German market 1970S predated 73RS concept ?

Recently I read an unique german Porsche test report - published in april 1970 - portraying the 2.2litre models.

They quote that "the 1970 911S was german delivered in standard version as a
-sport-911S including Recaro buckets, pull straps on door panels, lightweight bumpers, 110l tank w center fill, no rear scripts, spacesaver spare etc.
It also could be ordered with a special "comfort" equippement “similar to the 911E” including radio etc.
The test also states the 911S was planned as a competition car while 911T and 911E would be for a larger export client base".
-
While Piech could not push the 1968 911R behond a race car homologation as he wished for, the 1970 911S would be based on a new idea :
*911S "comfort-E"
*911S "sport-S"
*911S "GT4 / S/T"
This would predate the 1973RS concept with touring, light and homologation cars since it was already thought out in late 1969.
Shure the 73RS was another car with larger 2.7l engine, ducktail and larger rear wheels but almost everything else was around for sale on a standard 1970 911S, three years before.
-
Comments on this board refer this white 911 always as a base for S/T models but maybe it was not but rather a german 1970 911S in its standard -sport-version for sale at 28'749 Deutschmark !
http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/3749/dsc02324.jpg

Interior shot, most likely from a late MY69 prototype model.
No glovebox and no radio.
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/1516/dsc02325g.jpg

Most likely red 911S which interior we see above, MY69.
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/563/dsc02326.jpg

Karim:

Interesting article!

The lightweight version of the 70S was catalogued for the German domestic market only and was the basis for the FIA homologation weight of 978 KG.

There is a paragraph in Ludvigsen's Excellence Was Expected which describes the background of the factory's decision to build the car and its lightweight specifications. As you rightly point out, the simplified door panels of the RS were just another bit out of the existing parts bin left over from the German market base S.

In order to order the 70S to this specification, one would have checked the box for Option Code M470 delete, which left off most of the standard road going equipment.

Other details carried over to the RS L include the deletion of the glove box door and passenger sun visor. However, unlike the RS L, the standard clock remained.
These cars had front and rear bumpers in ALU in addition to the ALU engine lid and license panel.

That is the first interior photo of the lightweight S that I have seen. Thanks for posting. Are there any other pics in the article?

Tom

Quote:

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Originally Posted by varunan123

Karim

The other interesting feature on the exterior shot is the chrome end caps on the rear bumper-which i have not seen any real car-other than the similar brochure with the 3 white cars.

Raj

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Like you, I have only seen that feature, i.e. the capped off inside end of the rear bumpers on the above brochure ( I have the italian version ), and then rememberered seeing one other car with the alum. bumper caps.....the tangerine # 3 prototype shown in the attached photo. Mind you, that car predates the production R run and certainly the 2.2. litre '70 series cars shown in the brochure.

I am also wondering how the central license plate panel is fastened to the car, since the bumper brackets normally used to hold panel & bumper guards have been filled in and smoothed over.

Sure would like to see how that arrangement works.

JZG

Those door openers are definitely from a VW. Great idea !

I believe the car pictured by the OP is a preproduction '70 911S(T) - much like the pre-production '73 911 (R)S 2.7. I've had the German edition of this 10/69 brochure for many years (Das Porsche 911 Konzept). The accountants most like did not sign off on the 911 S(T) concept any more than they signed off on the '73 911S 2.7. Too bad, would have been a cool production series car!

.... Recently I read an unique german Porsche test report - published in april 1970 - portraying the 2.2litre models. ....

Karim,
Are you able to scan this for us ?
My German isn't the best but the pics should be great !! :D

Cheers,
Dennis. :)

Thanks guys, great infos.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by a911s

I've had the German edition of this 10/69 brochure.

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Yes. The 1971 brochure version is similar but the group shot of 3 white cars and interior is gone and replaced by standard cars.
So far I found only one interior shot, pictured above.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by a911s

The accountants most like did not sign off on the 911 S(T) concept any more than they signed off on the '73 911S 2.7. Too bad, would have been a cool production series car!

