Porsche 911L 1968 901/30 Racing-Rally

Wonder how many 911L 1968 rally racing cars exist of them 28 rally-racing cars that were equipped with 901/30 engine, which according to Porsche's own information had engine number 3880001-3880028. Seems like the 911L with 901/30 engine used on the racing track in the U.S. and Europa as rally cars. I know some of the cars with these engines, hope there is more information to get about these interesting cars;



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911L racing in USA

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911L rally in Europa





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911L 1968 Rally-Racing cars


Vin and engine number for 3 cars.
11810437 3880005
11810438 3880006
11810482 3880010

This information comes from a Swedish book published in collaboration with the Swedish Automobile Sports Federation 1969. Hope my translation from Swedish is good enough.

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A few years ago met the Porsche claims to be classified as a touring car which had the effect of car-adjusted purely in the price lists of numerous touring car races. The model 911 L, which we competed with, however, discontinuation of why there is now allowed to drive with other vehicles of the type Lotus Elan, or group 3.
For forest competitions can also receive Porsche equipped from the factory when there was a rally package with some of the details needed to improve both performance and handling. Furthermore, you can get your car fitted with a different gearbox with limited slip, but this is something of an Achilles heel for the car. For the gearbox did not suit the car's conventional drive shafts, and instead you get when using parts from Carrera 6 which is a much lighter car. Under extreme stress, it happens often that the drive shafts shortcomings, perhaps the most inopportune moments.
By installing parts from the sharper 911 S engine power can easily be increased to 150-160 hp which is enough to give it substantially rally car acceleration 0-100 in 7.9 seconds. Top speed with a "normal" competition ratio is not higher than 180 km per hour to over 200 for the standard
The price for a complete rally equipped Porsche is around 47000 SEK.
On the race track, you need a car that costs almost as much. Here you avoid the stone guards and extra light on the other hand would be enough to squeeze out a few more engine horsepower and the cars that Scania Vabis Porsche teams using the engines of around 175 horsepower, which gives an acceleration of 0-100 in about 7 seconds and a top speed around 180 km. At rallies do not dare to take out the engine as many horses as possible when you have to have a life then of course the races going on for several hours or even days. On the track, however, drive just rarely longer than one quarter at a time and you can therefore afford to compromise on life for the engine. For the other costs will be at the track the precious alloy wheels with extra-wide racing tires. A wheel with tires will cost almost 1000 SEK.

Got a new VIN number for 911L (901/30) from one Early 911S member, 11810486 and engine number.


11810437 3880005 Rally car
11810438 3880006 Rally car
11810482 3880010 Race car
11810486 3880009 Race car

Hi Thomas
this is a great idea to start a thread on these little known cars.

I have details on some cars, some of this information came from posts on this and other parts which have come directly from Thomas and some other sources. (by the way Thomas I think a couple of the engine numbers you posted above are reversed from what I have listed)

below is my list. it is by no means comprehensive but ion most cases i have copies of COA's, factory telexes or other documents to support the numbers and photos of most cars (which I can post as soon as I get some time). I would welcome any additions and corrections to this information so we can have a reasonably accurate source of the truth on this board.

there is inevitably an overlap in what has been posted above but I have tried to do them in chassis order. Note the odd one out is 0414 in terms of engine number etc but I understand that those were the numbers on the kardex

911L details
118 1 0177 engine 388 0003 (901/30) gearbox 928 2006 (901/52)
Don Pike Trans Am car #69 COA says rally kit sports kit etc

118 1 0414 engine 308 0389 gearbox 328 1021 (902 / 1)
Waldegaard rally car BB3020

118 1 0429 engine 388 0008 gearbox number begins 928 2...
Wetsons Trans Am car #20 1969/71

118 1 0437 engine 388 0006 (901/30?)
white car sold in Germany

118 1 0438 engine 388 0005 (901/30) gearbox 928 1006
Swedish rally car BB4300 (Andersson/Svedberg).

118 1 0439 engine 388 xxxx (901/30) gearbox 928 ? (twin of 0438)
Swedish rally car BB4200 (Waldegård/Helmer and BB4900

118 1 0449 engine 388 xxxx?
Fred Baker Trans Am car. Was for sale this year anyone know details?

118 1 0482 engine 388 0010 (901/30) gearbox 928 2016
Bob Bailey Trans Am car #22 COA says rally kit sports kit

118 1 0486 engine 388 0009 (901/30) gearbox 928 2017
John Kelly Trans Am car sports kit rally kit
Other likely cars
Lars Nyström 911L.#14 BB 4151 rally car
Duvigneaud red #86 911L from Brno Grand Prix in 1968
Kremer red #84 911L from Brno Grand Prix in 1968
Kremer white #85 911L from Brno Grand Prix in 1968
Kremer red #94 911L from Brno Grand Prix in 1968
Zasada factory rally car S E 8052 Acropolis Rally 1968

Hi Don

thanks for the extra information. some of the information i have has come from your informative posts in the pastand your website.

as to you comment " I was under the impression the Wetson car was destroyed and was wondering where the serial number came from."

this is where i got it from http://www.racingsportscars.com/chas...010%20429.html
this site shows it as the Daytona winner #20 in GT 2.0 in 1969 for Tony Adamowicz /Bruce Jennings /Herb Wetanson

i also have something that was posted on a board somewhere (and i dont have details where ) which states " poor scan of 118 1 0429 kardex. engine 388 0008 Trans number begins 928 2... options : rallykit, 100 liters tank (other information unreadable and in German text )" Indeed it may have even been you who posted it???

so far as whether it was destroyed I don't know.
the racingsportscars site shows it as still competing in the 1971 Watkins glen 6 hours with Bert Everett and Bob Beasley.
I did note in the photos from 1969 that Westons had 2 cars with near identical livery the other car carrying (i think ) race number 22 (for Cuomo / Moore at 1969 Trans am Bridgehampton at least)

Raj might know if it was destroyed or not.... I have a photo of a car that looks like the Daytona car with the Westons livery and race #20 with Raj's 91R in the background. I suspect that is the car that you mention was recently sold. That car may be the real thing, or it may be a recreation, or it may be the Daytona winner but not be 118 1 0429 as shown in the website i referred to; I dont know - but Raj may.

Thnaks for clarifying this Don

now we have to confirm what the number of the Jennings car that was recently sold is, whether it is 118 1 0429

Don,

Is your 'Don Pike' car the same white 911 he drove for Don Burns in '68?

Chuck,

I spoke with Don Pike about that and he told me it was not the same car and that he did not drive for Burns! I don't know what to make of that autographed picture. Don is older now and maybe he just did not remember.

Don

I am not sure if this helps but I have an entry list for the SCCA races at santa barbara on 1 september 1968

the entry list shows Don Pike in a Kendon Porsche entered 911 class Bs #69
It also shows him entered in a 904 for Otto Zipper car #69 but an accompanying document shows that car as did not arrive

there is no entry that i could see for a Don Burns car, either as entrant or driver at that race meeting.

so Don Pike would have been there to sign a program but not neccessarily as a driver of the car on the cover.

ARRC NOVEMBER 1968, B SEDAN race : Don PIKE is leading Alan JOHNSON' s DON BURN car
http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/7...rc11685.th.jpg

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Let me clarify about the Santa Barbara program...

- It is the program I received when I attended the race when I was 19 in '68

- Don Pike's signature on the cover is only about 2 years old, when he signed it at a Fabulous Fifties event.

- I held on to the program for about 30 years when I started meeting and re-acquainted myself with some of the heroes of my youth.

- I eventually showed my old program to Topper Chassie, Milt Minter, Davey Jordan, and Scooter Patrick. They all came to conclusion that that driver was Pike.......

- Years later when I showed Don Pike the program to have him sign he said "Where the hell did you get that" he did not confirm or deny he was on the cover.

Now,

My sincere apologies for making an unsubstantiated statement...

On further examination of my 2 1968 SCCA programs there seems to be more then enough evidence to establish that Alan Johnson was driving a 911 for Don Burns in 1968 in both C/Production and B/Sedan.

This ad for Economotors in my '68 Riverside SCCA National program pretty much confirms driver to car........

Again, my apologies for making inference into fact for far too long a time.......

Chuck

Appologies not needed Chuck. Wish it was the same car. Who knows where it is today.........Pike's car surfaced after 40 plus years so you never know.

Don

Here is some more information for those who are not so familiar with what the engine number 388XXXX and gearbox numbers 928XXXXX means. Second digit of engine number is 8 and then it is a "sondermotoren", in English specialty engine. Gearbox first figure, in this case is 9 and it is a "sondergetribe" (special gearbox).

