Might have found a car for long term resto

Edit: I have given up on this car. Non matching engine with dubious stamping, clerical errors in the registration papers (good luck correcting these 27 years later...) and likely hopeless rust. Too bad, it is an S.

Now that I have finished building my new garage/workshop, I have been idly looking for an early car to restore over the years with my son (now 11). I have found this one, a bit of a fright pig, but seemingly an S with original engine/gearbox. Recaro Ideals are a plus in my opinion.
Opinions, warnings, ideas welcome. I am visiting the car on monday, it is reserved for me until then.
Thanks to all.

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Originally Posted by LongRanger

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Things happen, things change.
Any opinion on the subject car?

Looks great! Wonderful to see you back!! Tell us more about the restoration candidate...

Thank you Peter,
Don't know much about the car yet. Front latch panel is still correct, fenders have fg extensions (de-) laminated on. Obvioulsy missing 4 fenders, 2 complete bumpers, and a front lid (I have an alloy lid). I am leaning towards new parts where available for rust avoidance reasons.
I know the shell with have to get dipped and I would like to know, which parts will be hard or impossible to source.
I am working on finding a shop with a Celette bench. I even see some for sale on the web, with the puller. Are the fitting still available anywhere, even for body shops?
I am not planning on a Dave Conklin-esque 100+ point restoration.

An immense and costly project. Unless you truly want the 'experience' of such an undertaking (whether you do it yourself or hand over tons of money in a 'checkbook' restoration to someone else - as you mention finding a shop with a Celette bench) I don't see the upside at all. Others may be more optimistic than me, but I think there are much more suitable candidates out there. Even if the initial cost of a car that is a better starting point is more expensive, you'll be may $$$ ahead in the end.

Cheers George, welcome back... looks like a MUCH better start then some we've seen here...

cm

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Originally Posted by Chuck Miller

Cheers George, welcome back... looks like a MUCH better start then some we've seen here...

cm

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I would like to see before and after pictures of previous projects. I could care less what they cost but would be interested in knowing if it was a good experience and, more importantly, would you do it again?

Regards

Jim
About to undergo a "restoration" of my 911T and wondering if it is a good idea.

French car ?
What model/year?
And where are you located?

Mac, thanks for the cold shower. I need to be pulled down sometimes.

Chuck, thanks.

Jim, I did a '76 Carrera 3.o from a naked shell up (orange car, was in 911&Porsche world, now belongs to John Glynn of Ferdinand magazine). Had RS #193, sold it to finance my house before I could work on it. Finishing a '89 C4 now. Several others.

928cs, was a french delivered car. Is in Germany now.

To be clear, I think it would need a Celette after dipping, to make sure the front pan is welded in correctly. I am worried it will be too far gone, but I'll visit it before commiting. As for the rest, I now have enough room and knoledge to fully take it apart and reassemble it as well as the knowledge to do it correctly. But finding a 911S 2.2 *with* correct engine/gearbox that is not 140K is no easy deal around here.

I have been wanting an early car since well… forever.

My new workshop, 46 x 40 ft.:

Wow George!

Nice shop.

Jim

If you are near central Europe, I can ask a friend for a good and not too expensive bodyshop.

Do you plan to start from the naked body, like the 3.0?

Nice workshop!

CS, I am in Switzerland.
Not averse to bringing the shell to a good body shop in Europe.

Jim another of the shop. Seeing the end of the build.

George

That is beautiful. Is the door leading to a wine cellar?

Ciao

Jim

Underground tunnel to the house.

Is incredible! I imagine the contrast of the photos with that garage! Nice house!

welcome back...a project with your son will be a life long experience, congratulations...

what an amazing shop!

Seen this advertised. Good luck with the build. Love a nice resto thread.

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Originally Posted by GeorgeK

. . . Things happen, things change . . .

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. . . + things disappear, eh?

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Originally Posted by GeorgeK

. . . Any opinion on the subject car? . . .

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That strut brace looks interesting --- but no 'money' shots of (IMO) the more-critical bits = floors, rockers, trunk + tire well . . . so 'fraid not much to go on, really



And any 'history/story' to share? . . .

. . . how you found it, back-round on the car/owner/etc



And --- as/always . . .

. . . VIN, Eng#, Trans#, etc, etc



.............

That garage would survive a nuclear blast. :)
Europeans build forever.

Hi George, my old friend! Your shop is amazing! A tunnel is brilliant and we should not be surprised you put one in.;) Eleven!, I can hardly believe he is that old now. Good to know you still have the C4. Have you rebuilt the engine yet?

