New reproducton parts vs original

There are a number of hard to find parts which are now being reproduced very accurately at what would seem reasonable prices. I have quite a few parts which i know to be original eg muffler skirt, 67S chrome armrest caps, pudenz fuse packs etc.
Are these parts now less desirable than their new repros, more desirable or equally desirable? Are they worth more or less or the same as repro items?
Is it even worth mentioning they are original?
In twenty years how are we going to keep track of the date of manufacture, 1973 or 2011, of these items on our cars? Will it matter?
Does the date of manufacture of parts such as these on our cars affect the value of the car? Will we turn our noses up at these parts in the future like we do now on say replica Fuchs?
Appreciate your thoughts

Regards
Mike

I was wondering the same thing the other day. how will collectors in the future (say 20, 30, 40 years from now) identify distinguishing features to be able to tell repro from original. not thinking necessarily from price (buy and sell) but also for museum or collection purposes.

If they are truly replicas then I don't have a problem with this if we are talking about trim and mechanical parts. If the intent is to defraud then I have a problem with that.

I don't think anyone is trying to defraud on the parts I am thinking of.
There are a lot of knowledgeable people on this and other forums who are experts in pointing out genuine parts on our cars (particularly cars for sale) and they can describe minutia including part numbers, date stamps, makers marks and other original features which seem to matter a great deal. I don't know if this is 'showing off' knowledge or a genuine attempt to point out what is an original piece or not. The makers mark and date stamp of certain parts seem to matter a great deal NOW and I just wonder if the producers of today's reproduction parts would be proud enough of their work to put a makers stamp and date code on their pieces to help future generations decode what is original or repro. After all we are very quick to say 'that piece is not original to that car because it has the wrong date stamp' just now. Why not carry on the tradition?

Regards
Mike

in my case i wasnt talking about defrauding either.. i was questioning how will collectors and historians be able to tell the difference for collections and restorations using all original items -especially since they are being made with such accuracy these days

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I just wonder if the producers of today's reproduction parts would be proud enough of their work to put a makers stamp and date code on their pieces to help future generations decode what is original or repro.

Regards
Mike

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just what i plan to do with my parts as i never want them palmed off as original.

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Originally Posted by 210bhp

After all we are very quick to say 'that piece is not original to that car because it has the wrong date stamp' just now. Why not carry on the tradition?

Regards
Mike

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Does anyone have insight into the 356 world? It seems that they have been using repops for far longer now. Not having any 356 experience, I'd venture the 911 world won't be affected any differently. There will still be those that can differentiate original from even the best repops. In 100 years, who knows....

Raj,

People keep teeling me to take the original front and rear hoods off my GT and put after market stuff on...but I just can't do it. Just call me crazy!

John

Let's start to split a few hairs here if only to delve deeper into this.

On the surface I believe that the original parts still matter to those that want them, particularly NOS parts. I was disapointed when the first Cibie hood lights came out as I had quite a stock of originals. However I have come to find that these lights are still worth quite a bit to those who want the originals. There is also a bit of difference between OE and the repro's. I bought a pair of the repro's and still kept my originals.

In terms of other items, we have to keep in mind what we term original. The Pudenz fuse pack was mentioned. Well that item was available from the original manufacturer right up till the mid 90's, went away till Carl made his, and now actually you can buy the original once again. So... what "original" one do you have Mike? Did you buy your car new and it came in the tool kit pouch, or was it in the car when you bought it. Do you really know where it came from or are you guessing? Could it have been purchased in the early 90's and found it's way into your car?

Do you all know that there was a reproduction of the key pouch that Carl redid (not picking on Carl here at all, he's done a gorgeous job on all his items and has done one for me as well that's not yet to market... so it's just a co-incidence)? Yup, the repop of the original key pouch was done in the late 70's... so perhaps the NOS one you bought was just one of those repops.

There was a repop of the 380mm steering wheel as well in the 70's.

Let's go a bit further. The concern here appears to be the bits that bolt on. Well, how about the sheet metal parts that get used to fix all of our cars. If we don't get an NOS part from Emory or somebody else like Freisinger, then we get it from Stoddard or Restoration Design. Is there "any" concerns on those parts, or do we discount that and weld them in "correctly" so that you can see the difference from OEM, put the original type Schutz on it.. and then stick "only OEM" parts back on the car and call it original? We all raved about Alan (Canford Classics) restoration of a car that went back down to almost the vin plate and then back up. IF he used only OEM trim bits, then what is that car? Not picking on Alan, I'd own that car in a heartbeat if I could afford it... it's essentially a new car built by one of the best!

How about still a bit further. If you restore an original horn grill, fender, etc, then what do you have? The horn grill was dechromed.. the pits welded in and then filed back down over and over, and then it's replated with copper and then buffed over and over and then finally gets a nickel layer and then chrome. Is that an original part? Really?

