to the apex taking plenty of paint.
Now Hakki heard this and the off throttle at the hut slightly.
Due to noise etc he missed the dab the brakes going into the compression and took poor Sean for a spin up the hill.
You just need a dab to get turn in up the hill.
46 sec. I only have 265bhp so a lot less than 997 Cup S etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=O0iG58QkCJE
I am in 4th at 5-6000rpm. 230kph at braking on Kemel.
Attachment 290228
Plenty of lateral G here!
Didn't realize these had become so valuable, shouldn't be a surprise.
Phil
Yesterday I was on a season starter rallye with my 964 RS Clubsport. Roland Asch, 1991 Porsche Cup champion, and Markus Winkelhock, son of the late Manfred Winkelhock and himself a seasoned racer, were driving new McLaren 650S, going quite swiftly through the country.
Asch told many fascinating stories from his active racing time. And he was all over my RS, pointing out that the 964 RS was the last Porsche you really had to handle. He still holds his 964 Cup in very fond memory.
Good fun with good guys!
Anatol can you ask him if he knows the VIN of his first Cup from 1990?
I have this info but could do with the VIN.
1990 Colour Rubystone R. Asch German cup Race no. 17 Longines/Leutwiler VIN ??
Sorry, no information readily available. I will come back to you should something pop up!
Continue to work on assembly. Before we put the windshield back in I thought I would take a couple detail shots showing the modified dash ends to clear the cage. It's hard to see when the windshield is in. Also a shot of the modified door caps. They just cut them off and finished the end with vinyl.
Still working on the wheels. The Cup 1's are being refinished and I am still trying to put together a set of Speedlines.
Also looking for a ABS dash switch. I actually have the switch but missing the red knob. Any help appreciated.
Wow wow wow !
Nice work.
And also a nice 924 Carrera GT next to it.
Mark,
ABS switch is a few $ from OPC. It is a Bosch part. Part Nos. are on the US cup site pdf.
I just gave them the parts I needed and hey presto they supplied the lot.
You get red, yellow and white covers and the whole switch unit.
Charles
Thanks Charles. That's great news. Strange that Porsche Motorsport told me last week that they were NLA. Said they even checked with Weissach.
Mark
Found it, thanks again!
Attachment 291243
Bosch no. may help!
Got the switch. If you are not putting one in, read no further. If you are, you will need to remove the knob before you install it. Mine was not packaged like the one above. There is probably a Bosch tool for this but I do not have it. Here is a photo of the old switch without the knob. If I had not had it for a reference I am sure I probably would have broke the new one. The two forked pieces have to be depressed to clear the detents in the knob while you slide it off the shaft. You have no way of seeing this with the knob on. There is also a bulb that sits between the forks which should be removed too. I used an X-Acto knife blade on the side of each fork to move them enough to clear the detent in the knob. I know it sounds confusing but just having this photo will give you a fighting chance.
What should have been a 5 minute job.
Found a picture of my -90 cup, upgraded to RSR spec. for -93 sesason:)Attachment 295181
I pulled the center console out yesterday. By the look of the fasteners and all the crud underneath it doesn't look like it has ever been out. I was surprised to find this sticker underneath at the back end of the console. Made me wonder if the competition cars used a different one than the street cars but I can not see any difference. I know this whole NGT subject has been discussed in earlier posts but this is the first time I have seen a part identified like this.
Here is a RS Cup with an interesting story. Delivered new to Japan and never raced. I assume they forfeited the 50,000 DM bond that required the cars to run at least five Cup races? But the car has not been sitting around collecting dust either. (39,000 KM) Good for him!
http://www.finecars.cc/en/detail/car...cache=1&ret=63
Not a cup but a nice RS for sale:
http://2shores.com/cars/offers/1992-....8l/236/detail
Phil
Nice thread MarkH, any more updates?
here's my 1990 Carrera 2 Cup...