What ever project you end up starting, I will be very interested to follow the progress. I may have come over next summer (with the bike of course) to see you guys and also see what your up to first hand. :)

what model is the car?
clear title?
matching numbers?

It appears to be missing everything which is a bad way to start any project.
It would have to be super cheap or super rare to warrant saving it.

I think it was stated is was a 70-71 911S with a correct 2.2 engine and correct gearbox. Not sue if that means the numbers match.

If the registration is 921 JCW 75, it was issued in October 1990, in Paris.

The steering wheel is typically French also. I had the same model into my first car. I let you guess what this car was...
Attachment 470212

David, indeed. It is built with provision for a future house build on top if the need/possibility ever arises.

Hi Brian, good to read you. Yes, 11. 12 in November. Grows like weed…. Good kid. The 964 had its engine rebuild and a complete body resto, which is waiting in the aisle for the workshop to be finished, with a few of my twists.

TCS, Scott, it is with correct (let's hope matching, although I don't really care about these things) engine and gearbox.
My first query is in that sense, and got no clear answer: Based on what you all see (have nothing more until monday), are there any parts that are impossible to source? Any strucutral part of the shell that might be rusted beyond economical repair non-available today?

cs, I'd say the registration is correct. We'll see that. I knew about Paris, not about the year. What a sweet steering wheel (not…).

Pics for Brian:

Do you already know the VIN of this car?

What color is your 964? It is funny to see one with winter rims.
I have such a set for my 928.

No VIN as of now. Not until monday.
964 is "samtrot" (rouge velours / velvet red). Wheels are 928 winter rims, with the fronts cut from 7" to 6" (offset turns out perfect).

Samtrot is a very nice color, and unusual too :cool:

Regarding the 2.2 S, I'm surprised by the front strut and I would look for evidence of a past roll cage.

George, your 964 look fantastic! Such a great color. Not bad for a car you found under a tarp.;) I really like the color combo inside your new shop/garage. Reminds me of a color scheme on 'The Ski'.

George...Welcome back...you're the one who started it all....Kiln red and Green...a combo I never would have thought of mentioning in the "same sentence"...Now, I love it!..(that would work with "Samtrot" as well, you know).../ Lars...:cool:...

btw...Great Garage with underground tunnel..."over here" the authorities would go "ga-ga" regarding Radon detection...over there you probably consider it a health treatment...i.e like going to a "kuhrohrt" ...:rolleyes: ...

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Originally Posted by larwik

Kiln red and Green...

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I threw up in my mouth.

Sorry; that's atrocious. But I do appreciate the confidence it takes.

And yes, I too love the bomb shelter that doubles as a garage. Wonderful space.

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Originally Posted by Frank Beck

I threw up in my mouth.

Sorry; that's atrocious. But I do appreciate the confidence it takes.

And yes, I too love the bomb shelter that doubles as a garage. Wonderful space.

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Happens often enough. Not surprised. For the anecdote, that 930 was odered new by a Mr. François Trisconi. He finished 3rd at Le Mans in 1979 in a 935. Chose the colors himsef. Was a furniture seller.
Fastest I have ever driven is in this car, 171 mph on the german autobahn. Was a very good car. Not entirely stock.


Thanks. It took over 5 years from an embryonic idea to completion, through countless adventures.

GPS loaded. Departure 5am to Germany. Let's hope it is a good candidate.

"Sorry; that's atrocious." ...lol...Frank, give it some time...It might be your new favorite, after "Sepia" of course.../ Lars...

George, Just saw this thread. Lets hope the tin worm has not done much damage. Have a safe trip.

Ciao Rick!
Miss the weekend runs to Burlington! Any snow yet?

Fingers crossed for your visit ;)

OK, Long day. Started at 5AM behind the wheel, ended 5.30PM back at home.
First things first, the numbers. See for yourselves:

So it's a 71. There is another car on the registry list that is 9111301345 with engine 6301446. Seems there is a good chance of matching numbers.

(EDIT -does that engine stamp look like a re-stamp - stars look funny?)

Scott

I think the engine number (which I am having a hard time believing is genuine) points to the 1445th S engine of 1970? However the engine type 911/02 seems genuine.

Looks fake to me George. Why would one of the big time Porsche guy's in Germany be trying to shift this....?

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Originally Posted by GeorgeK

. . . First things first, the numbers. See for yourselves . . .

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VIN = 9111301394
Eng# = 6301445
Trans# = ?
Prod# = ?


VIN is 1971, S

Eng# is 1970, S




Any 'money' shots? . . .