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I just dug up a Road and Track article from 1968 that mentions that THREE of these cars were ordered from the Southern California Porsche Distributor at the same time, one for Alan Johnson to race for Don Burns, one for Vasek Polak and one for Don Pike. Only the Pike car is known. Does anyone have any leads on the Burns or Vasek cars?? Interestingly the article which is about Alan Johnson's 67S shows the super rare Speedster type buckets in Alan's 67. Also these cars weighed 2,060 vs 2,250 for a standard car.

Don

The article is misleading as the Rally Kit/Sport Kit cars for 68 were based on the L or the T. The S was dropped in 68 in favor of the T Rally. This was published in the Sports Purpose manual and order bullitens. I did own an Italian 68S Sport Kit/Rally Kit car so I guess anything was possible but from all of the cars I have seen here in the US they were either the L or the T Rally for 68. My car was referenced in the article and it is the L not an S.

Don

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Found this 911L in German mobile side, it has the VIN number 11810404. Does anyone know if it can be a car that was equipped with 388xxxx engine. Perhaps one of the German readers know?

http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/sh...e&pageNumber=1

"-O'Neill's acquisition proved unique. Though badged as a
911S, it duplicat..."
Raj- the article was just getting to the matter when you stopped
the copy!?

Thomas, the VIN is close to the other cars, but from the description it sounds more like a recreation than an original car. A look at the Kardex for it would be important. Also, you need to get the numbers from the car to see what it currently has in it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rennman

The article is misleading as the Rally Kit/Sport Kit cars for 68 were based on the L or the T. The S was dropped in 68 in favor of the T Rally. This was published in the Sports Purpose manual and order bullitens. I did own an Italian 68S Sport Kit/Rally Kit car so I guess anything was possible but from all of the cars I have seen here in the US they were either the L or the T Rally for 68. My car was referenced in the article and it is the L not an S.

Don

---

"I did own an Italian 68S Sport Kit/Rally Kit car so I guess anything was possible" (12-21-2010 06:04 PM / Rennman) .....................


followed by :

"Factory ducumentation exists that no 68S Rally kit cars were to be produced." (12-22-2010 06:20 PM #27 / Rennman)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These two statements by the same person are quite contradictory.

If there's documentation - provide it. Otherwise it just seems self forfilling .

Although if your previous statement regarding owning a 1968 S model built with rallykit is true. Then even if some paperwork was produced . Showing in writing , that it was the factories plan not to produce any. That does not mean it was adhered to. Again , if your statement is fact , about this italian car..............


I know Claudius Z. specialises in 1968. If there is a question regarding anything 1968 911. I would ask him.

It is contradictory. My Italian car was an anomoly. It was a fully trimmed ,undercoated S with Rally Kit and Sport Kit 2. It even had a radio and full sound deadening ect. It was special ordered by a group of 6 Italian rally drivers (Kardex confirmed) I have the US bullitin that shows the 68S Rally Kit was discontinued for 68. The person who gave it to me, a board member asked that it not get posted. The T Rally was the replacement with the S engine and stripped T body. If you reread what I stated from all accounts the Factory special cars that competed in the USA were all Ls or Ts. The Sport kit 2 was a small option consisting of exhaust megaphones, carb jets and venturis, carb tables and a catch can. A great option to have on a car today but not as desirable as Rally Kit car. The Rally Kit was the big option which transformed the car. A car ordered with the Rally Kit often had alot of other options ordered with it to go racing. The T became a different and much more valuable animal with this one option. These Rally Kit cars trade for 10 to 15 times the value of an ordinary L or T. A car with just the Sport Kit adds some value but not in multiples. The article that I cited though written about a 67S mentioned a new batch of three cars being ordered for 68. Where it was misleading was it would make one beleive it was an S they were describing. I own one of the cars the article mentioned and it is an L not an S. Another interesting note the documentation that I have states Sport kit can not be ordered without the rally Kit for 68 which I do not think was adheared to. I stand by my research that there were no 68S Rally Kit cars sent to the US for competition and I doubt there were any full optioned 68S Rally Kit cars raced anywhere else either. Don Pike owned and raced multiple cars at the same time, as did Herb Wetenson, Bruce Jennings, Vasek Polak, Peter Gregg, just to name a few. The R had no where to race in the USA or anywhere else in GT. It had to be raced as a prototype where it was not competitive which I guess was a good thing as many remain today. These original very important 911s started the legacy for Porsche in GT racing which is why Porsche started the Sports Purpose program in the first place. It firmly established the 911 in GT racing.

Don

If somebody want to write the name of the 6 italian rally drivers, i could be know something......
I know in person at least 2 of them....
Best
Andrea

Here I have made a list of the cars that I know of. Do you have any information about other cars that had 901-30 engine, I am grateful if you could let me know.
Thomas


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Raj and Don:
Do you guys appreciate how kewel it is to have these things in your own shed? Us mere mortals look at pictures and 'fake' our 906 engines with under-ground cranks, GT3 rods, jag cap distributers and the like.

Keep up the interesting details, it's fun reading. Just don't piss each other off, life is too short.

Get out and drive, put a simle on that face and enjoy getting to own a piece of history.

I'm going to go whip the 'hamster' in my 912 and smile a bit myself and pretend it's a 'tiger' (906) :-).

t

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by varunan123

raj

BTW just so you know it is not unusual to take delivery of a car with standard engine or without an engine from the factory for racing the kardex by itself does not give one all the story esp in a race car...........

---

(raj , it's funny , that you were getting into referencing early grp. 5 , just as I was writing a reply bringing it up )

First off, regarding cars bought sans motors ..... then on to 906/R type motors & grp. 5 :

One example of this (cars less motor) , just to start , is the Dr. Dalio 1968 911S . That is shown on this forum somewhere. Ordered less engine , then I believe he was ordering an R motor to follow. But then upped the order to a whole 911R car.

I will be posting over at the new thread started by raj , (http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...-Rennen-models) on anything related to any possible special 1968 911S 'plus' cars.

For one, either Porsche built more R spec. motors (even in 1968 MY) than is chronicled. Or distributors/dealers/privateers built a good amount. As if your a student of 1966 - 71 european circuit & rally racing. You will find not only many entries noted as "911S" (or mysteriously noted just "911" , when other 911 entries in the same race / differant group - have the model specifically noted) entered in "group 5" . You will also find cars listed as "911R" listed in group 6 , or referenced in period news reports as "911R" . That , if you can find photos of alot them , you will notice they don't have 911R fenders , or plexi windows , or R turn signals.

Group 5 :

"Group 5 was an FIA motor racing classification which was applied to four distinct categories during the years 1966 to 1982. Initially , Group 5 regulations defined a Special Touring Car category and from 1970 to 1971 the classification was applied to limited production Sports Cars restricted to 5 litre engine capacity."

As far as I can tell , raj is just callling it as the facts present themselves. If anyone thinks they can know it all. Unless you were there , in Europe , as part of the factory - building - or dealing with procurment. Or a customer procuring this stuff , there is no way you could know all of what actually happened. And all that was available.

Also , in 1969 (at least in Europe) , if you look closely at photo's . you will notice the majority of Porsche 911 racers were still using 1968 and earler cars.

I'm still waiting for Hugh. H , and Claudius Z. , to chime in.

This is a great thread.... Wish I owned one of these cars described. Though there is a little strong feelings on both sides, I don't think it's gone too far, and it also brings out facts and opinions that are important to the delineation of these vehicles. If I "could" contribute you know I would.....

tks,
Eric

Here is a list of more 911L who competed. Although some pictures.


http://www.racingsportscars.com/type...e/911%20L.html

A word of caution......

Really interesting thread (apart from the personal stuff, not interesting and shows nobody in a good light!) but just a word of caution as we try to research all this great history.........I have seen numerous period motor sport events where the entry list, including type of car, is assembled from individual entry sheets completed by the entrants and often pulled together by somebody with a limited understanding/knowledge, so the guy with the 911R writes "911" in the car model section and "911" is what it is in the programme for the event and so on; the same is often found with cubic capacity declarations.

Not a resaon to stop the debate or the detactive work....just something to keep in the back of the mind.