I understand the Hella 128 fog lights were repopped using original tooling. The chrome is crappy now vs the old old original ones, but what do we get to call those? Are they original?

I'm going to go further. If Porsche buys a "new" part from a subcontractor, then it's now OEM right? It then gets a Porsche part number, the old original one. Is that part now considered an original one? Do YOU know if it's manufactured by the same guy from back in the day?... or is it someone like me who Porsche has accepted a new part from and slapped the part number on. If Stoddard repops a part on their own... is that original? They get to put an original part number on it...they are "Porsche". How do you know if it's old stock that you or they "found", or a repop.

From my experience in the 356 world, it's kinda shaky. There's the obvious repops, and then if you buy really good stuff you're just happy to get a very nice part, and hope that it's original. Depends also on who you buy it from to an extent, though there's plenty of parts suppliers who will be happy to tell you that "yes" it's correct for your car, and it's original. There was many parts repopped in the 80's and 90's that went away and were never redone again, like the tenax mounted stone guards, big gas tanks, idiot lights for pre-A's etc. They were very well done. Doubtful that many of us (or anyone) could tell the difference there.

Just a bunch of questions and observations...

Oh, and as far as the 67S door trigger end caps.. I'll be happy to put a manufacturers stamp on it, just tell me where the original one is on it and I'll put mine right there.... Ok, there's no place to do it, so I can't. Perhaps I shouldn't make stuff that can't be trademarked with AF on it?

Eric

I am new to all of this and trying to follow and understand this discussion. I have a 1973 911S in all original condition. My husband ordered the car in 1973 and I have all the original paperwork, etc. I want to keep this car and keep it as original as possible. Could someone please explain the abbreviations and acronyms to me? I know I am asking a lot ... NOS, OE, PET, OEM, JMO, nia.

I need to replace the original door, trunk, and headlight seals this winter. I need to research the seals, installation, etc. I need to understand what I am doing and know the difference between original, reproduction, etc. It is important to me to get this right and feel comfortable with the process.

Thanks!

There is alot of misuse of terms. I remember in the 70s when Porsche parts came in a box marked " ORIGINAL-GENUINE". I explained many times that original would be the same as delivered and genuine would only mean it came from Porsche, not necessarly the original fittment.
Here is my start to explain the acronyms.
OE=original equiptment -- self explainatory, except the factory had the right to use other suppliers and versions, but they usually are the same.
OEM=Original equiptment manufacturer--built by the same supplier but not necessarily the same part as delivered. ie Fuchs makes wheels for Porsche and Mercedes among others. So you could advertise a Mercedes wheel as OEM. Same goes with ATS, Cibie, Recaro etc.
NOS=new old stock. Could be any of the above and there is no age for "old" on the new old stock. Oh yea, not just trial fitted or barely used; actually NEW and not used or fitted. We required the part to never have even been sold retail.
NLA= no longer available--means either it has been discontinued or replaced with a supersession.
SS or SSN=Superseeded by a new design OR supplier
GRV= remanfacturered part-may or may not be the original supplier or version
X=exchange-usually referring to electrical parts
XXX-color code needed
PET=online catalog
There are many others and I'm sure others will help cairify.

sorry for the bad spelling.
and dotto on what Eric said.
H

Original always trumps reproduction in my book...but it's sure great to have reproductions available for various unobtanium!

Thank you! I googled Porsche + PET and the Porsche Classic catalog popped up. I didn't even know I could find the information online. It is a starting point.

Some of the new parts coming out from Eric, Carl and some others are just beautiful...I would not hesitate to put them on my cars. It's refreshing to see that type of commitment to quality to what a NOS part would be. If I could find a manufacturer that was making GT lids that were perfect reproductions I may consider putting them on.

John

Great thread you started Mike, really interesting comments being made here.

I think it comes down to what you can afford, so of course original parts will always keep their high values and the repro parts will help those with on a limited budget. Having said that of course there are repro parts that are made as the originals are no longer available or so rare as to be unobtainable, and I for one welcome that and make use of them.

I think perhaps the days of unscrupulous traders passing off repros as originals are diminishing as we are more knowledgeable and have more access to information on forums such as this these days, thanks to the internet.

One other point to make is that of quality, things like door pockets, trim, muffler skirts and so on can all look great and serve their purpose well, it's another thing with repro mechanical parts, it could be potentially disastrous to fit an untested and unproven part into an expensive engine for example, I have seen some pieces recently that leave a little to be desired.

Finally just a word on my own repro part experience. I spent 2 years searching for a NOS Heiznmann extinguisher unit with no luck, so spent another 2 years making a reproduction version. It was a great manufacturing experience and I learnt alot and I know a few others did benefit from the small run.