Attachment 304403
Avus Germany 1990
Attachment 304404
Misano Italy 1998
Attachment 304405
Rennsport Reunion III, Daytona 2007
Attachment 304406
Nice car and photos, thanks for sharing them!
I do not have much new to report, busy summer. I did get the seat and center console back in the car. We tried to save the original seat cover but it was too far gone. Ordered a new one from Recaro that took three months to get. I was told it would be correct to 1992 spec, wrong. All the belt hole trims had to be changed plus the rear of the headrest cover had "Recaro" embroidered in it like the front. Rather than send it back we made the changes ourselves. Used the embroidered Porsche crest from the original cover.
Hello -
In December last year I posted a Wanted 964 Cup post in the Rennlist Forum. I had a few PM's and eventually found a 1992 Euro Cup car in New Zealand. The car had a brief european racing history....the WagenPass has been "misplaced" by one of the prior owners (I am still hopeful it will be found). But we know it raced in 1992 and was in an accident and rechassied by the factory. It raced briefly in 1993 and was sold to a New Zealander in the pits at Zolder. The car has been in New Zealand since. There it raced for many years and changed hands a few times.
The seller had acquired the car with the intent of doing some restoration but changed his mind. The car had been partially disassembled. The seller had engaged the shop that maintained the car historically to help sell the car. This person really wanted the car restored and had lots of energy to get it done. It seemed to make little sense to reassemble the car to ship it, and so we agreed to restore the car there. During its life it suffered some bumps and bruises and not always repaired with the finest attention to detail. The car spent quite some time in the body shop and many new parts were ordered! I have attached before and after pictures. You may recognize the car from a prior post on this thread. I think it turned out well...non! Back to it's original colour. I also chose the livery that was on the cars as delivered (more or less). The guys did a great job.
It is currently on a boat sailing towards Vancouver. It will be a track toy in the PNW......
Many thanks to MarkH for his guidance during my little project.
Cheers,
Steve
Steve,
Congrats, these are fantastic track cars, enjoy.
Phil
A very talented team of Kiwi's! :)
It will be great to have another car in the Pacific Northwest.
Thanks Mark... nice job on the recaro seat.
Congrats Steve! great looking Cup. when was the x bar added?
I've been meaning to start restoring mine but being my only Porsche and not wanting to go without for a year, I found it difficult to pull the trigger! That is until I bought this last week...... Attachment 305175
Start date is now set for the end of October just after I turn 40 :eek: Restoration tips and advice are always welcome :cool:
Oh my! A man after my own heart. You will have sooooo much fun with that!
For tips and parts ask Tom at www.werk924.com or join www.mytransaxle.de, the best forum for usual transaxles and Special ones like the Carrera GT or the GTS.
Rhegra. Thanks appreciated! 924cgt parts or information are always welcome... PM me to keep this thread on topic :cool:
Mark. Noticed your cgt in a previous post and couldn't resist.
Steve. Surely you mean re-shelled?
Hi P09 -
I never asked when the the cage was modified but the style is different than the x bars shown on some of the euro cup cars in this thread so assume it was done in New Zealand. I elected to leave the cage as is instead of bringing it back to the way it was. Re-shelled is probably a better term.....
Cheers,
Steve
Attachment 305649
I put my bar back to original or my Mechanic did as he said the welding was poor for the add on cross bar.
Easier to get in and out of too!
P09......
Regarding the cage in Steve's car, there were at least three cars that had these modifications. All were done in NZ and I am guessing they were done by Owen Evans race shop. He was one of the major RSR/Cup players at the time. Here is a 1993-1994 article and photo of one of the three. Can't say for sure it is Steve's car but likely. It is hard to see the diagonal bar to the roll hoop but it is there. Bridgestone sponsored a very competitive GT series at the time and there were a number of Cups that made their way down under after the European season was over.
And another.........
And one more.....
Just came across this one. Usual "aggressive" JZM pricing.
http://www.jzmporsche.com/porsche-fo...p-for-sale-604
The original Cup Wheels 1990-1991 had not one-piece cast magnesium Cup Wheels, it was one-piece cast Aluminium.
