In your opinion what are the Pros and Cons of buying a Euro spec Early 911 in the USA?
I was wondering if I am missing something as I have not seen too many Euro models in the USA
Perhaps the cost?
Thanks for your thoughts!
Michael
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In your opinion what are the Pros and Cons of buying a Euro spec Early 911 in the USA?
I was wondering if I am missing something as I have not seen too many Euro models in the USA
Perhaps the cost?
Thanks for your thoughts!
Michael
I can only speak from experience bringing one in. You would have a hard time telling it was a Euro model. I know a lot were imported in the 80s, because the exchange rate was good, and you could get a "good deal" despite the import costs. The problem with my car, and all of the early 911s I knew of when I was living in Germany was that rust was destroying them. Most were just scrapped as it wasn't economically practical to fix them. That is my guess as to why a lot of US early cars are going back to Germany now!
Pro: ROW gets all the cool stuff (like a 74 mfi Carrera)
Con: Rust and corrosion on a level most in this country (USA) have never seen.
That's a myth...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr9146
Nope. Truth fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barwaut
Example #1 - EVERY euro car I've ever worked on has had more corrosion than its US delivery counterpart.
Example #2 - A 1972 US delivery T spends its entire life in the US. It's owner takes it to Switzerland for 2 years and uses it as a daily driver. When the car comes back two years later the entire bottom of the car has a layer of white corrosion crust and all the nuts/bolts are rusted ... in two years ... on a car that was rust-free before it left.
Sorry folks ... your climate eats cars. That's why you should stop bringing our nice, clean US cars over there...it's like lambs to the slaughter. :(
Well, you just need to exercise some caution and not to drive in harsh winter climates after the resotration ... cars from Southern Europe (e.g. Sicily) has nothing to envy to their Californian conterparts ...
Granted, but I was not talking about restored cars, I was referencing unrestored cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biancaneve
Pound for pound a Euro car will have more rust and corrosion than a comparable US car, there's just no gettin' around it. Sorry.
But that's the trade off, I suppose, for you folks getting the uprated equipment over what we can get here. Remember, the RS was never officially imported to the US for sale ... neither were the early 80s Turbos, 959s, GT3 MK1, etc. To me, I'd call that a fair trade.
I agree w/ Marco. America seems to be much more agreeable to 911s --- and German cars, in general. Between the climate --- and more-intensive annual 'safety' inspections . . . any un-galvanized Porsche would have a very hard time surviving in Europe. Not a lotta 'barn finds' there, eitherQuote:
Originally Posted by mmeldrum21
That'd be my guess . . . and the hassleQuote:
Originally Posted by mmeldrum21
I have a Euro car --- brought over to the US ~1982. Back then, just the shipping woulda prolly equaled the cost of the car! I have NO IDEA why someone would bother . . . especially back then . . .
. . . but it's prolly what saved the car
Here are some PPI shots from 5 years ago
Myth?
This is a picture of a 13 year old ungalvanized 911 undergoing rust repair in Germany in 1983. And it was one of the better ones. Was definately not worth saving from an economic standpoint.
Importing it to the US was the cheap and easy part.
I guess you have never seen cars from the Minnesota area or Northern New England. The salt they use is full strength premium. I have had three rust free S cars from Europe that were pretty dry including the one I have now from northern Italy. Maybe they were selectively driven. But Europe does not beat the northern tier US states IMHO. It is a dead on tie. Cars from south Italy, France and Spain should be like western US. The worst Porsche I have ever seen was from the Twin Cities, MN. Man they like their salt. And in parts of NE all the trees next to the roads are dead or on the way due to road salt. I grew up in Franconia, NH.
Pros:
Oil reads in Druck ;)
Cool turnsignal lenses (Italy)
Hella 118s
Europe consists of countries with very different climates, from dry and warm regions in Italy, Spain and France to cold, wet and humid regions up north, Sweden, Finland, most of Germany and UK etc.
Many of the cars up here in northern Europe suffered from severe rust issues already after 5 years, the first owner of one of my 912´s told me stories of how her left foot almost slipped through a hole in the floor by the pedal area in 1971 when the car was just 5 years old.. Back then, many of the cars were driven all year around hence suffered from the cold and wet climate.
BUT there are examples of very nice, unrestored rust free cars up here aswell, not too many though :D
I chased a lot of old Mercedes before buying this Porsche, and I particularly loved the Mercedes euro versions. Oddly, they seemed to rust faster than the US versions as well.
Here's an interesting fact.......when a US carmaker wants to investigate rust on cars, they go to.........the coast of Florida!Quote:
Originally Posted by steve shea
The higher year round temperatures combined with the salt air accelerates corrosion much more than in colder climes....like Minnesota or northern New England. Ask a chemist. As an automotive engineer, I've been on such fact finding 'field trips' researching the corrosion resistance of critical fuel system components.
My word, lots and lots of great information!
I'm looking at a European 911 purchase so I will be even more vigilant of any rust issues.