---

Being published in april 1970 I beleive the car WAS definitly on the market and not just a pre-production run.
It might was not ordered often.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flunder

In order to order the 70S to this specification, one would have checked the box for Option Code M470 delete, which left off most of the standard road going equipment.
Tom

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Tom, what is interesting is that the german test clearly states Option M470 was a "Sonderausstattung"
(i.e. special equipment) for a German 911S, to be ordered in addition/optional.
Therefore its not "Option Code M470 delete" but it was special order.

The German market 1970S was for sale in standard version as a stripped down "sport" street version.
As stated above, this idea was abandoned in 1971, most likely due to the economic recession in Germany
but renewed for the 1973 RS Carerra as a limited edition model.
-

This car might be red. Features different Fuchs wheel treatment than above pictured Tangerine/blutorange car.
Published in Ludvigsen's book too.
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/9783/dsc02331.jpg

Way back I tried to find info about this lwt S. If remember correctly Josh Sadler had also done some research. He had seen one in person and believed that just 6 or 7 was actually ordered that way.

A real cool car!

this looks like the same car Karim has posted and the photo taken at the same time

i have always had it recorded as a 1970 factory lightweight S, the possible homologation base for the SR's

are they "dunlop racing" tires some of these cars are wearing?? further evidence of a competition intent???

see in pic I posted and the first outside pic posted

Like the 68T/R is to Tilton, so is this 70LW to me. I've been in absolute LOVE :cool: with this car since I first read of it.

Thought I'd repost this pic of the alum front bumper that is probably on this car:

Here is test - april 1970
text:
"The 911S costs 28749 Mark. Nacked, notice. As for options on the
test car with radio, electr. windows and other expensive details other parts of the population can buy a whole VW Beetle."
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/6476/dsc02333.jpg


"..in its standard version the hot prepared 911S can receive a special option
- as tested by us - with the chassis similar of a 911E.
Instead of stripped down and lightweigth chassis with 110l tank and center fill-in our test car had comfortable velours, complete instruments and chrome trim.
The tank holds 62litre."
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5466/dsc02332o.jpg


Here is the german 70 pricelist stating DM 28749 for standard version of 911S.
All S options had to be payed extra.
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/637/dsc02337.jpg http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/935/dsc02336.jpg


Finally, the german 911S test car, loaded with M470 options (similar to a E as they state) in the test. Unfortunately, they do not show the standard (lightweigth) version in a photo.
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/5686/dsc02335.jpg

I have a German Market 1970 911S. From what I can tell it was essentially the same as the US version- aluminum rear grill and center panel, and front oil cooler. No other aluminum parts, and fully optioned with driving lights, fog ligts, rear wiper, standard S interior, sport seats etc. I am not the best source though as my car was pretty heavily modified by the time I got it. Much of the above info is from the certificate of Authenticity.

I assume that you could order most anything that you wanted, but the German S wasn't that different from the US version and perhaps there were some predated 73RS concept versions, but that would have been unusual.

Chuck, I assume in 1970 you could by a german market 911S in three versions:

1) 911S homologation "sports purpose", lw, GT4, (base for S/T ?)
2) 911S standard version, street legal lw, 180hp, Recaro buckets, 110l tank etc. Price: 28749 DM.
3) 911S w options i.e M470 included, chrome trim, 180hp, regular seats, 62litre tank, radio etc. Price: 28749DM plus options.

Most customers would opt for version 3 and all export US/RoW 911S would have been produced in version 3.

However,
Raj is correct that we yet have to find pictural proof they actually built version 2.
At least the 1970 price list and test info from april 1970 states indeed it was available on the german market.

Hello Karim:

I think that category 1 and 2 as set out in your post were the same spec.