I fully agree that it has become difficult to distinguish OE from OEM and from reproductions. I sold some Pudenz fuse packs just before the repros came out. I had purchased them from Stoddard's back in the late 1970's when I was involved with a bunch of 356's. I'll have to see if I can find the original invoice and see what part # Stoddard used. With a dealer like Stoddard one never knew the true source of the parts; he did a lot of business and developed a lot of suppliers beyond Porsche I'm sure. Still, it was amazing to to have Chuck go up in the loft and bring down some NOS Drauz stickered door latch panels for the Conv D. He said that if I had mail ordered these parts I would have received repro cabriolet parts instead. A 904 LSD was another neat part he had in stock. I have collected a few 914/6 GT parts over the years and wonder if I should use them or repros. Not easy.

"I need to replace the original door, trunk, and headlight seals this winter. I need to research the seals, installation, etc. I need to understand what I am doing and know the difference between original, reproduction, etc. It is important to me to get this right and feel comfortable with the process."

Candyce,
To be more specific. I think that you'll be happy with all but the available door seals. The door seals went through many evolutions to get better sealing to no avail. I would recommend International Mercantile for the earlier looking door seals. You might try him for all the rubber. I have had good luck since I first ordered from him in 1973.
H
H

This is a debate that is always an issue with current production cars of all types as insurance companies support the least expensive parts, and depending on who you talk to you get that many opinions.

There are factory parts and non factory parts. Generally to keep things simple, "Original" would be parts manufactured during the production of the model, including any inventories left over for production. NOS typically would be "original" because they more than likely were made to original specs during original production periods.

"OEM" could include those parts and parts made after the model was discontinued as well as 1) manufactured by the same suppliers to the same specifications (that would be Original) or different specifications (not Original) 2) manufactured by the same suppliers for the factory or other distributors but with different specifications under license by the OEM (not Original).

Then everything else is 'aftermarket'. If you don't have an original or one can't be built by you or someone else, you just have to shop hard.

A good example is the teardrop taillight for a 356. Original have not been around for decades from any supplier. On the car they look the same, but they aren't. The bullet connectors are a hole with a screw to tighten on a bare wire. But Porsche has distributed those parts for decades with their "original" label. They ain't "Original".

There is a small industry out there by high quality restorers in 356's that have come on stream in the past few years, that are taking original parts and restoring them to original, as I am sure there are those in the 911 market.

As a resent buyer of several early 911's, original speaks loud to me as these cars are original and should be kept that way as close as possible...without losing sight of economics. But there is a part for every level of car.

Hope this supplements Mr. Weidman's definitions........

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Originally Posted by Harvey Weidman

There is alot of misuse of terms. I remember in the 70s when Porsche parts came in a box marked " ORIGINAL-GENUINE". I explained many times that original would be the same as delivered and genuine would only mean it came from Porsche, not necessarly the original fittment.
Here is my start to explain the acronyms.
OE=original equiptment -- self explainatory, except the factory had the right to use other suppliers and versions, but they usually are the same.
OEM=Original equiptment manufacturer--built by the same supplier but not necessarily the same part as delivered. ie Fuchs makes wheels for Porsche and Mercedes among others. So you could advertise a Mercedes wheel as OEM. Same goes with ATS, Cibie, Recaro etc.
NOS=new old stock. Could be any of the above and there is no age for "old" on the new old stock. Oh yea, not just trial fitted or barely used; actually NEW and not used or fitted. We required the part to never have even been sold retail.
NLA= no longer available--means either it has been discontinued or replaced with a supersession.
SS or SSN=Superseeded by a new design OR supplier
GRV= remanfacturered part-may or may not be the original supplier or version
X=exchange-usually referring to electrical parts
XXX-color code needed
PET=online catalog
There are many others and I'm sure others will help cairify.

sorry for the bad spelling.
and dotto on what Eric said.
H

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Hope this supplements Mr. Weidman's definitions........

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Thank you for the additional information. I've read and reread this thread trying to take it all in and understand the terms. My learning curve is steep. I have an all original car that is a Parade Preservation winner. I know I need to keep it as original as possible. I need to gather lots of information before I make a decision or do anything to the car. It is a bit of a challenge ... it just takes a while for me to think it through. I take all of this very seriously.

Where do you call it quits? Rebuilding/restoring a car is an open ended proposition in terms of time and money. Original vs reproduction is often determined by both time and money. Do you have the time to wait weeks and weeks to find the "original" or do your best to find a suitable alternative? I think this is perhaps what seperates one level of build from another. Did they go the extra mile to find the real deal or did they stay as true as possible given a set of limitations? Just be sure you know which you are trying to do and be honest when you represent the car down the road.

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Originally Posted by Sacto S

be honest when you represent the car down the road.