Regards

Thomas, Tim et al perhaps you could help me out on this (and get the thread back on track): I think the 901/30 included in its specs the 911S camshafts, pistons and cylinders, 40IDS carburetors, red shroud and yellow tag distributor all combined with 911Normal heads with the smaller ports/valves. Accordingly, the engine spec was quite special for the sports kit cars and not really equivalent to a standard production 911S spec motor. Is that correct and if so what was the factory's reasoning behind the use of the 911N heads? Thanks, Tom

Raj; Thanks. So a black fan shroud with S carbs, which had high speed enrichment circuits, longer duration S cams, 9.8 pistons and it seems the 911N heads. Perhaps the smaller ports of the 911N heads aided all-around drivability as the engine benefitted from higher port velocities in the lower engine speed range. in that era the factory was still a specialist manufacturer and the uniqueness of the sports kit 911L shows their desire to find the ideal combination for the needs of its equally unique clientele. It would be interesting to see a period image of a 901/30 sitting in a 911L. Thanks again for the specs, Tom

Raj: I had missed that view in the video that Thomas posted. I agree, that is a very interesting shot. I think most restorers put a red shroud on these 901/30 powered cars, which is incorrect based on the factory specs. I seem to recall that AndyBoy has a car done up with the engine bay detail of redundant Bosch coils and Bendix fuel pumps - a very business like look and based on my experience with old Bendix pumps, a very good idea too! Thanks, Tom

Raj; Thanks for posting all the documents. Is that a '68 door handle on the red number 5 car? Tom

Hallo Raj,

The photo of the engine are from Waldegard 911 (B 34880) in 1967 as he competed in 1967. The engine was built by Porsche mechanics on Scania Vabis rally team and had more hp than the orignal 130 hp. It was not the 911L, which he had 1968. The second photo is Helmer, who stands at Waldegard 911L 1968 at a service in the Gulf-London Rally 1968. Behind stands Lars Nyströms 911L and it is Nyströms co-driver standing next to Helmer.

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Photo from Porsche rally team in Scania-Vabis garage in Södertälje Sweden.

I'm slightly confused by one of the motor terms in those pages raj posted, explaining motors , and modifications.

So is the "2000R" motor refered to in the pages just posted (thread page 6), a 2000 'rally' motor ? Not a 906 / 911R type motor ? As the pages are refering to running it 40 IDS webers:

"Externally the 2000 R motor ..... it has a black shroud ......and Webers carburetors of the type 40 IDS" .

Didn't the 911R's use 46mm webers ? Or not always. Specifically noted on the 'INCREASING ENGINE PERFORMANCE' sheets, on a couple pages prior of this thread (thread page 4).

It states there : "Carburators type 46 - IDA 3C / 3C 1 (standard equipment on 911R)" . So this is a bit confusing ?

Is the "2000 R" motor a 911R spec motor ? And this just means a "2000 R" motor , could be being used in this referance cas meaning all but the 46mm webers and accompanying intakes ?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And regarding the referance by Bantam , about competitors entering their own model type . This might be true. But...

....even though it's 1969 , here's an example of what i'm speaking of .....

(I'm moving this to) :

http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...-Rennen-models

peekaboo: The 2000R equates to a single ignition 901/30 with 40IDS whilst the 911R designation equates to a twin ignition 901/22 with 46IDA. The distinction is that a 2000R was a rally motor built with a combination of production car bits whilst the 911R was essentially a 906 full race motor using mostly special race parts. Hope this clears it up.

Found this information on one old thread from 2008 on Early 911S Registry.

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Raj

Here is the thread.

http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...read.php?50203

Thomas

They were lighter. Porsche did not undercoat or use any sound deadening pads on these cars. No rear jumpseats or radio. Bucket seats were lighter too...

Don

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by varunan123

My question was indirect did the 68 ROW L have less coating-but more importantly i would assume all chassis were without any type of coating and these cars had no coating applied or did they all have coatings and these cars had them removed in the production process and the ROW L had less coating and that is why they were used ???What if any production differences in the chassis are there between euro 911L and US 911L


with rally opt came with delete but otherwise could be spec'ed spearate.

raj

---

Well, the sidelights and smog pumps come to mind as well for the US L vs the ROW L. I rather guess the homologation was not entirely model name specific but, specific in chassis/model differences which the US and ROW 911Ls definitely had. This would account for the distinct chassis VINs used.

I always thought that the guys going Sedan racing in the Trans Am Series got the 911L while the sports car guys racing in SCCA C Production received the 911T and 911S. There was of course some cross pollenization as time wore on post-1968.

This is a GREAT thread....

The cars with their VINs you can historically account for is one thing (and great)

However, once they started competing here in the States Tom has a point.......

The SCCA had everything to do with how and what you entered in a class. And as was said, '68 was one of the most transitional...(read weird and arbitrary)

In '66 a 911 would run in D-Production. Jerry Titus won many races in Vasek's first racing 911.

In '67 911's and 911S's were up'ed (appropriately) to C-Production or B-Sedan (strange call) Davey Jordan won the championship in Vasek's first C-Production 911S.

In '68 911's, 911S's, and 911L's, ran in C-Production, B-Sedan (for the last year) and 2.0 TransAm.

Even the method SCCA classed cars wasn't consistent; sometimes using engine size to weight, engine power to weight, engine efficiency to weight, body style... and of course reserving the right to disqualify a car's eligibility on general (read political) purposes.

I don't remember VIN's being checked in all this classing...
I would suspect there was some equipment, weights, and even badges that got shifted around...

The TA Ls are listed with the ROW vins because they were optioned cars not a seperate model just as the "TR"s carry ROW T chassis# not a special or seperate number. The USA and Euro L were fitted out differently. Basically the Euro L was trimmed like a standard T and the US L trimmed like an S. The tubs themselves were all the same aside from rear swaybar mounts which were optional on the Euro car and came on the USA car. Both had the rear parcel shelf provision for the safety harnesses. Undercoat was the same on all the cars I have ever seen and deleted only on the factory specials. It was left off not removed and the bottoms and compartments painted semi flat black.

Chuck I know these guys would change the 911S emblems on the rear deck to 911. Jennings did that on a 67S they campaigned and I think the Pacific NW car as well. I think there was a point where the S may not have been allowed (hence the Ls) or were these guys just playing down their machinery?

Don

Conducted a study of weight at some 911L. Have access to the old Swedish registration dokument and where it says how much the car weighed when cars first approved to use the roads. It also contains three pieces of 911 TR cars to see the difference. Maybe it could be anyone of any use.


911L 118107XX Normal car 1150 kg

911L 11810437 Normal car 1140 kg

911L 11810438 Rally car 1120 kg

911L 11810439 Rally car 1120 kg

911L 11810540 Rally car 1100 kg

911L 118107XX Rally car 1100 kg

911TR 11820421 Rally car 1110 kg

911TR 11820422 Rally car 1110 kg

911TR 118204XX Race car 1090 kg

Thomas

If you have a 911L trans am car, your CoA should read like this (pretty much like Rennman said it should):

"This is why the factory race cars for 68 in the USA and likely ROW were the TA Ls and the T Rally models".

Rennman.

Maybe i'm wrong, but I don't believe your catching on to what actually was the debate. It seems now your statement is refering to factory "werks" cars. When prior , I believe. most were refering to race cars made by the factory (special models / standard models ordered with special upgrades / upgrade kits / parts & pieces. Sold to outside parties.

Which is obviously , two differant things.

Even on what would be considered a "factory owned werks" car. Without being there, and knowing every car which was built. Given/loaned to various people to run in various events. I would be hestitant to make an absolute judgement on anything like that. No one can know unless they were there. Or a car outside your claim turns up with bulletproof documentation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by varunan123

I agree with you that's what i thought-til i saw this photo, what would that make this car a ROW or US L?

raj

---

Side markers, turn signal indicator color and sugar scoop headlights are present which tells me its a US 68. No other exterior clues in the picture indicate what the model is. I could take the trim off a T, L or S equally easily, heh heh. Also, it's sporting the passenger visor.

Here is a link to a very detailed photo history of this car in 1968 and 1969 as well as its restoration

http://www.kzmotorsports.com/911L.html

there are photos that include other cars in the series
well worth a look.


Raj

i don't have homologation papers for the 1968L. I do have the Gp3 and Gp 4 for the T/R and the Gp3 was signed on 1 jan 1968.

the 68L may be a bit messy to find as there may be a difference in timing between it being legal as a sedan in the US for Trans-Am and the FIA homologation for Gp 3 or 4

Well, Happy New Year to all.

This is not relating to this discussion directly, but since allowable modifications for some groups have been posted. I'm just wondering about this (changing of pieces from a production car piece standard base material to ones manufactured of a differant material). If this is a question better suited to the other "special build" thread I can move it there if need be. But I thought I'd start here.


This is an interesting provision in group 2 :

"p) Finishing off: all perfecting operations by finishing of machining the original mechanical parts, but not their replacement, except with regard to springs, pistons and camshaft(s) as specified above under sections j and m. The term "Mechanical Parts" covers all those included in the propulsion system, the steering system, the suspension and the braking system as well as accessories necessary for the normal operation of these systems. In other words, provided it is always possible to acsertain unquestionably the origin of the series-production part, it may be rectified, balanced, lightened, reduced, or modified with regard to the shape through tooling, to the exclusion of any addition of material or any mechanical extension or of any process involving a change of the characteristics of the molecular structure or of the surface of the metal."