Tom

So, the 1970 German market 1970 911S would be the first 911"ST"- acknowledging the fact that "911ST" was probably not an official designation, more like factory shorthand. This would be the "narrow body" raced before the more famous flares developed in 1971/1972 and after the short wheelbase 911R, 911TR, 911L in Trans-Am, etc.

Is this correct?:)

Hello Flieger:

I think the type 911S lightweight would have been the perfect car for Group 3 racing.

However, in 1970 and 1971, for the FIA's Special GT Group 4 category, the MY 70 German market base 911S should be considered as perhaps no more than a good beginning point to use "all special parts for the car type 911S to be reconstructed to a competition car."

But, as the reconstruction with all those special parts was a very extensive process, almost any 911 was a suitable basis for the conversion, as demonstrated by the Kremer brothers who used T chassis for their very successful 2,3 and 2,5 cars in 1970-72.

Perhaps we should think of the MY70 lightweight 911S as being analogous to the 2,7 RS H. It was the basis for the race department to get the FIA to allow a minimum weight for the homologation of type.

Tom

So, the German market 911S was the homologation weight for the 911S for GT racing across Europe. Would someone be kind enough to post the homologation weights for the 911T and 911S for 1970/1971? If I recall correctly, the 911T was homologated lighter. If Porsche went this far in weight reduction on the 911S, why not go below the 911T?

I suppose what you are telling me is that the superior "S" equipment such as sway bars, wheels/tires, Aluminum engine lid, nitrided connecting rods (?), balanced crankshaft, etc. is what made the 911S heavier than the 911T when in equally sparce interior trim. These "S" pieces would be replaced on either car by even better "competition" spec parts. Therefore, homologating a 911T lighter just allowed more weight reduction elsewhere (by removing interior entirely) for competition to compensate for the upgraded running gear. Hence, 911"S/T"

The lightweight thin steel tubs produced in 1969 would be for model year 1970? Were the chassis numbers known? Did these stay with factory race department? Were they 911Ts or 911S?

Thanks to you (all) for taking time to answer my questions; I am young but interested in learning more details about these amazing cars. I would certainly be interested in any books you knowledgeable individuals chose to write- the RSR thread, 911ST thread, and this thread would be great subjects.

:)

Raj:

I believe that the 62L tanks used in the homologation 911S are the same as the one posted by Gilbert911. However, that 62L race tank is the only example I have ever seen!

I suppose that for sprint races, as opposed to endurance events or rallying where long range becomes an issue, the 62L would be a superior spec given that it does provide a lower center of gravity, as you rightly point out. It may offer the advantage of less fuel sloshing from side to side as well.

The weight stated for the LW road 911 S is 930 kg on the back of the white 2.2 brochure.

HTH
Dennis. :)

Thanks; was 911T still lighter in 1970, as it was in earlier years?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 911T1971

Beeing published in april 1970 I beleive the car was definitly on the market and not just a pre-production run ?

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As noted, the '70 lightweight was available through the racing department but was not a typical production series run 911 - that's why the brochure photo was replaced.

This Service Bulletin seemed relevant to this thread. Didn't see it referenced earlier...

Attachment 235923

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John Z Goriup

Like you, I have only seen that feature, i.e. the capped off inside end of the rear bumpers on the above brochure

I am also wondering how the central license plate panel is fastened to the car, since the bumper brackets normally used to hold panel & bumper guards have been filled in and smoothed over.

Sure would like to see how that arrangement works.

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Remember that it was not unheard of for the marketing dept to airbrush little details on their photos. It looks to me in the 70 brochure showing the White base S that the bumper ends have been lightly airbrushed and the top mounting flange of the missing bumperettes is either hidden under the overhang of the decklid or has been "simplified" by use of the magic airbrush.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gulf908

.... [I] Are you able to scan this for us ?

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Here is (finally) a scan of the document which all started this.
Its printed April 6 1970., german mag DAZ.