Once again the Early 911S Registry proves itself to be a best online source of expertise for Early 911 Cars.
Thanks
One of the things to be aware of is that the Euro car being sold here will almost always have a US speedo in MPH. Every seller always quotes the car's mileage as whatever shows on that US speedo/odo...never mind the fact the car had God knows how many kilometers on it before the original speedo was swapped. Without a comprehensive history on the car you really have no choice to treat it as "true mileage unknown".
Good shout 767Driver!
Fortyantly, The car I'm looking at has not been converted from KPH to MPH.
A good point about the milage though. It had to be converted to be imported- easy thing to do was to buy a new MPH speedometer. You never know at what point the original KPH speedometer was put back in the car. I had my KPH converted to MPH because the new MPH speedometer was not an exact match. When I had it converted, the milage was reset to zero.
You just can't ever tell...
The euro gauges remained in my car. Brought in mid eighties. They are one of things I like about ROW plus the less fussy dash with simple knobs and no cartoons for washer and light etc. One the most fun things is the look on passenger's faces as they soil their knickers when they see the speedo well over 100 most of the time! KMH is good entertainment plus it keeps your math skills sharp!
Jeez . . . a lotta talk about the cons
How 'bout some pros?
Like their headlights --- H1s . . . much-more-attractive (IMO). Lotta US-cars --- that originally came w/ 'sugar-scoops' . . . 've been switched-over to a natty set 'o 'flies.' Anybody price-compared the two types of lighting, lately? (That tells me something)
And then there's the Euro-style amber + red tail lights w/ more-interesting-looking/two-tone front turn signals? (Ditto)
And I like the metric instrumentation --- totally flummoxes the passengers. '(Drück? Wuzzat?')
But the biggest pro? . . .
. . . genuine Euro cars are rare --- prolly because of their cons
Yes Rick, euro cars are cool. No front bumperettes from the factory on mine. Really clean. Also the cool little aux light in the headlight. My car has Fiamm snail horns, loud and euroish. It also carries the big Italian license plate in the rear and the small in the front. Also I love the fact that the first owner chose it over a Dino. He called the Dino a slug. And that the car was driven with joie de vive all over Italy and Switzerland at a rapid velocity on ski trips. He told of watching the sun rise on the Adriatic side then driving across Italy to see the sun set on Costa Azzuro. His and his wife's favorite drive. Gotta love euro cars!!
I've put a deposit down on a "Rust Free" Euro Spec 1972 911E. Wish me luck!
Interesting thread. I agree wRick re Euro signals, headlights, and lack of bumperettes. My car benefited from those as well.
As a Florida resident, interesting to read the post re salt research. It's amazing what happens even to highrise condos near the ocean. Hence my cars are in a garage, and I don't leave the door open when a strong Easterly blows. Sounds crazy but you can see the residue on cars afterwards.
For reference . . . .
VIN = 9112200432
Pro of a Euro car for 1968 is a S was not offered in the USA at that time.
I have a 68S that was brought by a service member with the idea of taking it to the states and selling it, so it never had some of the cool Euro stuff since it was ordered new with the USA in mind.
. . . regarding US vs Euro production . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by edmayo
Glad to see this topic come back. I have been thinking about selling my Italian '73S lately. My car is my third, no fourth 2.4S, and third euro version. I know I'll be stirring the pot, but here goes. I think that the euro/ROW cars are above the US cars in pecking order. Why? Because of the RS dna with the highly desirable RS components installed by the factory on ROW cars. Tank, front bracketed cooler, protection pan for tank etc. This along with all the other hallmarks of ROW cars gives a different category of S. Even though the performance is the same, the euro cars are a little lighter and better suited to cruising with the RS ancillaries. And remember these are FACTORY built. Anyone can decroate the tree, but if the factory did it... If given my choice of 2.4S cars, all else being equal, I would always take the euro version. They are just plain a little more exotic and less frumpy with warnings and buzzers and bumpers etc . Mine being a stripper is just a really clean and simple car with some cool stuff. Just the way I would have done it only the factory did. Just my two cents. Not for sale yet!!
Nice to see this thread is still alive... I'm a couple of weeks away for getting my Euro spec then I'll be able to make some more constructive comparison.
Still Euro spec wins hands down on looks!
Fritz,
What sort of stuff is different on your car?
Thanks,
Scott
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fritz A. Ficke
Scott,
Besides the stuff mentioned in the COA,
Suger scoop head lights
MPH speedo
and I believe it came with US turn signal lens ( they are so faded from the AZ sun I have know idea what they were by color)
I am sure there is more but I do not know what to look for.
So it obviously is a Euro car, but it was special ordered by an individual for US market.
I believe they were a few of these enterprising service men who saw an opportunity to grey market import cars.
I brought the car from the second owner who purchased it in 1970.
So? --- how'd things turn out with your Euro car?Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Meldrum
Any üpdates?
...
In reading this thread it occurred to me that my euro car doesn't have 97,933 original miles, she's got 58,759 original miles. And lemme tell ya' there's a lot of rust.