That leaves alot of leeway for custom work to parts.

But since this sentence :

"to the exclusion of any addition of material or any mechanical extension or of any process involving a change of the characteristics of the molecular structure......of the metal."

(maybe this is a dumb question , but here goes)

Seemingly, this means you could not change the base material of the part ? (titainium rods..etc. vs. steel). So what racing group would titainum rods be allowable ? (or a change in any part , in general , from one base material to another. That was not a standard piece that was in the production models comprising the build number requirement of that group).

None ? So changes like that were for Prototype / group 6 and above only ? If so, did this rule change in later years . So that any type of more specialised piece (lighter / stronger metal ..or whatever) was allowable in lower number groups (group 5 or below) in later years ?


Plus, how would any scrutineers even know if an internal part of a motor or transmission (or anything) was made out of titainum or a differant base material vs. the production piece base material ? I know they could could . But didn't disassembling motors, and other serious teardown or REAL hard scrutiny. Really only occur after a protest by other teams ?

Obviously cheating , in this regard , had to have had occured.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had started to post the link to claudius's 1968 911S sportkit 2 car , earlier in this thread as an example of a 1968 911S model , with a factory competitition type 'kit' added in it's build.

But I was not sure if it qualified in this discussion, as the kit was seemingly named 'sport'kit, not 'rally'kit. And rallykit , was the kit type being most referenced earlier. So I deleted it.

And I didn't know (and still am not understanding) if this car , and the italian one Rennman owned . Were the same car ?

Here is an update on the list for 901-30 engine. It is Porsche 911L 11810508 which competed season 1969. Team Scania Vabis used only one car 1969. Both Waldegard, Ake Andersson competed with the car even Formula 1 driver Ronnie Peterson started in KAK-rally 1970 with the car. I will return with engine number later. It is the only 911L as I have seen with 155 hp in the first registration document. The car has had the same owner since 1982.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...05-2041-39.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w..._redigerad.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...01/BB30201.jpg

Raj,

Waldegard did not drive the Le Mans 1968. But Sten Axelsson drove a Lola T 70 GT 5.0, together with Ulf Norinder.

Saw an ad on a Porsche 911L 11810499 was for sale, Fred Baker car.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...o%201/bigc.jpg
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...o%201/bigh.jpg
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...o%201/bigi.jpg

Porsche 911 L "Lightweight"
European Vintage Car Co.

Farbe Polored
Innenausstattung Black
Lenkung Links
Typ Coupé
Baujahr 1968
Chassis Nr. 118.1.0449
Preis 300.700 EUR
MwSt Nein
Stadt Cave Creek, Arizona
Land

http://www.classicdriver.de/de/find/...lCarID=1812940



Fred Baker ordered this Porsche 911 L in 1968 directly from the factory in order to participate with success to the Trans- Am Championship in 1968 and 1969. Only 15 Porsche 911 L "Lightweight" has been manufactured 4 or 5 came to the USA the rest has been used mostly in Rallies in Europe. This car is a true factory race car and not a street version 911 L dressed up as a race car. In February 1973 Bill Lanphear purchased the 911 L from Century Motors in Orange County. he was told that they raced it in 1970 and the last half of 1971. The car ran in C- production won a 1st place finish with milt Minter in 1970.information about the car. The Porsche has been completely restored. It is also the only known 911 L in the Trans-Am race history who never crashed while racing and the only used car, Porsche has featured in the cover of a Porsche catalog in the fall of 1968.

It is the car featured on the cover of the 1969? Porsche racing brochure (not model line). I do not have mine in front of me so forgive the description but it is a neat cover. If anyone is interested in buying the car I can put you in touch with the owner.

Don

Don, could you contact the owner and see if you can obtain the missing information in the chart above (eng #, etc). The engine build #'s for any of these engines would be very useful to know. There were apparently only 4 built on the aluminum case.

Here are some pictures how the engine of 911L rally car looked like. The images are from the Gulf London Rally 1968 Åke Anderssons car BB 4300 and Lars Nyströms car BB 4151.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...20-1317-18.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...20-1328-39.jpg
Lennart Svensk.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...20-1330-19.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...20-1315-21.jpg

fantastic photos Thomas

Add some pictures to the car for service during a break in Gulf-London rally 1968.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...20-1323-54.jpg
Nysröm/Svensk 911L.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...20-1333-31.jpg
Lars Nyström.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...20-1331-48.jpg

Have looked at a rally 911L (Nystrom rally car). VIN numbers match remained in the radio side, and the old paint tangerine on the instrument panel. Also found foot support for driver`s left foot. Here are a few pictures.




http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...20-1257-15.jpg
1968.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...1/DSC01132.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...1/DSC01136.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...1/DSC01152.jpg

That is awsome. Do you have any other pictures of the car today?

Don

Here are some more pictures that I am ready to put out right now.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...20-1348-18.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...1/DSC01208.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...1/DSC01183.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...1/DSC01222.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...1/DSC01234.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...1/DSC01250.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...1/DSC01256.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...1/DSC01255.jpg

Bump...please.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...21-1214-23.jpg

Porsche 911L photo from 1969.

Does anyone know which Porsche 911 L Robert Stoddard drove in several races in 1970 in Germany.

12.4.1970 Hockenheim [GT2.0/T2.0] no 127 Porsche 911 L Robert Stoddard 8th

14.6.1970 DARM Hockenheim [GT+1.3] no 59 Porsche 911 L Robert Stoddard Moezinger Racing Team ?th

21.6.1970 DARM Mainz-Finthen [GT2.0] Porsche 911 L Robert Stoddard 13th

I was reading a write-up by Symbolic Motors on the ex-Herb Wetanson car (118 1 0429).

They imply that all of these 901/30 motors were built to this spec. Is that true ? (I don't remember all of these items being part of the general spec. on these motors . From this description , a motor like this would be far more powerful than an S) :

"The original engine fitted to this car “388 0008” is one very important clue to the unique nature and race preparation given to this car while being assembled. This was one of just 28 Porsche Factory Type 901/30 FIA homologated Group 2 “Rally” engines built for the 1968 race season. As indicated by the individual engine number this would have sequentially been the 8th example built in this small production run. The type 901/30 engine used the best components from Porsche’s extensive racing parts bin. The main changes were the fitting of titanium connecting rods, fiberglass wrapped cylinder-head studs, cylinder heads with larger intake and exhaust valves, camshafts with a different profile, raised compression ratio pistons, 46mm rather than 40mm triple-choke, Weber, down-draft carburetors, open velocity stacks with rain-shields, separate front-mounted, oil-cooler and a "Sport-Kit” free-flowing set of headers and exhaust resonator."


If not , is it documented that even this example's motor was built to this spec. ?

The 901/30 rally engine was not the spec they are describing. The Sport Purpose manual has an acurate description. 46 Webbers were definitely not used.

Don

Hi Guys
this one is here in the shop. We've been working on it off/ on and hope to have it up and running for Rennsport in October. The car was shown at the Trans Am Reunion at the Petersen Museum November 2009, but it is not a runner yet. More details as we move along with the work.

here are pics

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...Untitled-1.jpg

Update of the Porsche 911L 1968 Racing / Rally cars with engine 901-30. A new car will be added to the list VIN number 11810705 with the engine now 3880027 one the last manufactured engine
type 901-30. The car was equipped as a rally car. And run rallies in Sweden.


http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...13-1812-37.jpg
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...13-1815-20.jpg

In about 1991 I found one of these cars. It had been bought in as a total wreck by Bob LeFluffy of Vancouver with the intention of restoring it but he found it was just in too sad condition for what everyone--including the local Porsche experts--concluded was just a beat up, engineless, old SWB Porsche. But I was not so easily deterred-this car just gave off an "aura of reek" that I could taste.
At the time I was working for a VW/Audi dealer as a service manager so I had access to factory records. I duly sent off the serial number to, would it have been Howard Adams?, who responded with the build sheet for the car showing it was a factory built 1968 rally car!
Bob LeFluffy was a friend and while I could have bought the car off him for $5k as it was I felt that I should tell him of my research... I subsequently offered Bob $20K (!) and was turned down. He eventually sold the car off for less I think when he was in danger of going bankrupt (Remember the downtrend of classic car prices in the early nineties?)
Unfortunately I no longer have a record of the serial number and Bob died a couple of years ago. does anybody have any idea which car this would have been from my poor description? It had come from the Georgia area I learned but the person who had owned it down there would never answer phone calls. It was red, had a floor that looked like the surface of the moon, so it had definately been rallied but had been repainted silver by the time Bob sold it.