The important information is written on page 23.
It states the 1970 S german market in standard version "Grundversion" comes in lightweight/110l tank, essentially in competition spec. One could also order the 1970S in special order "Sonderausstattung" with E-Equipement, S standard dials and 62lt tank. In "Grundausstattung", the 1970S was DM28749. The DAZ test shows the 1970S w E equipement.

The German 1970S in competition/standard specs was available throughout 1970 as DAZ test was in April 1970, right at the end of 1970 MY's.

http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...sab2e2de4.jpeg
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...s72dd327c.jpeg
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...s81e4f890.jpeg
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...sd220b54f.jpeg
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...sdbb1477c.jpeg
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...s2b57f868.jpeg

Excellent, Karim . . .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by csbush

I have a German Market 1970 911S. From what I can tell it was essentially the same as the US version- aluminum rear grill and center panel, and front oil cooler. No other aluminum parts, and fully optioned with driving lights, fog ligts, rear wiper, standard S interior, sport seats etc. I am not the best source though as my car was pretty heavily modified by the time I got it. Much of the above info is from the certificate of Authenticity.

I assume that you could order most anything that you wanted, but the German S wasn't that different from the US version and perhaps there were some predated 73RS concept versions, but that would have been unusual.

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Chuck,
Can you share some photos of your car or maybe the CoA? Wondering about any details that make this model unique (door handles/door cards, etc)
Any idea how many of these were made?
It seems like an awful lot of marketing and PR effort if they only made a few of them.

To me this is one of the more interesting sub plots in the early S cars... basically a 1 year only, special offering for a single market.

It was not a single market, but instead all markets other than the U.S. (reference the bulletin in post #33) that the "standard" S was available. However most were ordered with the "comfort equipment" or what we would consider a "normal" 70 S. Sure would like to find an original "standard" car. =)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cornpanzer

It was not a single market, but instead all markets other than the U.S. (reference the bulletin in post #33) that the "standard" S was available.

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Do we have a proof ? The service bulletin is written in english concerning the US market. But this does not mean that it was available everywhere.
For exemple, the 911S in standard version was not available in Switzerland. The swiss pricelist does not indicate this model and the 911S was sold standard in "Comfort version". Here is 1970 pricelist Switzerland. (M is optional for "Mehrausstattung", S is "Serie" for standard)
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...s98135bf6.jpeg
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...s13e89143.jpeg

Here is another proof that German market 911S was standard in lightwheight spec.
If you wanted a German 1970 911S as sold in US or elsewhere, it was on special order.
There is not even an offer how to order a 1970 911S as "we all know", it was simply written "a 911S with E equipment".

This is below so far the only sales literature document documenting the German 911S standard in a very detailed written document.
Giving the importance of the German market, I doubt it was sold elsewhere as in Germany:
-100l tank with front hood inlet
-6x15 front, 7x15 rear
-interior/door in lightwheight
-engine lid/front bumpers in alu
-different dials
etc.

This the 1970 Sales (dealer version) program for German market.
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...s122f3f3f.jpeg
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...s677d04ca.jpeg
Note the * at S*:
It indicates if you want a special order "Sonderausstattung" 911S, it came with E equipment (written in lower left of page).

Wow! Thanks Karim. I stand corrected that it was just an assumption that it was only not offered in the U.S. Thanks for pointing that out.

Cornpanzer, dont know yet.
In Germany it was available for shure, US and Switzerland we know it was not.
BUT I do believe it was available RoW trough the factory race department, as you and others stated.

Now we just need to find one, right? =)

In fact, a second German market 1970 item specify that the 911S has a 110l tank.
It indicates no further infos but has the well known white car as well as the interior as discussed, see below

1970 German market.
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...ps18d93e8b.jpg
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...ps775ffdfa.jpg
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...ps161baf36.jpg

Here is a factory issued postcard, printed in 3/70.
The pic (and car) has been published before, its MY 69, see its doors.
On the rear It says "Porsche 911S, fasted car on the german market"

I agree with Cornpanzer there is yet to find one...I assume they got ordered for German GT class racing only...

http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...ps83618197.jpg
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...psc438be31.jpg

Well…once you know where to look it just pops up.