I really dig the original details and adventurous color combinations of the euro cars.
Our Italian delievery 73 doesn't have gas tank fuel evaporative system (charcoal canister), I think like most European cars. Need to leave windows down all the time when parked so gas smell doesn't build up in the car. G.Led
Proper 73 Italy delivered 911's have the black plastic box under the dash through which pass the fuel tank gasses; in from the fuel tank, out via the transparent tube (clamp on the silver cover over the fuse boxes!) through the front section. Fortunately European cars don't have the useless black canister on the suspension pan. Your car has a problem if you smell gas in the car; has nothing to do with being European.Quote:
Originally Posted by gled49
That "useless" black canister system although simple, actually works quite well. I agree that if you have gas smell in your car something is wrong, even without the carbon canister.
Usually the black breather is cracked, or the seal on the tank sending unit is leaking.
No smell in my Italian '73S ... check for cracks and leaks in the circuit as suggested by Adore911Quote:
Originally Posted by gled49
+1, you should not be smelling fresh gas. I've been guilty of saying it's normal for the Euro cars with no charcoal canister. But it's always turned out to be leaks in fuel lines. The leak is often just a weep so it is easy to smell but not easy to find. I then say to myself "why is this line leaking, I replaced that during the restoration?" Then I remember, oh yeah, that was 20 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biancaneve
Time flies :)Quote:
Originally Posted by mobius911
Quote:
Originally Posted by jesseandersson
+1
Exactly my thoughts when reading the thread!
As opposed to starting a new thread, I thought I'd ask in this one:
For those who have imported early 911s or 912s into the US, in addition to the obvious (KM to MPH), were there any other changes DOT made you complete on the car? The reason I ask, my '68 912 was German spec and delivered and later imported to the US. It retained its Euro heater boxes, turn signals, tail lights...KM was changed to MPH. One thing that was changed on the car prior to my ownership were the headlights. The car came to me with US spec sealed beams (glass lens from US spec 65-67 cars), not the Euro Bosch headlights.
My car shows absolutely no sign of front end damage, but I suppose it's possible one of the prior owners swapped headlights at some point for some unknown reason. I'm wondering if this was a possible mandatory change from DOT when it was imported. Anyone ever know of this happening to other imported Porsches from this era?
One pro, for me, was no US DOT side lights and no smog equipment :-)
-Mike
Plastic 85 liter gas tanks in 72-73 euro cars weren't allowed here, so had to be changed to steel 62 liter ones.
I imported my 70S in 1985. The only thing I had to do was replace the master cylinder with a dual circuit cylinder, replace the headlights with US sealed beam units, and replace the speedometer. H1’s went back on a few years later, and I had the original speedometer converted to MPH and put that back in too.
In theory each car had to be brought into compliance with all the features required for the US model for the year of manufacture. You would have to know what was required in 68. For my 73 it included dual brake master cylinder with warning light, seat belt light/buzzer, key buzzer, headlights, gauges, door impact beams, marker lights, switch labels, tire pressure recommendations, etc. I mocked stuff up to take photos for the report but kept the car 100% German spec.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeO_912
So basically you can expect a car to be somewhere on the spectrum between 100% European spec and 100% US spec. All of them should be 100% US spec but I imagine very few are. Cars that had their conversion handled by legitimate businesses were probably converted more faithfully to US spec. Conversions done by the owner (my case) are likely closer to European spec. Today I bet most are like Chuck's- very close to European spec with one or two exceptions.
My current ROW S was shipped to NY from Europe in the late 80's. The owner picked it up at the docks drove it to Ohio and registered it for the street no questions asked. I bought the car in 88' from him in it's full Italian livery with no US compliance. I don't know how but it slipped through the cracks.
Nothing was changed on my car --- as far as I can tell, anyway . . .Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeO_912
. . . instruments, seat belts, emission controls --- even an externally-viewable VIN . . . nothing added/subtracted
And this car was brought into Kleptofornia . . . early '80s
.....
Based on the responses thus far, I'd say this is 100% accurate :DQuote:
Originally Posted by mobius911
Interesting to see the wide range of responses, I appreciate the feedback.
Yeah, kinda stating the obvious!:) A better way to put it is that the cars are all over the place. The more time that has elapsed from import, the more likely they are to have drifted back to European spec. It would be a fun archeological project to go through your car to see how it's kitted.
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned that Euro 71 S's got the super-cool corduroy inserts on the Sport Seats.
Jay
i recently imported a euro P car under the 25 year rule and did not need to change a thing. Km/h, yellow turn signals, no side markers, no EPA/DOT stickers or anything else. It's running around here in the USA exactly the same way it was over there, 100%. First time it was on US-soil, ever. Easy as pie too. This is AZ though, not sure how this works in other states.
That's a great deal, and seems perfectly reasonable; these aren't going to be daily drivers. I would expect, given the relative strength of the dollar right now, that this is a pretty attractive approach. The common complaint is that the German cars tend to be "driven hard and put away wet", but if you can get past that there should be some deals to be had.