I know the car. It still exists. It is a 67 though if it the same car. That is all I can say.

Don

Is it special?:o

If it is the same car the Kardex read "Rally Equiptment" It was not detailed as the 68 cars that I have seen. I do not know the early history of it.

Don

That sounds familiar-there was just the terse statement on the Kardex. Twenty years later and we still don't know more... Where is the car now? Any chance of a photo?
In the early nineties I was obsessed with the ex Patrick McNally car that ran in the Springbok Series in south Africa and then had quite a career in the UK. Chassis 11820884. This car that Bob LeFluf found seemed to be the answer to my dream. It needed a LOT though.

Is this the same car ?
http://www.classicdriver.com/uk/find...lCarID=1828833

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by platas

Is this the same car ?
http://www.classicdriver.com/uk/find...lCarID=1828833

---

Restoration by Andy Prill? Wasn't that the guy who certified the faked RS: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...t-read-19.html

andy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by platas

Is this the same car ?
http://www.classicdriver.com/uk/find...lCarID=1828833

---

Yes, that is the car I lusted after but not the car I found!
I really would like to learn more about the car that was in Vancouver in the early nineties-I have moved several times since then and whatever material I had on it is long gone.

To my great surprise I found a copy of a fax I had sent to Brian Powley, the owner of the car that won the Springbok series, requesting his help in finding the history on "my" car. On this fax (from 1992) I have described the car as 911 #308107 but those last six are the engine number are they not? Rats!!
Does this help identify the car?

Edit: Checked "The Porsche Book" and it is a correct, albeit 1967 chassis number...

Some pictures of the start of the KAK Rally 1969 (Swedish Rally). Four Porsches 911L with rally equipment from the factory and 901/30 engine started at the rally. Waldegard won the rally and Leif Nilsson place 11 and place 19 for Jan Persson, Lars Nyström was breaking the rally. The rally was run for 3 days and the length was 2700 km and 1300 km, was speed runs.
It was extremely cold during rally down to -42 cellsius, but Porsche 911L won the Rally.










http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...-1158-24-1.jpg
VIN 11810439 Engine 3880006





http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...-1159-40-1.jpg
VIN 11810508




http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...-1146-48-1.jpg
VIN 1180540 Engine 3880019



http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...-1150-05-2.jpg
VIN 11810705 Engine 3880027

Dear members,

I am quite new on this specific forum. I am seeking detailed information about the Sport Engine (2.0 L with S parts), the sport kit and the rally kit. The purpose is a 911L 1968 FIA group 2 project.
I am in close link with Porsche classic dpt here in France to get information, but I beleive you would have the info out of the shelf. I will post the data I gather from Porsche as soon as I have them.

All the best.

Xavier

(membership number pending)

Xavier, the document you need is called "Information Regarding PORSCHE Vehicles Used for Sports Purposes"

Also there is an early technical bulletin dated 4/67 "Instructions on the preparation of Porsche cars for participation in competition events"

You might be able to find these documents online, paper versions sometimes come up on eBay.

andy

Thnak you very much Andy. Start seeking.

Have a question if anyone knows why the Certificates and the Kardex 911L rally car 901/30 only stands rally equipment on them. Where they all exact same fitted all rally cars. Have an old fax from Porsche Stuttgart in 1986 where they write how this car was equipped. Unfortunately, the paper has become old and difficult to read. But what I have seen of them American certificates that you get a better specification. Could it be because you equipped race cars a little different. Had Porsche 911L rally cars one exact same rally package?

Another question was that engine 901/30 in other rally / race cars type T and S cars or were all 29 engines to 911L cars, understand that some engines must have been spare engines to some rally / race cars?






http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...17-1003-11.jpg http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...17-0949-10.jpg http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...1/DSC00002.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...-1426-30-1.jpg



Some information about 911 L of Group 2 rally car in 1968, in German but maybe one of our German members may be able to translate.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps0a433494.jpg
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...pse2b9893b.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...psc0e8cb41.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...pse4ed377c.jpg

From Christophorus no 88 September 1967.

Porsche 911L 1968 901/30 Racing/Rally car sold at Goodings Auction in Monterey for $583,000.

VIN 11810486
Eng 3880009


http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1968-porsche-911-l/

http://www.canepa.com/inventory/race...orsche%20911L/
http://www.finecars.cc/en/detail/car/24584/index.html

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps8c904dcb.jpg

Some of you are aware of my fascination for the 911 L "Lightweight" 1968 Grp2
I have not seen these pictures before on the Sreg. They are from Vintage Stuttgart on FB. There are some nice comments from Tony Adamowicz

"the first pic is Bruce Jennings / Herb Wetanson in no. 18 and Bob Bailey in no 22 Porsche 911 light weights battling out on the front straight of 1968 Lime Rock trans am.under 2 liter"
Attachment 262678

"the MR no.7 under two liter winner battling it out with Mark Donahue's Penske Camaro on the front straight of Lime Rock park 1968 trans am race. The MR no 7 was often in the mix of the five liter TA cars. That was a great season winning Six out of 10 races and finishing 2nd in two others, virtually dominating under two series. The SCCA rules allowed removal of rear bumpers on no.7 which aided in engine/ trans axle removal for the many gear changes, also aided in top speed with out rear bumper drag / weight. Eventually others caught on to doing the same"
Attachment 262679

"no7 under 2 liter trans am leader Milestone Racing driver Tony Adamowicz"
Attachment 262680

nice pictures

some more from the same source :D
Attachment 262708Attachment 262709Attachment 262710

I do have a 68 S european version with Rally equipment from the factory. Is there really a increase in value on it because it is a rally? Or is just a nice optioned
normal car? Thanks

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vivancos9263

I do have a 68 S european version with Rally equipment from the factory. Is there really a increase in value on it because it is a rally? Or is just a nice optioned
normal car? Thanks

---

Definite increase in value with a factory rallye kit...please post more, perhaps in your own thread.

This would defintly re-open the can....

I definitely don't want to re-open any can. I'll start another thread with some more info. Thanks

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vivancos9263

I definitely don't want to re-open any can. I'll start another thread with some more info. Thanks

---

This would be more benificial for you and you car - will be very insteresting to see this car and whcih options are in :D.
Look forward to this.

Thanks.
Xavier

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps9e7a9d56.jpg

Just wonder :

a) Is the 1969 FIA group 2 (sedan) homologation only valid in the USA for the 1968 normale and the L models ? (Rules changed in 1970, I beleive the 911 Normale and L could not be in homologated in Group 1 and 2 anymore after 1969- the T and the S remained Group 3 and 4 - Not to mention the Normale and L homologated within the 1969 rules in group 1 and 2 could compete until 1971, I think)


b) Does any one get the homologation sheets for group2 1969 911 Normale and L?


Edit : According to the "Information Regarding Porsche Vehicules Used for Sports Purposes 1968", the 911 normale and the L are FIA Touring Car Group 2. However within the Homologated form downloaded from the FIA website, I cannot find the 911 L being homolagted group2 even with USA tag. The only 911 homologated in group 2 is written as :

Homologation form:1451 / group:2 / model:Porsche 911 / displ :1991 / homologation date :01.01.1966

The only L homologated is a Targa and not in group 2 !
Homologation form:579 / group 3 / model:Porsche 911 L Targa / displ :1991 / homologation date 01.01.1968.

Please help me sorting this out !

All the best.
Xavier

At last another 911L 1968 racing / rally with 901-30 engine found after many years in a garage. It was found in Finland. It was delivered new to AAW Racing Team in Finland well known Porsche team of 60-70 century in Finland, where the well-known racing driver Leo Kinnunen run for. VIN numer is 11810514. The car is currently located in the United States at the Porsche company PORsport.com.

Link to car http://www.porsport.com/68_lightweight

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...psfc9ff20a.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...pse6d7c265.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...psa03279a6.jpg

I like to kid Don that he has a lucky horseshoe up his butt, but now I'm beginning to think it's a magnet for historically important SWB 911s instead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ibmiked

I like to kid Don that he has a lucky horseshoe up his butt, but now I'm beginning to think it's a magnet for historically important SWB 911s instead.

---

I'm sure the magnet helps, but you probably know better than anyone he certainly works hard to make his "luck" happen.

Photo of the Finnish 911L with 901-30 engine VIN 11810514 from a rally in Finland.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps1c31c4e3.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...psb9c351fa.jpg

Willi Kauhsen and Helmut Kelleners 24 hours at SPA 1968 where do would have competed with a 911L, anybody know if there is a 911L and maybe VIN number?