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That's the bottom line for me.
I want to drive my car - want it to look nice as well.
Don't really care if it has original nuts and bolts - as Esso points out that is pretty near impossible to maintain.
First for me is that it works and is safe - how many rubber bits are still up to snuff after 40 years ?
Equally does it look right on the car - as close to can be found to the original. I have one of Erics muffler tips and it is so nice I keep it on my desk. I have an original tip on an original muffler with the usual dings but I will eventually put on the new one.
Then cost - I will not spend $500.00 on an original badge, to me that's crazy money.

My car runs great and I have been told looks pretty nice.
This car is for me to have fun with, not stress over little bits that may or may not be correct.That may be fun for others and that's cool.
I don't look at others cars wondering if they are all original ( unless it is in a museum or claimed as such for sale)

I would be curious as to how many ORIGINAL original parts are on that very early car Ruf is restoring

VERY INTERESTING TOPIC.

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Originally Posted by Sepia911S

Thank you for the additional information. I've read and reread this thread trying to take it all in and understand the terms. My learning curve is steep. I have an all original car that is a Parade Preservation winner. I know I need to keep it as original as possible. I need to gather lots of information before I make a decision or do anything to the car. It is a bit of a challenge ... it just takes a while for me to think it through. I take all of this very seriously.

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Be sure to read the preservation rules. They aren't supposed to take off points for replacement of "wear" items. That would include door seals, wipers, tires etc. Some are argued though.
H

Maybe someday we'll have our own 500-page 'Year One' catalog and be able to sit in an armchair and order parts to assemble an entire new car. Then what. :confused:

Attachment 198080

Attachment 198086Ok, just my 2 cents put in. Since I just went through this situation recently with replacing my "S" rocker trim on my '71 Targa, I had 3 ways to go: 1) have original trim redone by King of Trim $500 to $600. 2)Buy Stoddards genuine Porsche trim at $516. 3) Buy repro from Stoddards $152.
Now I was referred to King of Trim by E. Mayo ( who I highly respect) but the $500 to $600 did not include shipping to CA and was just an estimate and seemed like a lot of money. The sales person at Stoddards was pushing me towards genuine but I opted for the reproduction parts and I am very happy with the fit and finish, Oh yeah! and the price. There were no part #'s on my original trim and I can not see any difference from my repro, the quality is very good. I did however keep my old seals which seemed to fit better, but the metal trim was very nice!! Here is a pic with the new trim.

This is an interesting discussion so far, but there are so many variations based on the particular part being added. For example, the door on an early 911S seems to have been numbered as it went down the assembly line. I have heard various reasons for this but that is not relevant to this discussion. What is relevant is what to do in the event that the door needs to be replaced. If a 1968 911S door is replaced with with a 1968 912 door of excellent quality, what is the status of that car? Is it essentially original? But for the fact that the factory worker from the 912 assembly line arrived before the worker from the 911 line arrived at the pile of doors, the door on the 912 might have been on the 911S. I realize that this is further complicated by whether Karman or Porsche was running the assembly line. But essentially the repair is being made with a genuine Porsche part. If this is done during the restoration process rather than a repair process, it is fraudulent to stamp the last three numbers of the VIN on the 912 door. This is a step in the restoration process. Would you lose concours points if the number is not there?

What if the door is dented and/or rusted and the restorer elects to re skin the door. This way the VIN stamp is still legally on the door but the door skin is new. Is this a remanufactured part? Is the car itself still original?

As a retired lawyer, and being familiar with the Uniform Commercial Code, I would say the car is still "original". Unless a buyer asks question like "ever in an accident and if so what is repaired" the car is original. I am not aware of any legal standard that dictates how much of a car remains to be labeled original. I am not sure what the standard is in England, but Alan's restoration is just short of transferring a VIN plate from one car to another which is illegal in US. Beautiful restoration though! I understand only one State allows recreation of a title, but that is based on putting parts together. That is a body shell with a non matching engine, etc.

Just curious and hope this discussion continues.

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I tend to view cars in four classes or groups and cars can move between groups.

Preservation,Conservation,Restoration,General use.

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What is the difference between preservation and conservation?

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Originally Posted by CurtEgerer

Then what. :confused:

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Why then you stuff a 2.5, or 2.8, or 3.whatever in her and GO RACING !!!! Boogity Boo - oh never mind......

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Originally Posted by Sepia911S

What is the difference between preservation and conservation?

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Preservation is usually referred to on this board as the concourse class. It literally means to "preserve what is there" and replace "wear" items-not to restore. There are rules if you show. But if you describe your car as a preservation car in general then that leaves some explaination.
Conservation term that I have seen used was best described as "An arrested state of decay" not to repair or restore. Even that would require some explaination if one used it as a description.
In My Humble Opinion....
H

Thank you Harvey ... I appreciate your humble opinion! I will read the PCA Concours Rules. I should have read the rules last year. My car is in the preservation class ... it is a great car and in very good condition. I just want to keep it that way. I think concouring the car is the way to maintain it to a very high standard. I entered the 2010 Parade Concours because a PCA member told me I would learn all about my car ... and I sure did. I really need the judges to examine the car and note what needs to be improved. Then, I can move forward. The discussion and debate within this thread makes me think.