. . . or is this car pfft!




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Awesome colors on the Turbo! Almost M5T worthy ;) It’s been a while since you were driving the Cup 944 @ NS. Best regards to MC. The project looks worthwile, but a monster job, looking forward to the updates!

“Bump Draft” George.... welcome back!

What is the paint code ?
I can't read it.
I agree,this seems to be a 1971 2.2 S, with a 2.2 S engine, 1970 from the suspicious stamping.

Any paper with it?

Sorry no pics for now, stayed in the home PC (I'm at work) will try tonight.
Stretch, CS, agree. Looks like a gross fake engine stamping. But the engine type seems genuine. Motive for that?
Dave, Hi! Very good memories of following the black S.
Stevie, you know the M5T? Have we met on the 'Ring? That was a white elephant.
Long ranger: ". . . or is this car pfft!", I don't understand.

A few more lines bout the trip:
It has been a long day, with 900Kms driving. Freisinger is a huge place, with over 150 shells, stocked on industrial shelves outside, most with some damage and a lot with all ID plates and stampings cut out - I figure it has to do with german laws regarding total loss cars that should only be used as organ donors, not to be put back on the road (?).
The people were nice. Not the warmest, but I figure I must have been the millionth person wanting to look at a car they have. Mr Freisinger showed me the car, and let me inspect if for over 90 minutes, let me take all pictures I wanted and came to check after on hour to ask if we were all right. Not pushy, not overbearing, the right attitude if you want to look quietly at a car.

The car:
Oh my.... It has been raced and put away wet. Front strut brace is still in, nicely welded supports. There are plates for a ful cage on the floor in front, in back and on the rear wheel wells. They are NOT professional work. I would have never put these plates on the floor only, but rather on a combination of several structures. The seats are Ideals, but without rails, just dropped in the car. dash has several broken knobs. Dials are all correct, need a refurbish at the minimum. door handles are OK, only front door pockets, both damaged.
The rest of the interior is all crap. Nothing to save, not even for another car. Pedal cluster is frozen solid. Shifter is a 915, not connected. I suspect the car has been raced with some other engine/gearbox combo, and these were put in to sell it.

In the front, the suspension pan is surprisingly solid. Holes in both battery boxes. Air horn with 3 trumpets (I like this one!) There is about 4 inches of standing water in the smuggler box, which indicates that there is no perforating rust there. Front firewall seems solid. Ventilation butchered, missing some parts. Latch plate original and seems solid enough.

Sills... Right is missing half of the outer sill, with oil lines exposed. Middle sill is crusty. Inner sill seems OK. Left side is stronger.
Floors... Large holes right front, no other holes seen, but I suspect that by the pedal cluster will be serious rot.
Rear seats: could not assess correctly, but not completely gone. I could hit with a crewdriver and not punch through.
Rear shelf: not seen.
Fenders, all 4 are crap, latch plates compromised both sides. Hinge plates seem OK at leat in the upper 3/4.
Doors, right is done for, left might be salvageable.
Lids: front is DOA, rear is a fiberglasss turbo tail on an SC lid with its plastic grille.
Rear longitudinals OK, oil system all there, including front alloy cooler.
Engine seems correct. Could not see the MFI pump number. Mg stacks with part stuck butterflies.
Wiring: Lots of hacks. That I can repair.
Suspension- brakes: Konis and alloy front calipers

So all in all, I'd be buying a 2.2S shell, 2.2S non matching engine (of indeterminate origin, but seems correct and complete), an unknown gearbox, correct suspension, dials, all of which need total resto. All the rest is fit for the bin.

I am not afraid of the work, but I worry about the potential engine number/stamping issue, and I think the asking price (37K €) as of now is too high.

I'll try pics tonight, but welcome more reactions.

Paint code is 8080 11

Hi George,
Excited to see you back and in the market for a long hood. Freisinger is known to be one of the more expensive Sellers in DE.
What does he know about the car's history? Is it originally a German delivered car? Based upon the VIN number, it is a ROW car. If it was originally delivered in Europe, and they are a well known Porsche parts dealer in Germany, Freisinger should have a Geburtsurkunde for the car.
Once you figure import costs to CH from Germany, and the amount of work and cost that would need to go into this thing without it being a numbers matching car, it seems like the resto costs will far outweigh the cost of simply buying a good original 2.2-2.4T coupe and doing a 911S spec engine rebuild. Just a thought...
All the best
Garth

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Originally Posted by GeorgeK

". . . or is this car pfft!", I don't understand . . .

