Coachbuilders for Porsche +/- on Value or Perception?

Just curious if there is, or ever has been, any negative (or positive) sentiment toward bodies made for Porsche by Karmann, Reutter, Drauz (sp?), etc. Have there been any defects or differences of note that alter their value one way or the other?

In modern manufacturing, that sort of thing could be construed as outsourcing, farming-out, contracting, whatever... but generally not regarded as a positive, often even percieved as being less than the "real thing". Was that the case back then or no?

BA

I would always pick a Karmann out of the 69-71 bodies. Weight will always make a diffrence. As the late great Smokey used to say "the loss of 7 pounds will be compairable too gaining about 1 hp". And since the loss of 100 pounds of is equal to gaining about 10 ponies. Gee the choice is clear to me Mr Obvious:D .
Regards. Bill

I don't know about 35 years ago. But today? The early 911 body that's worth the most is the one with the least amount of rust. :D

Brad-
The Reuter cars got galvanized floor pans in '70, whereas the Karman cars did not. I have heard claims that there are other differences, but no one has ever been explicit about the matter. As for "outsourcing," the use of coach builders used to be the norm. Porsche didn't buy Reuter until the early '70s, and had not produced bodies of their own to any great degree prior to that acquisition.

-Scott

Thanks guys, that's why I asked!

So was it the galvinizing that made Reuters heavier? A little confused about that... Were the Karmann cars structurally different in any way making them lighter?

I'm not sure were I got it, but I thought Reuter was bought in the later 356 era... thanks Scott for the update. I do realize that coachbuilding was totally the norm in Europe, and that's part of what makes cars of this and previous eras so unique!

BA

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I'm not sure were I got it, but I thought Reuter was bought in the later 356 era...

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It was .. the summer of 1963.

Richard

Jeff Smith is the guy to answer these questions. He has owned both, and could likely supply an inventory of the differences. I don't think the weight difference can be attributed to the galvanizing.
-Scott

This earlier thread was useful to me...

http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...hlight=karmann

It still doesn't answer the question- what are some of the differeences between a Karmann car and a Reutter/porsche car besides galvanizing?

ex. extra sheetmetal, different welding method, etc??

Erick

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Originally Posted by sithot

Different Germans...;)

Tom

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That about sums it up...

Until this thread I was under the impression that Karmann bodied cars were ever so slightly less desirable. But then that's likely old BS as well....

There is likely is no definitive answer...

What is the difference in weight between the differently manufactured cars?

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What is the difference in weight between the differently manufactured cars?

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I don't know if the wight difference is documented but I have heard from someone who regularly trades STs and other exotic 911 that the works STs were all Karmann built because of the lighter weight, whereas the customer STs were from the regular S series production line at Porsche

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Originally Posted by WCB4

I would always pick a Karmann out of the 69-71 bodies. Weight will always make a diffrence. As the late great Smokey used to say "the loss of 7 pounds will be compairable too gaining about 1 hp". And since the loss of 100 pounds of is equal to gaining about 10 ponies. Gee the choice is clear to me Mr Obvious.
Regards. Bill

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Imagine the performance gained with 97 pound Danica Patrick driving your car in speed events:D

Pure rumor:

Some time in the ‘70s I asked this question of a group of Porsche KG engineers and executives at a cocktail party. Referring to the post Porsche acquisition of Reuter, the unanimous response was Karmann. The reason told was that Karmann had to exceed Porsche’s specifications trying to retain the contract.

I asked how and the response was fit & finish and the number of spot welds.

True? … who knows?

Best,
Grady

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Originally Posted by sithot

Different Germans...;)

Tom

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I re-read this thread because of another question on the board. Tom, thanks for a great laugh. I needed one this AM.

After crwaling around in, on, over, through & under many of both types of 911s ( Porsche / Reuter and Karmann ) including a complete bare-metal disassembly and nut & bolt restoration of my own Karmann bodied '70 911 T I have found one single tangible, physical detail that is visibly different between the two coachbuilders:

Porsche/Reuter made cars have a metal brace connecting two brackets, one welded to the underside of the cowl, about midway between the wiper arm mountings, the other on the trunk floor below it. Obviously the purpose of this brace is to stabilize & prevent vibration of the cowl sheet metal, since the entire wiper mechanism is suspended from it

Karmann bodies do not have this brace, or perhaps I should claim in my best legalese, I have never seen a Karrman body equipped with this brace.

Please see the photo I took of a known Porsche / Reuter bodyied specimen, at Parade in Portland in '06. I have indicated the brace with a green arrow. This is the clearest photo I have of that detail. (The reason I took this photo is because I really loved all the detail in Jeff Smith's trunk compartment and I wanted a record of it to emulate his work later on in my machine).