It has been great fun showing and sharing the car. I have met so many wonderful people.

The original post asked the question: Are my original parts worth less, more or the same as the new re-pop items? As someone who seeks out original parts relative to repro, I have been asking myself the same question lately. For me, part of the hobby is to seek out the rare parts and re-claim original whenever possible. However, I understand that others might have a different value proposition. Consequently, how do I protect my investment since free enterprise demands that reproduction items fill the void of NLA and rare unobtanium? I also understand that the market will value exact duplicates at a premium so there is an incentive for repro vendors to re-create original and disguise authenticity.

In fact, I was thinking to myself the other day that some enterprising chap could start making “original” dealer invoices. I hate to admit it, but I would probably buy a good repro dealer invoice customized to my car, sit it out in the sun for a few days and stuff it away for the years! Where do we draw the line?

No easy answer – as I see both sides. While I strive to obtain original parts, I need to confess that I’ve added reproduction items to my car when I’ve run into the NLA constraint (example: hounds-tooth seat inserts). Also, I just bought some repro chrome horn grills that are truly works of art. However, my personal standard is not to add an aftermarket trim part to my car if there is an original within reach. So far, I’ve been fortunate to find what I need (i.e., muffler tip, roof rack, ski rack, rocker trim, hood badge, shift knob, key pouch, driving lights, etc.) at a fair price plus I like the hunt. (Note: I’m willing to pay more for original, but I recognize it comes down to one’s perception of value and build standards.) Personally, I apply a different standard to wear items, body panels, engine internals, etc. as I don’t expect a future buyer to discriminate on those types of components. ??

Back to the proposition of how do I protect my investment in original parts? I think both the buyer and seller can work together to ensure the marketplace is balanced. I can ask for documentation and or factory packaging when I buy original parts. Or, I can ask the seller to provide a narrative of where the part came from to document source. I can also just gamble that the truly qualified buyer will appreciate authenticity when he sees it. ?? Finally, I think that we can ask the repro vendors to share the burden and mark their products to identify origin. At the end of the day, it’s just a hobby so investment concerns should not rule day and I do, for one, appreciate repro vendors enhancing the resourcing of rare parts so that future generations can appreciate these rare and special machines.

This car is all original. My husband ordered it in 1973. I have all the original paperwork and 38 years of receipts plus a very detailed log book. I just want to keep it in very good condition ... the sentimental value is high, the monetary value is high plus it is great fun to drive and show. Everyone has an opinion on this car. After I joined this registry in August, on the recommendation of Ed Mayo, I just read the posts and try to learn. I know I can get help here ... and hope I make the right choices.

http://www.stoddard.com/shop/shopexd.asp?id=3473

'Made in China for Porsche AG'. Yuk. This isn't OEM, it's not original, but it's 'for Porsche AG'.

I want to buy a few of these but am very reluctant to drop this on the car.

Captain Mike (OO) would roll over in his grave and I am still of the mindset that quality would not be the same. Maybe I'm ignorant, but I will strive to hold off as long as possible putting something made in China on my car

Candyce;

Your car IS special. And being special makes it much more complicated to own.
Again - I can only add my UNEXPERT OPINIONS and my real but limited experiences.

I couldn't own a car like yours as an only toy. Too much responsibility.
If you use it as it was meant to be used you will need to start swapping original parts if only for safety reasons.
And by original I mean those that it had when it rolled off the line and were ordered by your husband and thus are sentimentaly charged.

My car has been through several owners and quite a bit has been changed.
AND STILL every original bushing and bolt, every hose I replace brings with it a knowledge that I am removing an original part of the car that was there when it left the factory.
I don't think anyone would recommend replacing an original rubber A arm bushing or brake line with another 40 year old one if you were to really use the car (?)
And no original [replacement] part will carry that "real original" load.

Like setting up any car for dual use: Track and road; drive and show.
You will have to give up a little something at both ends.
Or keep it in a plastic bag.

My only advice is to continue as you are - listen to those who are experts and decide for yourself how you want to use the car ( or the other way around )

Great thread:

During the Rennsport experience, many of us met the person in charge of "Porsche classic" from the factory. He was explaining to us that Porsche works on approx. 300 cars per/yr. Porsche does various degrees of restoration. He did mention that Porsche was going to review almost all licensees' that have contracts with Porsche with regards to parts for their cars. If the standards do not meet their NOW criteria these companies would be replaced with contractors that can do it precisely like the factory was promised. One of the items the factory rep said would be out very soon is the Porsche badge that has been knocked-off, restored, and resold for upwards of $400. He said the new badges will be absolutely perfect and will sell for circa $100 USD. So like my friend Eric mentioned about the "hood mounted" lights, if you have these...best to sell now !