This is a french market sales literature (including dealer stamps), and yes, the 1970 911S "version standard" is there.
If you ordered a fully equipped 911S Coupe or Targa, it was then called "+ Equipement M".
(Looks like the standard 911S was therefore available only in Coupe form.)

I know this 1970 literature exists also in Italian, German and english (for UK/AUS ?) language, so at least now we do know it was (partly) a RoW market car.

Note that four models available: 911T, 911E, 911S standard, 911S +M:
1970 911S "version standard" / "Grundausstattung" vs. "+ Equipement M" / special order "Sonderausstattung mit E-Ausstattung":
-930kg vs. 1020kg.
-7.2 vs. 7.5 sec
-100l tank vs. 62lt.
-Dunlop Racing / 5.00 M 15 R 7

http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...s9f11689c.jpeg
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...s26c4f60d.jpeg
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...s676e8b47.jpeghttp://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...s676e8b47.jpeg
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...s503d3f87.jpeg

1971 German market brochure.

"The standard ("Grundausstattung") 911S is now -contrary to the last modelyear- similar to the 911E.
The most important differences in interiors are sportseats that are included with the 911S"

http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6e65b5f2.jpg
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...ps22ff705a.jpg

Hi Raj:

One of our fellow board members based in Germany has just such a "standard" 70S originally sold in Europe and there are a couple of others known.

Many narrow body lightweights were ordered by dealers/teams and converted to widebody Group 4 race cars in peiod.

Exampes of later long hood 911S cars ordered to lightweight specs have been turning up as well.

Raj, I dont know. I see your point. But this was not the motivation for this thread.

At least one was built :D
Given the rise in values, maybe one day some shell pops up to prove the point.

I also recall Porsche was very involved in German GT racing scene and when Opel Commodores, Ford Capri by May and BMW CSL drove around 911's..the factory had an (image) problem. I know the story of extended rear seats to have the 911S as a four-seater GT homologated, what the BMW, Ford and Opel have been. (below, see the 1971 pic)

http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...psfdfa8237.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flunder

. . . One of our fellow board members based in Germany has just such a "standard" 70S origonally sold . . .

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My car is a '70 'S,' originally delivered in Germany. Its Kardex shows --- as the very first option = 470 . . . 'comfort group.' See post #493 . . .
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...ty-nine/page50


I've also wondered about this car's 'Typ' . . . = 911534

I've seen Porsche break-down their engines by 'type' . . . but not their cars, so much

Which begs the question . . .


Could a 'base' Euro 911 'S' --- or any 'competition-equipped' vehicle . . . have a distinct Typ?

Type designators might even indicate a particular market or country?


Love to see/hear about any Kardex from '. . . One of our fellow board members based in Germany . . .'

Quote:

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Originally Posted by varunan123

Tom

That is great thanks for sharing, it would make sense to order and convert for a race team but was any car ever sold as street legal ? would it pass DOT equivalents TUV etc....Tom how were these cars confirmed with kardex? or were they in original condition.......?

raj

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I have seen the kardex on a couple of these but they do not shed any light on the original specification and chassis numbers are within the range of published series with all the other S cars.

However, an inspection of the tub will provide the evidence of lightweight specification. These cars were definitely street legal in Germany and perhaps some other European countries. They were made in small numbers but no actual production details are available from what I have heard. The factory is now pretty much completely uninformed when it comes to these rare birds.

Rick
as Raj says that it the internal ORDER NUMBER for the type of car (in the 1970 MY and on to at least 73 way of ordering at Porsche)
the 911 is obvious
the next number is the body number as below
the following one is the engine type number
and the last one the gearbox type number

body	engine	Gearbox
1 T Coupe	1 T	1 4 Speed
2 T Targa	2 E	4 5 Speed
3 E Coupe	3 S	5 Sportomatic
4 E Targa	4 Carrera
5 S coupe	5 Turbo
6 S Targa
7 Carrera Coupe
8 Carrera Targa

so 911 5 3 4 is a 911 S coupe with a S engine and the 5 speed gearbox

Excellent!