If anyone can show additional specific details that varied between the two other than invoking the old double-secret "certain other differences", please, have at it. I'd love to see them.

Also, I don't believe that there is is a repeatable, consistent 100 lb. difference between the two types of bodies. God only knows how myths like that get started and why these rumors are propagated, but it simply isn't credible to claim that one is that much heavier than the other without being able able to point out where the extra weight resides & is hidden. I submit it's probably the result of comparing weights of dissimilar cars ( S v. T or E, sunroof v. no sunroof, AC v. none, modified cars, etc. inaccurate weighing methodolgy, etc). 100 pound, (approx. 44 kilos ) is a lot of weight, in fact, depending on the model & equipment, that's approx. 4-4.5 percent of the total car......where is it ??

JZG

In VW and 914 circles, Karmann does not have a great reputation for finished details. I think it was more of a case of a coachbuilder trying to 'build down' to a price demanded by a major manufacturer…

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Originally Posted by John Z Goriup

After crwaling around in, on, over, through & under many of both types of 911s ( Porsche / Reuter and Karmann ) including a complete bare-metal disassembly and nut & bolt restoration of my own Karmann bodied '70 911 T I have found one single tangible, physical detail that is visibly different between the two coachbuilders:

Porsche/Reuter made cars have a metal brace connecting two brackets, one welded to the underside of the cowl, about midway between the wiper arm mountings, the other on the trunk floor below it. Obviously the purpose of this brace is to stabilize & prevent vibration of the cowl sheet metal, since the entire wiper mechanism is suspended from it

Karmann bodies do not have this brace, or perhaps I should claim in my best legalese, I have never seen a Karrman body equipped with this brace.

Please see the photo I took of a known Porsche / Reuter bodyied specimen, at Parade in Portland in '06. I have indicated the brace with a green arrow. This is the clearest photo I have of that detail. (The reason I took this photo is because I really loved all the detail in Jeff Smith's trunk compartment and I wanted a record of it to emulate his work later on in my machine).

If anyone can show additional specific details that varied between the two other than invoking the old double-secret "certain other differences", please, have at it. I'd love to see them.

Also, I don't believe that there is is a repeatable, consistent 100 lb. difference between the two types of bodies. God only knows how myths like that get started and why these rumors are propagated, but it simply isn't credible to claim that one is that much heavier than the other without being able able to point out where the extra weight resides & is hidden. I submit it's probably the result of comparing weights of dissimilar cars ( S v. T or E, sunroof v. no sunroof, AC v. none, modified cars, etc. inaccurate weighing methodolgy, etc). 100 pound, (approx. 44 kilos ) is a lot of weight, in fact, depending on the model & equipment, that's approx. 4-4.5 percent of the total car......where is it ??

JZG

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I agree with John, I just don't see how there could be enough extra spot welds to make up 100lbs of weight, even if the whole car was seam welded it would not add that kind of weight. I can understand a slight difference due to cumulative effects, of variations in welding, rust and sound proofing. At most, that number would be 10-20lbs. I would think the Porsche engineers would be quite upset that the Karmann cars were that much heavier and slower.

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Originally Posted by KS Carrera

In VW and 914 circles, Karmann does not have a great reputation for finished details. I think it was more of a case of a coachbuilder trying to 'build down' to a price demanded by a major manufacturer…

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Originally Posted by sithot

Different Germans...;)
Tom

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Originally Posted by 72targa

I re-read this thread because of another question on the board. Tom, thanks for a great laugh. I needed one this AM.

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Without sounding phony, there is maybe a grain of truth in it, at least 45 years ago:

The south of then West-Germany was either the region of Baden-Würtenberg/Schwäbisch/Schwabenland with Stuttgart as its capital or Bayern/Bavaria with its capital of Munich.

Both regions, after WWll, have been the motor of economic development in West-Germany and also - by the longstanding knowledge of workmanship - coachbuilding/car firms like Mercedes, Porsche, BMW as well as NSU (which later was the technogical base for newer VW as well as the new production site for all Audi's) profited from the easy availability of skilled and welltrained workers to build their products.
There is no coincidence that - expect defunct Borgward and pre-WWll product VW - all major german car makers had their origins in the south and ALSO produced in the south of Germany.
Firms like Bosch, Bilstein, Fuchs and other car accessoires makers too had their origin in this regions or joined them.

The workmen-mentality as well as the base of their language (still today) is an unique "Allemannen-german/Schwäbisch", actually very similar to the german-speaking Switzerland region where (further south of Stuttgart and Munich) a similar workmentality culture exists.