What is really intersting is that "NOW" Porsche finally gets that there are throngs of their cars that we are trying to "bring back to life". It only took them 30 years, and $millions of lost revenue to get that we here in the USA really have made restoration of Porsches a hobby. However, they ( Porsche ) are taking this very seriously and they really want to do-it-right, as they should. I give much of this credit to the higher-ups @ Porsche -Classic for their dedication to this mission.

BTW..I hung out with Mr.Linden @ RR4 for the duration when I was there. I must say, Erics' parts: horn grills, luggage carrier, exhaust tips, and rear 1/4 panel caps are friggen perfect !! Congrats to Mr. Linden for NOT settling for mediocracy and putting a quality product for us to buy.

Seems like most if not all the Porsche boys are collecting the early 911`s on-back to the Gmuend treasures............

Curt, was that Porsche fellow the same guy that provided the Kardex info ?

That is all FANTASTIC news for all concerned ! This should get very interesting.

And really, Erics goods are as good as it gets - I find myself mesmerized at times by the muffler tip sitting on my desk.

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Like setting up any car for dual use: Track and road; drive and show.
You will have to give up a little something at both ends.
Or keep it in a plastic bag.

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No plastic bags for this car! I drove it about 3,500 miles during the last year ... two trips to Elkhart Lake and a tour of the track, some rallyes, many Chicago Region PCA events, and many local cruise nights. I borrowed a truck and rented a U-Haul trailer to transport it to Savannah. It is a great car, needs to be driven ... just a bit, and needs to be shown.

A friend said, "Drive it or sell it!" I am looking forward to the ride.

Good for you Candyce !! I'm glad to hear you're driving it, and it looks like you're enjoying this board, glad that has worked for you! The fact that you're driving it does mean that you'll need to keep up with, and do necessary maintenance and part replacement necessary to keeping it roadworthy, ie. brakes, brake hoses, wheel bearings, tires, fuel lines and other consumables. All of that is expected to be done on a preservation class car. I would do the door seals you mentioned earlier IF yours are really cracked and brittle, especially since the original profile is now available from Stoddards. As I think I mentioned earlier, I'd leave that paint on the rear fender alone unless you can find a painter who can prove to you his ability to match the faded color. Maybe faded was a bad choice,,,,aged might be better,,,,I know you have it absolutely shining!!! Enjoy the ride,
Ed

Hard to put a value on respect and integrity. You are seen in collective community as being illustrative of both.

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Originally Posted by curtisaa

He said the new badges will be absolutely perfect and will sell for circa $100 USD. So like my friend Eric mentioned about the "hood mounted" lights, if you have these...best to sell now !

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Ha! I laughed out loud when I read this. If the new repro badges are demonstrative of Porsche's concept of "absolutely perfect", that's another good reason we need guys like Eric who understand the true meaning of those words.

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Originally Posted by Soterik

Bump to an interesting thread.... 3 years later and prices and availability of NOS has certainly changed a lot! Prices up and availability down. Certainly I would have been better off by investing in cars and NOS parts rather than making parts (big mistake "overall").

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Now, now; being a martyr in Porschdom has its merits.

If Richard Parr from PMO had a crystal ball way back when I believe he might see things differently as well. For those of us who NEED his products for competitive racing he's a hero.

Thanks for making the investment Eric; The vintage Porsche community is grateful.



I would have to agree with John: Porsche seems to be confused as to what "absolutely perfect" is in our world.

The real kicker will be when your parts start being resold for as much or almost as much as the originals...

Never bet against greed and the desire to CONTROL the market.

You know ... Just reading the first post to this thread "today" without closely verifying the original post date.
Made me say out loud in a funny way...

What the hell is 210Bhp talking about?!?!! :-)

+1 on Frank's comments. Its always exciting to see what new parts you've come up with at your Lit meet booth. Always one of my first stops. Thanks Eric.

Eric has always turned out good stuff. We used to brain storm products and quality was always 1st and foremost on his mind. Price was 2nd fiddle although he didn't intend to dig a hole for himself. His stuff is always good and it's always been more than fairly priced.

As of late Carl Bauer has been blind-sided by Porsche with their attempt at the Purolater filter. Sort of a shame as I know he went to a lot of trouble to bring these to market and I still believe 100% he has the best one of the bunch IF you care about 100% authenticity.

Support these guys and we'll never go hungry for parts. (I hope). :D

Tom

Is the Porsche shop item wrong?
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Attachment 373928
:confused:

Quote:

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Is the Porsche shop item wrong?

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I have never seen a factory decal/sticker in period like that.... doesn't mean it never exited... but?

cm

That'S correct, for MY 70 it was on rt. frt windshield corner.