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. . . = 'gone' --- in this case, 'not worth considering'


Without seeing your pics, I'm with Garth. Seems like a lotta work to end up with something of --- let's be kind . . . problematic value

I mean --- anything can be brought back . . .

http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...-of-a-RHD-2-2S

More a question of which is important/valuable to you . . .


. . . the 'doing'? . . .


. . . or the 'having'?





Enjoy your choices




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Non matching mess for €37? Those of us who deal with Freisinger know he doesn't budge on pricing. (Why should he?) Nothing to see here.

Chalk your time and trip up to getting to meet the man, the myth, the legend. (Had to laugh when you said 5-5 was a long day...)

Best of luck.

I think a consensus is forming. A shame, since I would prefer an S. But the engine # issue is too big to ignore.
I'll post the rest of the pictures tonight.
Frank, the guy I spoke with actually got from 40 to 37 in the first phone call.
It *was* a long day. For me at least. 900 Kms is a lot of driving in Europe. And it was actually 4-10 when all is accounted for :o

Garth: Good to "see" you! Still in Bayern?

Looks like you're on the right track. Engine type looks correct but clearly a restamp. We seem to be seeing a lot more of these restamps lately. I suppose the problem will only get worse as values rise.

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Originally Posted by Gearby

Engine type looks correct but clearly a restamp. We seem to be seeing a lot more of these restamps lately. I suppose the problem will only get worse as values rise.

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Actually I would submit that this practice may have been more prevalent back in the day when no one cared about restamps. If you replaced a damaged case with a new or used one why wouldn't you stamp the proper number in it? When this practice was common 40+ years ago it never occurred to any of us that it might "enhance" value. (I know for you young start-ups that seems inconceivable but it's true.) It was simply used as an identifier. This whole matching numbers thing is a fairly recent gimmick and phenomenon. I'm not against it and I certainly earn a nice living because of it but I just think it's silly from a pragmatic standpoint.

That certainly could be correct although I would venture to guess that if nobody cared about matching numbers, then why go to the trouble of restamping the case?
I'm afraid you assume too much with regards to my newbie status. Porsches were all that I did from the late 80s through the mid-90s. And I will say, I don't think I ever heard a reference to matching numbers back then. It simply wasn't relevant at the time. I can also say that we were never asked to restamp a case. The discussion never came up.

I don't really care about the non-matching number, rather about the possibility that someone in the licensing authorities will see that it is a counterfeit stamping, and decide to not license the car, or worse, seize the engine.
Yes they have that type of (silly) power around here.
That, notwithstanding the rest of the car.

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Originally Posted by Gearby

That certainly could be correct although I would venture to guess that if nobody cared about matching numbers, then why go to the trouble of restamping the case?
I'm afraid you assume too much with regards to my newbie status. Porsches were all that I did from the late 80s through the mid-90s. And I will say, I don't think I ever heard a reference to matching numbers back then. It simply wasn't relevant at the time. I can also say that we were never asked to restamp a case. The discussion never came up.

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Sorry; wasn’t insinuating you are a newbie.

Not a problem. No offense taken. My skin is thicker than that, I'm not a millennial.
George, I can see where that would be a problem. We don't really have that issue over here. I guess we do here in Washington State. But they don't know enough about Porsches to be able to tell a restamp.

OK, back home. Pics:

More pictures

Last batch

The 92 to 94 "vignettes" seem to indicate that this car is out of the road since around 1994. Is there any paper with it?

I let the others comment on the condition.

Did not get arount to asking for papers when I visited. They told me they have a french registration document with the car.

Run forest, run

I wouldn’t pay $20k for that POS. And that would only be for harvesting organs.

What a freaking mess.

Further info: The registration papers that come with the car have a different VIN: 9111301384 (car is 94).
I guess I'll do like Frank and Jules say...
Who's got a car for me? max 40K.

Does it have to be an S?

Have a 69 911E sunroof coupe project. Metal work done, matching numbers, Fuchs, T-bars, 5 speed, MFI, complete for about $30k. Even have a proper MFI pump and T-bodies rebuilt and available.
Originally Irish Green; now Restoration Design Black.

I'll post it soon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frank Beck

Does it have to be an S? No.

Have a 69 911E sunroof coupe project. Metal work done, matching numbers, Fuchs, T-bars, 5 speed, MFI, complete for about $30k. Even have a proper MFI pump and T-bodies rebuilt and available.
Originally Irish Green; now Restoration Design Black. Yes!

I'll post it soon.

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PM coming your way.

Edit: Can't. your box is full.

Colon now cleansed.

PM email and I’ll send the low down and pics.