Hello
Winter photo - Seems to be mr AAW him self driving his personal car, Artic rally -70 ?
hopo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bill Simmeth

I'm sure the magnet helps, but you probably know better than anyone he certainly works hard to make his "luck" happen.

---

Their is another saying... "the harder you work the luckier you are"

Hello Gentlemen, I am very new here and hoping to get some information from those of you that are much more knowledgeable on this subject then I.
I have Bob Bailey's 911L at my shop. He does not plan on racing it anymore and would like to bring the car closer to how it was when he got it in '68. It has been 46 years and a lot of changes over that time. Does any of you have some good info/pictures of how the interior would have looked when he took delivery? I know some of the basics like seat, door panels and roll bar. Any factual info on any part of the car would be much appreciated. Thanks. Jason

Looked in my binder that is from the 60's with service announcement mm for Porsche workshops in Sweden comes from Porsche's headquarters in Södertälje. There is a code for engine type designations. And at the bottom of the page you can see the 901/30 engine
6 cyl 150 HP Racing Engine with construction elements from type 901/06 made ​​since July 1967

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...psa1a29620.jpghttp://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps862a6c50.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps9046bc68.jpghttp://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...psd08e0240.jpg

bonjour Xavier,
contactez moi au 0611916915 si vous cherchez encore (et toujours) les pièces nécessaires à la réalisation de votre projet.

cordialement,
Jean-Dominique.

Update of the list, two cars are added.


http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps7aa3a4a4.jpg

Auction at Porsche 911L 1968 John Kelly racing car 11810486 with 901-30 engine sold for $583,000 at Pebble Beach 18-Aug-2013.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCNeZkSaO28



http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps564f8ff3.jpg

Just a few short years into Porsche’s production of the 911, cars were appearing at all sorts of racing venues around the globe. The desire from private drivers to acquire specialty 911s for racing purposes was growing. To answer the influx of requests for a competition model, in 1968 Porsche developed a lightweight, racing 911 L specially fitted with the 901/30 engine. Factory records indicate 28 such engine numbers (3880001–3880028) although there is no definitive knowledge of how many cars were built. Today, just nine of these special 911 Ls are recorded, and fewer thought to remain.
Each of these competition 911 Ls was a European-specification L model outfitted with the rally kit, the sport kit 2, a roll bar, a limited-slip differential, lowered Koni suspension, a leather-covered steering wheel, and “Porsche” side script. Furthermore, the cars were void of sound deadening and undercoating and were otherwise trimmed like a 912. Final delivery specifications varied from car to car, based on expected use and ultimately the buyer’s requests.









This car.

In October 1967, John Kelly received a Western Union telegram from Porsche of America stating, “Porsche Factory offered us a limited number of modified 911 R Racing car with 210 DIN HP, light body and other racing features. Weight approx 850 kg. Price ex factory US dollar 11,250 plus landed cost expense. If interested please call Monday since cars have to be ordered for December production.”
Little more was needed and John Kelly, an SCCA champion familiar with Porsche’s on-track capability, placed an order for one of these special race-built 911s. The Kardex and certificate of authenticity confirm that “0486” was fitted with 901/30 engine 3880009, a rally kit, a limited-slip differential, a sport kit for “911 L,” a leather steering wheel, a roll bar, low-consistency suspension, Porsche lettering left and right, and a special transmission (9282017) for “race cars on airfields.” Invoiced through Heishman Porsche Audi of Arlington, Virginia, Kelly took delivery of his new, Tangerine 911 in March 1968.
Kelly’s intent, no doubt, was to race the 911, but shortly after taking delivery of the car he was hired by Triumph to race TR4s in Group 44 competition. Kelly decided to use the 911 as a daily driver and had it road registered. In 1969, however, Kelly received the opportunity to put the Porsche to competitive use at Marlboro for the Refrigerator Bowl. The car was driven to the event with time for little more than applying race numbers before the green flag dropped. By the second lap the 911 was in the lead, and from there won handily.
For more than a decade, the 911 L remained a driver until finding retirement in Kelly’s garage. In the 1990s, Kelly’s wife Susann Miller caught the vintage racing bug and had the 911 prepped for racing, which included upgrading the original engine to 2.5-liter specifications. The Porsche was raced until 2005, per the logbooks that accompany the car. Shortly after, the car was sold and subsequently restored by Porsche specialists Canepa Design.
Given the 911’s long-term ownership and minimal racing career, it stands as an exceptionally correct and original example, worthy of restoration. The original engine was completely re-manufactured with ported and flowed heads, Carrillo rods, special factory rally cams, proper Porsche rain hats, and factory sport kit megaphone exhaust. All glass, lights, and trim fitted were Porsche NOS parts. The car was finished with “Deep Six” and “Seven” R wheels, R seats, and the 100-liter fuel tank. Furthermore, the car is very well documented with a certificate of authenticity, a copy of the Kardex, a copy of the telegram to Kelly, and the original 911 L owner’s manual, and dealer directory.
In 2008, the car was sold to a private California collector with a significant selection of early 911s. The car has been expertly maintained since and used sportingly as a healthy road car. The Porsche remains beautifully presented in its tangerine finish and has a period-correct appearance befitting the special factory-prepared car. Given the rarity of the competition 911 L and its brethren, the 911 R and 911 S/T, this is an opportunity to own one of the finer examples of the early racing 911.

Dear all,

Do you know who owns 11810482 ?

BTW, has anyone aware of any FIA homologation sheet for these cars in group 2 ?

Cheers
Xavier

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brakekiller

Just wonder :

a) Is the 1969 FIA group 2 (sedan) homologation only valid in the USA for the 1968 normale and the L models ? (Rules changed in 1970, I beleive the 911 Normale and L could not be in homologated in Group 1 and 2 anymore after 1969- the T and the S remained Group 3 and 4 - Not to mention the Normale and L homologated within the 1969 rules in group 1 and 2 could compete until 1971, I think)


b) Does any one get the homologation sheets for group2 1969 911 Normale and L?


Edit : According to the "Information Regarding Porsche Vehicules Used for Sports Purposes 1968", the 911 normale and the L are FIA Touring Car Group 2. However within the Homologated form downloaded from the FIA website, I cannot find the 911 L being homolagted group2 even with USA tag. The only 911 homologated in group 2 is written as :

Homologation form:1451 / group:2 / model:Porsche 911 / displ :1991 / homologation date :01.01.1966

The only L homologated is a Targa and not in group 2 !
Homologation form:579 / group 3 / model:Porsche 911 L Targa / displ :1991 / homologation date 01.01.1968.

Please help me sorting this out !

All the best.
Xavier

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Noone can help me in the above topic ? :(

Xavier

I have this in my database (it is a part of a larger piece on 911 homologation)
it came from this board a while ago and MAY have been originally written by Chris Seven but i dont have the reference recorded.
" Between 1966 and 1969, Group 5 cars were specially modified Touring Cars (Touring in this context means a Saloon car). Only cars homologated into Group 2 could run in Group 5 during this period.

If you modify a Group 3 Grand Touring cars within certain permitted criteria than it becomes a Group 4 car, which is the category that would have been used for the T/R.

The 911 was also and unusually homologated as a Touring Car into Group 2 using Homologation Form 1451 on 01-01-1966. The 911S and 911L were included as extensions to this basic form. This is why Porsche refer to Group 5 in the context of the 911S and 911L.

It is this homologation that allowed Vic Elford to contest the British Saloon car Championship in a factory 911 much to the disgust of regular saloon competitors using cars such as the Lotus Cortina.

Group 5 was changed significantly in 1970 and was used to redefine many Group 4 cars. It became a Sports Car Homologation with a maximum engine capacity of 5.0 litres and a minimum build of 25 cars - The most famous Group 5 car being the 917."


that seems to tie in with what you have in the edit part but I dont have anything other than this. I do not believe that it was a "USA thing". I think it was global as it was a FIA thing. I am certain that cars were raced out here in Australia using the same rules

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HughH

Xavier

I have this in my database (it is a part of a larger piece on 911 homologation)
it came from this board a while ago and MAY have been originally written by Chris Seven but i dont have the reference recorded.
" Between 1966 and 1969, Group 5 cars were specially modified Touring Cars (Touring in this context means a Saloon car). Only cars homologated into Group 2 could run in Group 5 during this period.

If you modify a Group 3 Grand Touring cars within certain permitted criteria than it becomes a Group 4 car, which is the category that would have been used for the T/R.

The 911 was also and unusually homologated as a Touring Car into Group 2 using Homologation Form 1451 on 01-01-1966. The 911S and 911L were included as extensions to this basic form. This is why Porsche refer to Group 5 in the context of the 911S and 911L.