Ed,

I think fgmec is talking about the look of the sticker itself not the placement.... how does the one the factory is selling look to you compared to the one pictured on the window?

cm

Forgive the newbie question but is there a running list of known repo issues? Can be a balancing act in working with, not against vendors, so it requires some thought but we did this in another community that got that balance right and it was a big help to new owners. Happy to say that a couple of the vendors engaged cooperatively on the list and improved the quality of their offerings and generated more business for having done so. Win-win.

Keep in mind that licensing is about making money. it's really not about helping us. In most corporations the vintage parts license program is run out of the legal department - not the parts department. I'm not sure about the arrangement at Porsche.

Richard Newton
Vintage Race Car Images

From reading this thread, the inference seems to be that reproduction parts are considered inferior to genuine items. Unfortunately, this has proven to be true many times over in the modern car world and the cheap race to the bottom suicide slide that the planet is on. Rant over!

As a developer of replacement parts for classic vehicles, I see this differently. ALL cars are/were designed to a price, so it follows that the design of some OE parts left a little to be desired. We all know the Achilles heel's of the 911 and read about them often on forums like this one. Personally, my mission is to make reproduction parts that are better than the original parts and therefore they are intrinsically more valuable. We are proud to display our logo on them too! Effort in = value out.

So as to the value of original parts over reproduction, it very much depends on the part. Yes, if you have some lovely original Fuchs wheels they will be more valuable than copies. But I can't imagine mass produced original heat exchangers would ever be more valuable than a set of beautifully made SSIs for example. Can a poorly designed OE part be worth more than a part that is designed to address the issue?

For me, it's all about quality.

Actually it might not be about quality.

A lot of the current discussion is about stewardship. Some cars (not all) are now viewed at historical objects. The original history of the car is important. Being a good steward means you're protecting history. A restoration on the other hand is a permanent change of the object.

The interesting part of this discussion was that cars were never meant to last for hundreds of years. The designers and builders expected them to wear out. That simply doesn't happen with a Monet.

It's an interesting discussion but it does get a little rarefied. What cars are worth preserving? Which ones can be restored?

Richard Newton

This does get to be a thin line at some point but when you need a replacement part spending the money on quality with specialized vendors clearly the way to go, Jonny's post above made a good point about the to-a-price-point consideration.

OTOH, What cars are worth driving?

SRP, Wevo, SSI, PMO, Elph. Racing and some others make aftermarket parts that are better than the factory versions. Maybe include M&K and Monty mufflers.

What is true stewardship for a car? Is it keeping the car frozen in time as a rolling museum? Or does it also include evolving the car as new materials become available to improve the functions it was designed to do?

For the 911, more than virtually any other car, the factory evolved the car over time. Otherwise we'd all be driving with lead wt.s in our bumpers.

I think stewardship is irrelevant for most Porsches. They were mass produced cars and there are always a bunch of them on the market.

If you should own a 911R though it's a totally different situation. Very few cars were made and they definitely qualify as a true collectible. The same with a 917 or 908.

We really have different groups of cars. Most of our 911s are hobbyist cars. A few though are collectible. Those are two rather different situations.

Richard Newton

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Originally Posted by 37yrold911

OTOH, What cars are worth driving?

SRP, Wevo, SSI, PMO, Elph. Racing and some others make aftermarket parts that are better than the factory versions. Maybe include M&K and Monty mufflers.

What is true stewardship for a car? Is it keeping the car frozen in time as a rolling museum? Or does it also include evolving the car as new materials become available to improve the functions it was designed to do?

For the 911, more than virtually any other car, the factory evolved the car over time. Otherwise we'd all be driving with lead wt.s in our bumpers.

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Anybody recall Upfixin der Porsche? There was a time when a point of pride was that all the "updates had been completed" on a given car.
This was clearly stated in old Pano ads. These were the cars that you gravitated toward as you knew the owner was a like minded gear head who had cared for his car.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richardnew

I think stewardship is irrelevant for most Porsches. They were mass produced cars and there are always a bunch of them on the market.

If you should own a 911R though it's a totally different situation. Very few cars were made and they definitely qualify as a true collectible. The same with a 917 or 908.

We really have different groups of cars. Most of our 911s are hobbyist cars. A few though are collectible. Those are two rather different situations.

Richard Newton

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Richard,

Well stated. While a select few will be "collectible". Most are hobbyist/enthusiast cars. Once the age cohort that has wanted one of these gets them (i.e. Available disposable income), the market will take a significant down turn except for the true collectibles. Witness what is going on in the post WWII hot rod market to see our future.

For me like I think many here, it is the cool cars of the 60's and early 70's.

I went to a roadster show recently and saw all kinds of hot rod/roadster builds. The paint, interiors, motors etc were awesome but I would never want one on my garage. They are too "old fashioned". That said, the workmanship exhibited would be great for a car of any era.

sithot,

I sold off all of my UpFixin books this year. They were great. I even posted some of them for sale and no one wanted them :)

How quickly we forget.