Hi George, Good decision to walk away. If you had decided to go ahead, I was seriously contemplating an intervention before you got thru the St Gotthard tunnel. ;-)
Okay, your Budget is 40k $, € or CHF? Coupe or Targa. What year am liebsten? Does it have to be matching numbers? Does it have to be a 911, or could it be a 912 which you could eventually add 2 cylinders to????
And yes, I am still in the town in which men wear Lederhosen and women wear Dirndls for 3 weeks in the fall - and the rest of the year make fun of the Landeie.... ;-)

GK



buy those seats!

Garth,
40K€ is close enough to 40K Chf and to 40K $ to not matter if the right car comes along. 911, matching numbers. No 912. Coupe, no targas. As for the rest, I want a project. Something that I can restore/work on/tinker. Of course no train wreck like the 2.2 subject of this thread. If I can choose (beggars are not choosers), then a 70 or 71, but in fact anything lwb would be perfect. I don't want a SWB because I'd feel obligated to make it factory correct, which migh restrict me somewhat.

I * want* to see you in a Dirndl.

Tangerine, good idea. I'll try and ask them. I hope they're not too cross that I told them their registration papers for the car are wrong, making it almost impossible to sell...

George,
Here's the COA; I should have pics to you today.

I gotta think the ski rack is a cool option for you. Here in Scottsdale only D-bags drive around with ski racks on their Porsches.

'. . . The 1971 Porsche 911T shown here with matching numbers is available in this gorgeous color combination of white with black interior. It is equipped with a 5-speed manual transmission, Weber carburetors, Fuchs wheels and includes the jack and spare tire. The Porsche has lots of potential, and has had the same owner for many years and has just recently come out of storage. For $36,500 . . .'

https://www.beverlyhillscarclub.com/...11t-c-8594.htm




(Not mine)



Dunno what your shipping costs + taxes/duties/etc are --- but I would start negotiating @<$25k

And --- depending on who you have in mind/access to for repairs/restoration . . . you might even get some of the metal work done here in CA prior to

Would definitely require a proper/closer inspection, but . . .

. . . might be worth a plane trip?


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Hi Rick,
Interesting car, with some serious rust underneath, but could be a candidate.
Might have a good one lined up, though. Hopeful.
Thanks.

. . .

http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...l=1#post991663




.......

If you would've built something under this starting in 2006 like I told you, you'd have something by now ... :D

Attachment 471900

Hey Curt, good to see you here as well.
Good memories. You midwest team are in great part responsible for my wanting an early car for so long.
Now to wait another few weeks.

Any üpdates to share? . . .


. . . REAL curious about the process of importation/transportation/registration in CH




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Hi Rick,
Yes. Car bought, paid, and waiting at the shippers'. Should embark on a cargo this week, for an arrival around Christmas.
I have found a 4th 6X15 wheel, so I'll have the choice between the 14" and the 15", and an alloy rear lid (not correct, but it is so cool, might use it anyway).

Hey, George . . .

. . . you might wanna consider your tire choices when picking wheels. Everybody complains about proper hi-performance 15" tires, so I would imagine 14" would be even worse?

And what's this about an alu lid not being 'correct'? 'Cause the one I found/installed? . . .


. . . = 911E

http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...l=1#post475237




And you didn't mention what kind of 'E' you have --- Porsche- or Karmann-built . . . and I can't say for sure just when these alu lids were first installed --- but Karmann stamped theirs w/the last few digits of their vehicles' production number . . .

http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...hlight=karmann

. . . sooooooo . . .




.........

Aah too late I just stumbled over a '65 in germany, with the looks of a g-model turbo and some rust issues

Rick,
car is Porsche, not Karmann built.
I am aware of the tire issue, but, 1-I won't be choosing tires for another few years, and 2-This E will not be the drive fast go crazy type. I have other faster cars.

UAI, thanks. I would not have gone for a '65. These deserve (demand?) a 100 point resto, which is a bit much for me. Easier to make a '69 correct than a '65.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeorgeK

. . . car is Porsche, not Karmann built . . .

---

Mine = same . . .


. . . but alu panels are suuuuuuch a 'signature' bit




...........

Any üpdates? . . .





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Yes, update:
Cargo ship docks in Rottrrdam tomorrow or on the 1st. It will be brought into Switzerland by a carrier. I expect it by late january.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeorgeK

. . . update:
Cargo ship docks in Rottrrdam tomorrow or on the 1st. It will be brought into Switzerland by a carrier. I expect it by late january . . .

---

http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...3506-119200154




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