Thanks for that, Hugh . . .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by varunan123

isn't it in fact a cat and mouse game with the FIA.After not being allowed in the touring car race by not allowing the 911 to be qualified as a sedan.Thus some exercise by the factory during this period late 60s to early 70s from four door sedan and then homologating the 911 without the interior as the base car and interior as an option then the whole fiasco with recaro sports seats and rear bolster...........all well documented to keep the 911 competitive in as many racing series as possible.The question is other than as a homologation exercise and to make FIA happy like the 917's that were not all built,it is entirely possible no such car ever left the factory with such a spec since none was ever ordered or allowed to be ordered as such.
All of this very well documented in ludvigsens book if I remember correctly.

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Luvigsens writes, that the FIA did not accept the factory's attempt to have its 1970 911S homologated (1000 cars need to be built) for GT Group 2 racing, as the 911T was in 67/68.
In 1971, the factory tryed again with its 911S (now with extended rear seat bolsters to have it as a four-seater sedan) but it didnt't pass FIA rules either. The program was then abandoned.

Instead, the factory prepared the 911S to be homologated for GT 4 Group racing. (Ludvigsen writes 1971 but the description of this lightwheight 911S matches exactly the 1970S base/standard version).
So, how many got/needed to be built for homologation GT4 1970 ?

Karim
for "Special GT" ie Group 4 you needed 500 cars for homologation

thx Hugh. so they got accepted ? They built 500, (thats seems a lot) ?
I'm no specialist.

I got the 7 Id of 1970 S/R's:

"Fahrzeugtyp 911 S/R 2.3 "Rallye" (1970)
Ausgangsmodell 911 S 2.2 (2.195 ccm, 180 PS)
Abfolge der Fahrzeug-Identifikationsnummern (FINs) 911 030 0001; 911 030 0002; 911 030 0003; 911 030 0102; 911 030 0949; 911 030 0950; 911 030 1127"
source:http://www.1-vision-weiss.de/lesepro...ht-den-anfang/

Fröhlich's 911S at 31.5.1970, Le Mans
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...psc1c68763.jpg

the 1970 S was homologated to Group 3 (GT) (1000 units) in March 1970. Group 4 (special GT) would have been before that.
The real question is WHAT was homologated - ie what were the specs for Group 3 and Group 4
the Gp 3 homologation papers are FIA No 3025 and the car is homologated at 960kg with what looks like fuel oil and spare tyre included
i am not sure but i think that would line up with the 930kg quoted for the "standard 911S " in the french Brochure, the other cars are all 1020kg

On top of that the honlogation papers specify a whole lot of special parts for Gp4 (ie the ST's) lightmetal things, plastic things, wheel arch extentions, plastic 85 and 110 litre fuel tanks plexiglass windows - etc
so it looks like they had the 1000 accepted for Gp3 and then this "stripper car" formed the basis of the ST weight as well


....... so MOST of the 1744 1970 S's would have been counted to get group 3 recognition..... that means that it is not clear how many actual "standard" cars were built if any 911S semes to be able to be counted???

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flieger

So, the German market 911S was the homologation weight for the 911S for GT racing across Europe. Would someone be kind enough to post the homologation weights for the 911T and 911S for 1970/1971? If I recall correctly, the 911T was homologated lighter. If Porsche went this far in weight reduction on the 911S, why not go below the 911T?