Richard Newton
Stewardship

I suppose it’s time for me to update my thinking Eric.

First up, I still own the same cars and most of the original parts I’ve collected over the years as I did when I first posted.
No change there then.

I’m still wondering the same things however even though things have moved on since the original post. There seems to be a large shift in customizing the original 911 factory concept. Hot rods, clones, replicas and special wish 911’s seem to be more common. Are owners becoming tired of ‘originality’ in all its respects? I have to pay more (in the UK) for a 72 replica ST (backdated with modern replacement lookalike parts) than a very original 72E. A lot more!

So I’m still wondering what value (desireability not financial) there is to keeping to use, sell, exchange original parts from a receding generation of knowledgeable experts to a generation who don’t know (or care) any better. Are the originality dudes just as prolific in the SC, Carrera, 964 and 993 generation now?

Are we losing the originality of the longhood into the mists of time forever?

Does it now matter as much that Eric and others mark their parts proudly so that we can say in the future ‘ah that’s an Autoforeign exact reproduction which was the absolute best available at the time and indistinguishable from the original 70’s part’.



Regards
Mike

YES to most of that--things have changed and "resto" can be more free-wheeling.

This thread reminds me of another thread started 6(six) years earlier UPGRADES WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE by gymmoe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Soterik

Bump, and looking for new responses considering any changes in the marketplace and new restoration experts.

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I'm no expert but I know what I know.

The “parts part” of the vintage car hobby has been a rollercoaster ride that took a while to get where it is. If you were an “All-American” car guy your prayers were answered long before the rest of the world caught up. That was Eric’s leg up in penetrating the Porsche parts market. Nobody was doing it well, if at all. Picking the right parts to produce was another can of worms. Being where “they” are not is a good strategy.

The Internet may be reviled for a lot of things but it has made it easier for a small business to tackle markets. Locating parts and producers has become easy and I shudder to think that I’d have to go back to “knowing a guy” who “knows a guy”.

Years ago when I started working on and restoring BMW motorcycles it was a snipe hunt of sorts when it came to sourcing vintage pieces and parts for the bikes. I would go to swap meets and made a few trips to Daytona Bike Week looking to score, only to come up short as it is the Mecca for Harley Davidson and not much else. When I got into vintage Ducatis and Moto Guzzis it wasn’t much better.

There was a shift that BMW deserves a lot of credit for. They began putting old parts back into production. BMW Mobile Tradition was in the business a long time before anyone at Porsche thought of Porsche Classic. It has now become BMW Classic and they have Automobile and Motorcycle divisions. This was a boon to those of us who had tired of chasing junk. Back before a new fender could be bought, searches would often turn up rusty dregs that would cost a lot to bring back. Most of the time one could put more money into the part than it would ever be worth. Many of you know BMW built a “new” 2002 from parts they were reproducing. https://www.bmwgroup-classic.com/en/...eile-shop.html

I admire anyone who is willing to get into a business where you could find your part being reproduced in Vietnam for fifty cents on the dollar as happened to a friend in the vintage BMW bike business. His kick-start lever was produced there and “somehow” began showing up at dealers for significantly less. He didn’t have much control from almost 9,000 miles away. Hard lesson learned.

We all benefit from this paradigm shift. There are things out here I thought I’d never see again! CNC, 3D scanning and parts “printing” have really changed things for the better. Do I care if it is original? Not so much, as long as it’s done to high standard.

Recently a gentleman in Florida, who shall remain nameless for sake of privacy, needed a very rare 550 part that hasn’t been produced since all the 550 and 4 cam parts ceased production. FYI: Brundidge/Brumos threw all their 4 Cam stuff in the dumpster once no longer current. The part needed was located but not available. The person who had the part graciously offered to have it scanned, printed and also provide a CAD/CNC file. Who would have thought such a thing could happen 20 years ago without having the energy, enthusiasm and bank account of Jay Leno?

Some of you have worked with Jimmy Tidwell. I’ve bought some wonderful tools from him. Last year he shared notes on one pet project that I wanted to tackle.
I took on finding one “original” item that would make the product “like it was BITD”. I’m awaiting these and when they show up I’ll be sharing them with him. Quid pro quo.

Continued success, Eric. Can’t say what you should make next, but I can say that what you have made is as good as it gets.

Because of China, one really needs to watch what you buy. There is no substitute for NOS. Even many of the new parts Porsche is selling, are now lousy as compared to the originals. THAT is one of the reasons original cars with patina are worth more than beautifully restored ones with aftermarket parts. When purchasing, just make sure you ask the salesman how good the parts really are. If the guy is a true Porsche person he will tell you from the heart and you will get a good part (or not so good part if that is what you want!