It is this homologation that allowed Vic Elford to contest the British Saloon car Championship in a factory 911 much to the disgust of regular saloon competitors using cars such as the Lotus Cortina.

Group 5 was changed significantly in 1970 and was used to redefine many Group 4 cars. It became a Sports Car Homologation with a maximum engine capacity of 5.0 litres and a minimum build of 25 cars - The most famous Group 5 car being the 917."


that seems to tie in with what you have in the edit part but I dont have anything other than this. I do not believe that it was a "USA thing". I think it was global as it was a FIA thing. I am certain that cars were raced out here in Australia using the same rules

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Hugh, you are a star ! I need to seek Fia Form 1451 from 1966 now.
right after your kind reply, I searched for 1451 and found an old Sreg thread. http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...p/t-56864.html which is the one you seem to refer to.

Thank you this is another step in my quest of these wonderful racing cars.
Xavier

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps47c9845f.jpg

Porsche 911L VIN 11810705 Jan Persson/Gunnar Dahlström SMK Uppsala Sweden at rally 1968.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps0ec60acb.jpg[/URL]

Jan Persson/Gunnar Dahlström 911 L Rally Roslagsvalsen 1969 Sweden.

The first owner Jan Persson of the Porshe 911L Vin 11810705 901/30 is out and try his new rally car autumn 1968. Has received the photo from his private albums.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps2cad3689.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rennman

I just dug up a Road and Track article from 1968 that mentions that THREE of these cars were ordered from the Southern California Porsche Distributor at the same time, one for Alan Johnson to race for Don Burns, one for Vasek Polak and one for Don Pike. Only the Pike car is known. Does anyone have any leads on the Burns or Vasek cars?? Interestingly the article which is about Alan Johnson's 67S shows the super rare Speedster type buckets in Alan's 67. Also these cars weighed 2,060 vs 2,250 for a standard car.

Don

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Does anyone has any VIN numbers info in regards of these three cars. According to my own ( very limited in resources ) research and comparing ( unofficial ) built sheet (Kardex) data of such order car - MY 1968 Porsche 911T/R fits the bill.
I made remarks in red:

… " Originally Posted by jluetjen View Post
I think some of the confusion comes about because Porsche's 911 competition offerings in the late '60's was more of a spectrum then a series of models. The ones that I've heard/read about or seen are as follows. (My apologies Warren for glossing over the details, feel free to expand on or correct what I've written)

911 T/R - Similar to an ST, but with a 2.2 liter engine. Officially a T set-up for rallying. Being MY68 911TR's had 2.0 911S ( #408***) motor. Unless it was updated to Carrera 906 Specs engine at Factory

Anyway, for '68, Johnson's CP team ordered a new 911, this time with the right options from the factory. It was an S with the following options:

9108 - Dunlop SP tires
9551 - Rally kit 911S
9556 - Sport kit II 911S
9592 - Airport ratios 901/52 actually 901/52 ( i think) is HILL CLIMB ratio
9574 - Limited slip
9499 - 100 liter fuel tank
9541 - Delete undercoating
9542 - Delete sound deadening material
9535 - Roll bar
9124 - No front bumpber horns
9551 - Racing seats
(no number) - Special engine preparation to group 3 standards. Lower car.

Invoice price: 6637.42
Weight: 2060 lbs.


Apparently 3 such cars were ordered that year; One for Alan to run for Don Burns Volkswagen, one for Vasek Polak aand one to be raced in the Trans-Am series by Don Pike. " end of quote.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gytis Kupinas

Does anyone has any VIN numbers info in regards of these three cars. According to my own ( very limited in resources ) research and comparing ( unofficial ) built sheet (Kardex) data of such order car - MY 1968 Porsche 911T/R fits the bill.
I made remarks in red:

… " Originally Posted by jluetjen View Post
I think some of the confusion comes about because Porsche's 911 competition offerings in the late '60's was more of a spectrum then a series of models. The ones that I've heard/read about or seen are as follows. (My apologies Warren for glossing over the details, feel free to expand on or correct what I've written)

911 T/R - Similar to an ST, but with a 2.2 liter engine. Officially a T set-up for rallying. Being MY68 911TR's had 2.0 911S ( #408***) motor. Unless it was updated to Carrera 906 Specs engine at Factory

Anyway, for '68, Johnson's CP team ordered a new 911, this time with the right options from the factory. It was an S with the following options:

9108 - Dunlop SP tires
9551 - Rally kit 911S
9556 - Sport kit II 911S
9592 - Airport ratios 901/52 actually 901/52 ( i think) is HILL CLIMB ratio
9574 - Limited slip
9499 - 100 liter fuel tank
9541 - Delete undercoating
9542 - Delete sound deadening material
9535 - Roll bar
9124 - No front bumpber horns
9551 - Racing seats
(no number) - Special engine preparation to group 3 standards. Lower car.

Invoice price: 6637.42
Weight: 2060 lbs.
These are exact Specs for my 1968 911TR delivered to VW Pacific of Culvert City CA

Apparently 3 such cars were ordered that year; One for Alan to run for Don Burns Volkswagen, one for Vasek Polak aand one to be raced in the Trans-Am series by Don Pike. " end of quote.

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Show off G. :p

(am jaleaous)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John Binion

Rick (Longranger) took a few pics of mine at the Werks reunion and posted to the accompanying thread (link below). Starts at post 161. Regarding the other two, I believe Don A. (Rennman here) might know what happened to the Pike car.

http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...e-union/page17

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That is pretty awesome and congratulations, and jealous, and happy for you. That is very sweet car.

One thing if I may . Remark " one of three LEGALLY imported 911 S..." . I thought T was the one not offered in USA at the time and being available only in RACE CAR option aka TR.
Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

So according to this : Vasek S with options and Don Pike TR are known. What about Don Burns TR. Do anyone have as complete documentation on DP 911TR as you have on yours aka Vasek car ?

inspiring car right there!

[QUOTE=John Binion;775157]Thank you Gytis. It's a fun car and likes to run. Took it out for a run this past Sunday with some other Porsche folks and ended up using 90% of that 100l tank (234 miles) :). It didn't miss a beat./QUOTE]
I had the pleasure of meeting John and looking over his car last Sunday- the car is just incredible to behold. And John is a perfectly nice guy too !

Quote:

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inspiring car right there!

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It's true, it's a wonderful car....

Also pretty inspiring driver as well......... ;)

- Lunch with Davey and Norma Jordan up in Running Springs last month........

Davey said they just might get a little motor home and tour the U.S. like they did when racing his Eagle F/5000 over forty years ago... :)

Great pic Chuck. I do hope the Jordans are doing well. His autographed pic that you helped facilitate stays in my glovebox for luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chuck Miller

It's true, it's a wonderful car....

Also pretty inspiring driver as well......... ;)

- Lunch with Davey and Norma Jordan up in Running Springs last month........

Davey said they just might get a little motor home and tour the U.S. like they did when racing his Eagle F/5000 over forty years ago... :)

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Of the three cars mentioned in the old Road and Track article two now are accounted for. None of them were 911T Rally cars. The Pike car is actually a 911L TA not an S as the article describes, and the Vasek car now owned by John. Alan Johnson had an identical car to the Vasek car. There is a picture in a 68' Christo that shows Alan sitting in his Light Ivory 68S Rally Kit car.

There are no official lists that I know of as these cars were built in the normal chassis number ranges.

Don

[QUOTE=John Binion;775400]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aldo

T We had a friendly argument on who had the loudest pipes :)

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Did you have a sound test too? I can tell you that no matter the dB level that sound quality is much more pleasing in that car.

Updating the list for VIN number 11810604.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps8f4d7a32.jpg

Don't suppose anyone has seen one of these motors for sale lately? I know a member here who is looking for a proper motor for his 68L rally car...

I have been trying to find out data for the 911 L race models and in particular the 1968 model year for ages. This thread is fantastic and still going.

In the early days of 911 motorsport Porsche encouraged private teams to race the 911 in order to broaden the competition base of the model. These SWB L's and T/R's are an example of an era when winning races was more important than matching numbers! Competition cars often had engines swapped or upgraded, indeed the whole idea behind the 911 design was that racing engines were fully interchangeable with the standard engines.

Apart from the many 911s raced in stock form, some T models had S or R derived engines, some L models had special race engines, the 1967 and 1968 R was based on the standard coupe which was given a Carrera 6 engine and lightened substantially. Rally kits and S upgrades were variously fitted, many teams ordering parts and doing the work themselves. These early competition cars generally came from the standard production series of road models and as such were not always designated. A fascinating story of a racing led car manufacturer during the glorious years of 1967 and 1968.