I suppose what you are telling me is that the superior "S" equipment such as sway bars, wheels/tires, Aluminum engine lid, nitrided connecting rods (?), balanced crankshaft, etc. is what made the 911S heavier than the 911T when in equally sparce interior trim. These "S" pieces would be replaced on either car by even better "competition" spec parts. Therefore, homologating a 911T lighter just allowed more weight reduction elsewhere (by removing interior entirely) for competition to compensate for the upgraded running gear. Hence, 911"S/T"

The lightweight thin steel tubs produced in 1969 would be for model year 1970? Were the chassis numbers known? Did these stay with factory race department? Were they 911Ts or 911S?

Thanks to you (all) for taking time to answer my questions; I am young but interested in learning more details about these amazing cars. I would certainly be interested in any books you knowledgeable individuals chose to write- the RSR thread, 911ST thread, and this thread would be great subjects.

:)

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Attachment 282930

This thread pops up now and then when I search for stuff, and this car always intrigues me. At first I thought it looked really nice and friendly in light blue with its yellow nose. And the location of Brucke Breidscheid on the Nordschleife looked too familiar as I've got a few footsteps there. And tiremarks. Started looking for a high res. Car 104 in GT's during the 1969 1000km rennen was Hans-Dieter Weigel. Now that name sounded familiar too, but previously I just associated him with 907s and 908s and 917s.

Then I found this about the car: http://www.racingsportscars.com/chas...Weigel%23.html
Seems started at 1000km of Monza, the Targa Florio and 1000km Nurburgring all within six weeks? Interesting :) Listed a #84 at Targa....

A bit later I found these. Obviously not mine, found them on www.targapedia.com

Attachment 282931

Attachment 282932

Hmm, so much for that cute yellow nose. Scratch that, make it works Gulf livery. Me stupid! Looking back at the previously posted Nurburgring photo you can actually see the black roundels of the Targa numbers under the 104 square numbers.

Has the car ever surfaced after '69? The car is listed in every log I could find as a 911T. Must be a pretty trick T ;) The oldest photo I've found is May 1969, but she's listed as also running Monza in April 1969. And what's she doing in the 1970S Leichtbau thread. Does she deserve a thread of her own? Has some DNF's but a very interesting and pretty intensive season!

I came across this intriguing article on Pistonheads from 2012 on the discovery of one of these lightweight Sport S cars by Josh Sadler of Autofarm. Being right hand drive we can safely say they were made for the UK market. Too bad there are no photos of the interior. It will be great to see the car once it's restored.

Here's the article and pictures for future reference as well as the link to the whole article.

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/defa...ryId=26193.htm

A Barn Find to Die For

It's not the highly polished, hermetically sealed machines that has sees Josh really animated though. Instead, what to the untrained eye looks like nothing more than an old, in need of restoration 911 is Josh's next project. It's a car he sold in the 80s, knowing then that it was a bit special, but not having taken the time to research it properly. Curiosity got the better of Josh a few years ago and he sought out the sales document and found the seller and the car was found languishing at the bottom of the garden under a tarpaulin.

Still unsure exactly what it was, Josh "took a punt," getting it out requiring the removal of a fence. It was worth the effort. The pared back trim, the lightweight door panels, lightweight carpets and tacho that reads up to 10,000rpm, along with some further research revealed it to be a 911 S Sport, sometimes referred to as an ST.

Josh's find is a car with provenance, too, having driven in the 1971 Circuit of Ireland, it is thought to be the only ST officially brought into the country. It arrived via a Northern Irish dealer and was driven by Reggie McSpadden. Some digging found its registration to be dormant, and the car was driven over to Northern Ireland to be inspected, where it was given it original registration back. It's been stripped since and awaits restoration, though with other projects are keeping him busy enough.