To my knowledge, no 964 Cup was delivered with Mg wheels. But never say never when it comes to Porsche. I was told that there were no passenger seats in Cups but mine was delivered with one. And how about that warning triangle and first aid kit when you are broke down on the Nurburgring! ;)
Great thread, great cars! I'm jealous because I don't own one!!!
Erik
Have not seen this one before;
The ex-Enrico Walcher 1991 Porsche 964 Cup. Chassis #70 was one of just 120 M001 Cups delivered new by Porsche in 1991. Order by the Walcher family, the then owners of Porsche Italia S.P.A. The build was completed on 29 January 1991 and the Wagen Pass inspection took place at Weissach on 22 February 1991. The car was then delivered to Armin Knupfing Motorsport (Mr Knupfing had been a key member of the Porsche 964 Cup design and development team) to be prepared for the upcoming 1991 Carrera Cup. Chassis #70 was issued with race number 42 and entered 9 rounds of the 1991 championship including Grand Prix support races at Monza and Silverstone. During 1992 chassis #70 took part in a small number of endurance races including events at Spa, Nurburgring and Vallelunga. At the end of the 1992 season chassis #70 was returned to Porsche and the Matter cage was upgraded to Supercup specification, Carrera Cup mirrors were fitted and 18" Carrera Cup Speedline three piece rims were specified. However, despite the preparation works and the car being inspected for the 1993 Carrera Cup season, evidenced by the Wagen Pass, it is understood that chassis #70 was returned to Porsche Italia S.P.A and placed in to storage. In 2000 chassis #70 was exported to the US and in 2009 was entered in the PCA Championship. At the end of the 2009 season chassis #70 was sold to its current owner and exported to Europe. Significantly, chassis #70 still retains its original body-shell and factory chassis and production number stampings, together with its valuable and complete Type M64/01 Cup engine. It comes complete with documented history file, including original Wagen Pass, PCA Passport, UK registration, all taxes paid in Europe. http://www.fa-automobile.com/detail-...o&id=44&v=4309
So I'm curious are these being sold for $300k
Phil
Probably need a couple "reputable" auction results to know for sure.
Where were all you buyers just two years ago when these were selling at a high of $150K. Party is over. $$$$ going up fast!!
Well........... we seem to have another contradiction. I came across this build sheet for #8080 and one of the options is #404 which I always assumed were 17" aluminum Cup wheels. Martin Lawrence at the 964RS Database confirmed that #404 are magnesium. The aluminum wheels are #403 which matches the hood sticker on my 1992 C2. Martin said all the Cup Cars he has listed on the Registry have aluminum wheels. So what's up?? The second photo is a wheel on #8080, clearly aluminum. The third photo is a Mg wheel for comparison. #8080 is an interesting car. It has been road registered in Japan since new and never raced. If the car was delivered new with Mg wheels they are long gone. The car recently returned to Germany.
How can you tell the difference between the magnesium and aluminum wheels in these photos? And since we are on the subject what is the weight savings?
#8088, A few more photos.
Two markings on the Mg wheel, top and top right. The first one says Made by SM, the second Magnesium. Wheel weights, http://www.944racing.de/wheelweights.php
Interesting, thanks!
Here is some good footage from the Bridgestone GT series. Steve, I would be willing to bet both of our cars are in this race. Notice the cage in #5 Bagnall car in the opening sequence. Thanks to Glyn Taylor for posting this to youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJw83TwSFEc
Hi Mark - Really neat video. Yep....my car is #5. Andrew Bagnall owned my car then. I have log books and correcpondance from that time. I will go through them and see if I can see anything related to this race.
Thanks for posting this. Cheers,
Steve
One for sale -http://www.classicdriver.com/en/car/porsche/911-964-cup/1990/235397
Phil
Asking is EUR 350.000,--