The base model 911 ran from the start of production and was extended for one year only in A series form in the US for 1968. Apart from being the base of the 911 R it was homologated to Group 2 in its own right (like the 911L whose 911/14 engine it shared). The base 911 had success in competition and rallying and many cars were rallied in stock form right from the start. One early SWB car was driven from the Paris Porsche concessionaire, raced at Le Mans 24, coming 12th, and then driven back to Paris. "Race on Sunday sell on Monday".

(The 911 and 911L were homologated to Group 2 touring, while the T and S were homologated into Group 3 (GT). Further complicating things the FIA approved of certain S components such as Camshafts carburetors and pistons for the Group 2 911/911L.

Therefore from 1967 to the end of 1969 the Porsche 911 was raced in just about every category you went to see on a Sunday afternoon. (Ref: Michael Cotton - Porsche 911 and derivatives.)

a cool lil side note is that the Wetson/Wetanson connection still lives on today as he is still racing in the vintage world...and he is still quick. He drives many marques...AM, Prancing Horse...etc etc etc. His stable is fantastic...and they are used!

Fast food and now BBQ places........income not a big problem...lol

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...psb7zwempa.jpg

Porsche 911 L 1968 VIN 11810540 engine number 3880019

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Soterik

My dad with 11810604 when it was new!, and the 2nd pic was when we found it again and were picking it up to take back home (he's 91 in the pic..)

Note the luggage rack in the trunk, and the factory luggage sitting in front of the car.

Thankfully the original 901-30 engine #3880025 is still in the car. Lucky me!

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It would be nice for members to read where you found it and a picture of the engine code (/30 ) would be cool to see as well.

Richard

Attachment 364216Attachment 364213Attachment 364211Attachment 364212
Porsche 911L rally cars, photo from 1968-69.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brakekiller

Do you know who owns 11810482? ...Xavier

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I rebuilt the replacement engine & transmission to 11810482 several years ago for Michael Scott, who then sold the car back to Bob Bailey.
The original drivetrain was long gone, so we sourced a '68 S engine core (4080910) and '68 L transmission core for the car.

Here is a recent Excellence article on the car. It credits me for the engine build (page 2), but I built the transmission as well...
http://www.excellence-mag.com/issues...t#.Vps_v8vSmUk

Attachment 364287

1968 Bridgehampton Trans-Am, Bob Bailey and Herb Wetanson (aka Wetson)...
Attachment 364288

Jon B.
Vista, CA

Attachment 389186

Chassinumber?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thomas lundeval

Updating the list for VIN number 11810604.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps8f4d7a32.jpg

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VIN numbers for search purposes...

11810177
11810429
11810438
11810439
11810449
11810482
11810486
11810508
11810514
11810540
11810604
11810705

.....Bump....

So annoying that a thread like this has been stripped of an enormous amount of info because some people just couldn’t get along! I see a dozen references to posts by ‘raj’ and don’t see any of the actual posts because apparently he deleted them all.

Found many pics on the Porsport.com web site - just did a print screen of the old ones.
Attachment 454348Attachment 454349Attachment 454350Attachment 454351

Attachment 454352Attachment 454353

Bonsoir,

Any interior pics of the race/transam interior please? Special focus on the rollcage and harness.

Cheers
X

And another missing one (w/ a /30 engine). Has it's original matching engine!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1968-Porsch...rdt=true&rt=nc

Richard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by preS

And another missing one (w/ a /30 engine). Has it's original matching engine!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1968-Porsch...rdt=true&rt=nc

Richard

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This car has been rescued and is now at my hangar. This has turned out to be a great find. It was built with Rally equipment, Sport kit, big tank, 840 watt alternator, front skid plate, heated rear window and rear wiper. There are front tow tabs, a hand held spot light socket on the dash and rolled rear quarter. It also has a set of four unpolished raw Fuchs wheels from the rally department. It is mostly complete and does still have the original engine. It has been sitting for a very loooong time. As much as I would love to add it to my small collection with four restorations of my own going I will sell it. There are a few images at http://www.Porsport.com Please contact me directly.

After buying this last Rally car I have some renewed interest in the topic and I thought I would write something not based on club or world politics ie what we are really here for. In rereading this thread there are some things I have learned since we first started talking about these neat old cars. 68S Rally cars do exist after all however all I have seen were built in 67. The T rally or T/R was the group 3 replacement for the 1968 season. If someone has a 1968 build S Rally that would be cool to see.

Another observation in on US cars the Kardex is written Rally Kit, on Euro cars it is Rally equipment. Is there more to the Euro option? If not why would it be listed differently?

Great find Don.......and yes refreshing to read about CARS again!

I was about to suggest that the different terminology might be that on the Euro cars it could be fitted at build whilst US cars perhaps could not be imported like that so the parts had to come as a 'kit', however, I then checked and totally destroyed my own argument because the T/R I had was a factory collection by a British guy (ordered by the Porsche East African agent Gordon Crow) and on the Kardex in this case it was also called 'Rallye-Kit' !

I do believe we have to be careful in viewing these period documents and (perhaps) reading too much into the terminology, I love all this research but have found myself guilty in the past of assuming too much based on documentation, for example as I had the T/R restored we found a number of changes that the Kardex never captured. It is also worth remembering that the 'Rally-Kit' could also be the 'Sport-Kit I' and/or 'Sport-Kit II' etc.....

correct. The Drs car was sent back to racing division after it was at dealership as an s to be fitted for rally packages plus some more. Not sure if the r engine made it in to the car but rest did in time for racing before his r arrived.

I figured this would appeal to some of the rally freaks in here :)

https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...18#post1093918

901/30 Engine

Attachment 551313

In Eric's post #48 there is reference to Recaro or Bucket Seats as an option. Giving that the 1968 option list would have been for cars built from the last 1/4 of 1967 what Bucket Seats would have been offered.

Attachment 551327

The Early Fibreglass (GRP) Scheel seats were manufactured from my research from 1965 - 1968 and weighed 5.2kg without rails.

Attachment 551328

Does anyone have any period photos of the Bucket Seats that were available in 1968 as per the Porsche List Eric provided.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NZVW

In Eric's post #48 there is reference to Recaro or Bucket Seats as an option. Giving that the 1968 option list would have been for cars built from the last 1/4 of 1967 what Bucket Seats would have been offered.

Attachment 551327

The Early Fibreglass (GRP) Scheel seats were manufactured from my research from 1965 - 1968 and weighed 5.2kg without rails.

Attachment 551328

Does anyone have any period photos of the Bucket Seats that were available in 1968 as per the Porsche List Eric provided.

Any help would be much appreciated.

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Mark,

I couldn't find any photos of bucket seats in the period photos I've collected for 1968 Sports Purpose cars.

-Eric

Attachment 551415
11820433 TR

Attachment 551414
11820807 TR

Here are a couple from the Motorsportimages site for 1968 rallies showing slivers of seats

-Eric (Gratz)

Here's two photos of the seat in my '67. This is the steel GT/Ferrari seat that could be ordered. I'm not sure if this seat was still around 1968.

John


Attachment 551538

Attachment 551539

Please say that you will make a few sets of these seats....

Here in the Homeland I'd probably take the one from https://reutter-karosserie.de/de/Int...itzschale.html
and mod the feet (on rare occasions you're able to get a genuine one for less than 2k)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fap901

ARRC NOVEMBER 1968, B SEDAN race : Don PIKE is leading Alan JOHNSON' s DON BURN car
http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/7...rc11685.th.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

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Hi Eric,

Here are two more photos. This is an original one for the passenger side that I’m not using. The fabric is corduroy and the back is the same as the carpet in a standard 911.

John

Attachment 551551

Attachment 551552

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rennman

In rereading this thread there are some things I have learned since we first started talking about these neat old cars. 68S Rally cars do exist after all however all I have seen were built in 67. The T rally or T/R was the group 3 replacement for the 1968 season. If someone has a 1968 build S Rally that would be cool to see.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rennman

I just dug up a Road and Track article from 1968 that mentions that THREE of these cars were ordered from the Southern California Porsche Distributor at the same time, one for Alan Johnson to race for Don Burns, one for Vasek Polak and one for Don Pike. Only the Pike car is known. Does anyone have any leads on the Burns or Vasek cars??

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To follow up on Rennman’s prior posts (page 13&15), and also on the beginning posts (page 2) inquiring about the Don Burns 911, the Don Burns 1968 911 has been identified (of course by Rennman), and it is a 68S Rally Kit 911 that was built in 1967. You can view a picture of it on his site at http://www.Porsport.com

Here is a copy of the Kardex:
Attachment 563756
Attachment 563757
Attachment 563758
Attachment 563759
Attachment 563760