The north of Germany, where Osnabrück/Karmann was located, had historically a totally different industry development which maybe also was felt when skilled coachbuilding workers had to be hired by a factory.

I'm shure this human factor was as important for car makers as to design - or later - selling a car.

I find this bit of information interesting, as I have heard of this dichotomy before. Only in the cases I was privy to (hearing directly from older generation Germans from the north) those in the northern regions had superior abilities to their brothers to the south. It only makes sense (to me) that those building cars in that industrialized part of the south would, on average, be the more skilled. Perhaps I am biased though... My '69 is a Reutter built car. :D

the tangible difference is the zinc coated metal used in parts of the post 1969 factory bodies. I have lived all my life in New England. I grew up with rust, I know rust. The partial zinc coated cars rust less, and not in such diabolical places, since the longitudinals received the zinc coating. (But not the outer rockers or door latch panels, sadly.)

I am restoring a 68 912 that was built at the Porsche factory. I purchased a stripped tub for some misc body parts. I can tell you that their was significant rust on both cars, but much less on the Porsche built body, which thankfully is the one I am restoring. One thing that was very different though was that the Karmann body had tons more spot welds on the various body parts vs. the one from Porsche was welded typically 1" or so apart. The difference was not minor. Maybe that day they were paid per spot weld. :D Some of the areas that were spot welded were so close together, that it was almost like a solid weld. The parts were either ground or cut off. There was no way to drill out that many spot welds. There would have been no metal left. I will try to remember to take some pics for reference.

with the different coach builders employed did there contract extend to them having to stamp there own panels or were they supplied by porsche for them to build?
As if each stamped there own panels and there metal suppliers were suppling from different sources there could be a different make up / density to the metal or ones suppliers 0.8mm differs from another.
although this would still not make up 100lb difference it can add up over all.
Cars today vary , some are made from grade 4 metal ( in japan they even store the metal ingots in the harbour until needed):eek:

early Russian lada's were bad rust traps as were 70/80's lancia's due to the poor metal quality and thickness

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Originally Posted by Scott Clarke

Brad-
The Reuter cars got galvanized floor pans in '70, whereas the Karman cars did not. I have heard claims that there are other differences, but no one has ever been explicit about the matter. As for "outsourcing," the use of coach builders used to be the norm. Porsche didn't buy Reuter until the early '70s, and had not produced bodies of their own to any great degree prior to that acquisition.

-Scott

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Porsche acquired the Reutter car body factory in 1963. The rest became ReCaro.

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Originally Posted by John Z Goriup

After crwaling around in, on, over, through & under many of both types of 911s ( Porsche / Reuter and Karmann ) including a complete bare-metal disassembly and nut & bolt restoration of my own Karmann bodied '70 911 T I have found one single tangible, physical detail that is visibly different between the two coachbuilders:

Porsche/Reuter made cars have a metal brace connecting two brackets, one welded to the underside of the cowl, about midway between the wiper arm mountings, the other on the trunk floor below it. Obviously the purpose of this brace is to stabilize & prevent vibration of the cowl sheet metal, since the entire wiper mechanism is suspended from it

Karmann bodies do not have this brace, or perhaps I should claim in my best legalese, I have never seen a Karrman body equipped with this brace.

Please see the photo I took of a known Porsche / Reuter bodyied specimen, at Parade in Portland in '06. I have indicated the brace with a green arrow. This is the clearest photo I have of that detail. (The reason I took this photo is because I really loved all the detail in Jeff Smith's trunk compartment and I wanted a record of it to emulate his work later on in my machine).

If anyone can show additional specific details that varied between the two other than invoking the old double-secret "certain other differences", please, have at it. I'd love to see them.

Also, I don't believe that there is is a repeatable, consistent 100 lb. difference between the two types of bodies. God only knows how myths like that get started and why these rumors are propagated, but it simply isn't credible to claim that one is that much heavier than the other without being able able to point out where the extra weight resides & is hidden. I submit it's probably the result of comparing weights of dissimilar cars ( S v. T or E, sunroof v. no sunroof, AC v. none, modified cars, etc. inaccurate weighing methodolgy, etc). 100 pound, (approx. 44 kilos ) is a lot of weight, in fact, depending on the model & equipment, that's approx. 4-4.5 percent of the total car......where is it ??

JZG

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Uhh, my Karmann- built 1971T shell has that brace installed.

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Originally Posted by 304065

Uhh, my Karmann- built 1971T shell has that brace installed.

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ummm my 72 T karmann built also has that ? although i had removed it prior to this photo