A garden find 911, now nestling in a barn owned by a man who farms Porsches? You couldn't make it up. And that RSR recreation? We'll take that one next time...

thx for sharing.
They are out there, though.

we bought last year a 1970 911s that was modified into a plastic -bondo slant nose ,we bought it base on photos ,genuine 911s with recaros
after taking the car apart we found all the features of the 911s lightweight,no ashtray,no heater tubes,no conduits for trunk and engine lid,plates
for rollbar mounting,no undercoating,gas heater etc etc we also measure roof skin and it is thinner than all other 911 we have,one door had been replaced
but the drivers door is original and it has all the mounting for lightweight pull strap and handles
on the Kardex it do not state 470 and this only information so far
we would like to share photos ,infos with similar car,original color is silver and the car is in Canada since early eighties

Very interesting. Please post more information and photos when you can.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rivard

we would like to share photos ,infos with similar car

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pm sent, thx

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Better late than never
here are a few shots of cool features or missing oneson the car

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rivard

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Better late than never. Here are a few shots of cool features or missing on eson the car

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Your pics didn't attach correctly or are otherwise corrupted. Could you please re-post them so we can see the car? thx!

i got the sales brochure in 1973 when i bought a 1970 911e in Montréal,the seller still had it in the car,i did not pay attention to it until last year
when we bought the 911s 1970 lightweight,it took some time to have an official confirmation .I owned and restored quite a few special 911 racer;
ex Bienvenue 1968 911s,and 1972 911s ,ex Heimrath 2.5 s etc but this homologation 911s is the rarest of all according to experts between 6 and 8 made
.Factory confirmed 41 lightweight ,some converted wide body for road race,some for rallye and the rest as street version to prove FIA that they really
built and sold cars to the 930 kg specs, i have seen photos of white,red,tangerine,our is silver and it is probably the only one of that color
the car had some rust(no Under coating) but i have seen a lot worse .It is amazing how a car like that had been under radar for all those years,
hidden under an ugly slant nose body kit and even uglier interior.Car had been in Canada,with the same owner for 25 years.
we are still missing the period when it left Factory until shipped to Canada.No mention anywhere of first Handler,some experts said that on car
of this type they might have keep it as spare for works car,executives,driver ,factory friends and sell it as used car for fiscal depreciation
if somebody has a way in Germany to trace former owner with vin,let me know
we will start posting detailed photos of restoration work

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 911T1971

Well…once you know where to look it just pops up.

This is a french market sales literature (including dealer stamps), and yes, the 1970 911S "version standard" is there.
If you ordered a fully equipped 911S Coupe or Targa, it was then called "+ Equipement M".
(Looks like the standard 911S was therefore available only in Coupe form.)

I know this 1970 literature exists also in Italian, German and english (for UK/AUS ?) language, so at least now we do know it was (partly) a RoW market car.

Note that four models available: 911T, 911E, 911S standard, 911S +M:
1970 911S "version standard" / "Grundausstattung" vs. "+ Equipement M" / special order "Sonderausstattung mit E-Ausstattung":
-930kg vs. 1020kg.
-7.2 vs. 7.5 sec
-100l tank vs. 62lt.
-Dunlop Racing / 5.00 M 15 R 7

http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...s9f11689c.jpeg
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...s26c4f60d.jpeg
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...s676e8b47.jpeghttp://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...s676e8b47.jpeg
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/...s503d3f87.jpeg

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Same as Karim this one in german language

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We should add Olivier Rivard's thread here on the discovery and restoration of his 70S lightweight.

http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...0-s-9110301383

Saw this Instagram post and thought of this thread. These look like period photos (summer 1970 is caption). I wonder if this could be an example of this thread's subject.
It is unusual to see street legal cars without bumper trim like this, and if it was a Sports Purpose car, it would not have had the overrides.
I'll give that the car seems very optioned out (two sets of lights) which would seem to counteract a lightweight ethos.
https://www.instagram.com/cabigliogarage/

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If Sam Cabiglio identified it as a "sports purpose" car ie a 1970 homologation / lightweight S back in period i would say it is 99% certain that it is.
The homologation cars were used as the basis of the competition cars but other "hard core" owners also used them for fast road cars - this one looks as it it is set up for that so the extra lights, in my view are not inconsistent with the lightweight concept, and for club sporting events