Original post......
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Original post......
These cars definitely deserve their own thread. Photos are few and far between. As mentioned, this was the official debut of the Carrera RSR. The event is the Tour de Corse held in Corsica on November 3, 1972 (btw: TDC was also the official debut of the Lancia Stratos).
LEO-ZA-68 / 911 330 0789 was actually a modified 72S 2.5L with a 2.8L motor.
LEO-ZA-69 / 911 360 0020 was obviously an RS/RSR.
Neither car finished the event. Waldegard wrecked LEO-ZA-68 during the event. LEO-ZA-69 served as a test car for the factory over the winter months - shown here with the telltale white door.
Hopefully we can find some more fotos & info on these cars.
It's really tough to tell from these photos, but it sure does look like an oil door here ....
Last photos are very interesting...notice how the rear flares are installed...lots like some of my work...lol
that is.... looks like some of my body work....boy even my emails are ruff...
This is a great thread to compliment the "Targa" one.
Can anyone (Curt????) help identify this photo / car. It is from the Aichele book "Porsche 911: Forever Young" and the text accompanying it suggests that it is Rally testing in Africa.
The car looks like one of the LEO -ZA cars. On high magnification it does not look like there is a licence plate under the mud. Therefore it MAY be somewhere on the Porsche test track area and not in Africa.
The RS book says (on pp 163) that one of the LEO-ZA cars "R1" which it identifies as the Waldegaard car, after a considerable amount of time on the "Panzer" test track, was used as a practice vehicle in the 1978 safari rally. I was wondering if this is what is depicted in the photo? It would however be surprising to me that it actually Africa and it was in the same livery over 5 years later:confused:
In any case I am very confused about the reference in the RS book to "R1" in this context. The other references about the Waldegaard car LEO-ZA-68 as Curt has posted above are also a bit confusing suggesting it is a 72S but giving a 73S chassis number that could not possibly have existed at the time of the TDC (Nov 3 1972).
However nowhere else has it been suggested that LEO-ZA-68 was "R1" which is RS 911 360 0019 a genuine 1973 build car with, according to John Starkey's book, a 1973 production number.
The other car in the TDC, Larrousse's LEO-ZA-69 is supposed to be R2 911 360 0020 and there does not seem to be any dispute about that. It is also (according to the RS book) the car that is supposed to have gone to the winter testing at Paul Ricard in December 1972 and is shown there in the pics above.
My version of Starkey's R-RS-RSR book says that "R1" was used at Paul Ricard with Van Lennep and Muller and Singer as engineer, and does not show any competition history for it:confused: Maybe that has been changed in a later edition and I need to upgrade from my first edition:)
In any event I think that this thread gives a chance to nail down some of these issues surrounding the competition debut of the RSR.
IIRC,
About 5-10 years ago Josh Sadler at Autofarm restored one of these cars - I suspect it was the 2.5 S converted/prototype RSR - and had it for sale.
Perhaps Andyjboy can shed some light on this one.
Cheers,
Cennis.:)
Dennis
In the late 1990's Autofarm restored the ex Zazada car which became RS 9113600001 and is discussed in another thread and in detail on John Starkey's website.
Not only is there no cutouts for twin pipes, but the rear bumpers look like steel not lightweight (see broken reflector on LHS and tape strip) but there are no bumper over-riders similar to some of the lightweight ST's and earlier cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
The pic of LEO-ZA-68 from the rear at TDC looks like it has fibreglass bumpers and overriders and it has the cutouts in the rear valance for twin pipes. Also it does not have any tabs holding in the windows.
I thought the metal tabs for the rear windows might be to stop it popping out in rough conditions rather than a sign that it had sustained damage - although if you blow up the picture and look at the line across the top of the window where the vents are it looks like there may be some damage to the roof and it might be a trick of the light but the centre of the ducktail looks strange as if damaged and repaired roughly and the LHR guard near the ducktail seems damaged.
I cant see any sign of the sponsors decals that should be showing if it was in the trim of the tour de course - ie the SHELL decal on the rear quarter or the BOSCH near the rear lights - however COULD this be the Waldegaard car AFTER the accident at the TDC testing at the "Panzer" track?? (ie patched together but not completely fixed)
they look like factory rally modifications to me
see pics Larrousse lightweight ST (with holes drilled in them:eek: )
3 pics of RS 285 (one of the factory Safari Kuhne & Nagel cars S-AR-7909 )
Konradshiem describes '68' as being "demolished" by Waldegard at the 72 TDC. Of course, as long as the VIN tag was saved ..... :cool:
yes ...................... but he also says in the RS book on pp 163 "it was patched back together after its misfortune in corsica and after a long stint as a test car on the "Panzer" track was used as a practice vehicle on the 1978 Safari Rally"Quote:
Originally Posted by CurtEgerer
Panzer track might be a Tank test track. The track where you take your Panzer tank. BTW I think Panzer means protected/ secured.
Richard
As an aside, I had dinner with a former Porsche racing engineer a few nights ago and he said that Fuchs wheels originated with the Panzer tanks in the early 60's ... maybe this is common knowledge? He also worked in Porsche's military division beginning in 1974 after the oil embargo and the cutback in racing. Maybe he knows of a renegade 911 running the tank track :eek:
I think 019 R1 and 020 R2 were not RSRs at the Tour de Corse, but were more like prototype RSs in ST configuration, as shown in the photos previously. They are listed as having no LSD, and only a roll bar and aux heater as options, but no conversion number to indicate a 471, 472, or 491. R2 (which we know had a 72 body with oil door on right side) was then converted from a "rally" car to a "track" car for the Paul Ricard track tests, which is where the tacked on flares to house 11" wheels came into being. R1 was apparently damaged enough in the TDC to not be used in competition for awhile.
I agree with Hugh that R1s original 73S VIN 3300789 seems too high for 911S production numbers in Nov. 72, but we don't have any other (so far) sources to suggest another scenario. I think the consecutive production numbers reflect the factory's reconfiguring them as rally cars (nearly identical from photos) for the Tour de Corse, which could have included a few special features such as jacking plates, possibly more spot welding for ruggedness, etc. Successful rally competition was an important customer marketing tool for Porsche, and many of the earlier STs had seen much action in rallies and not track competition.
Gib Bosworth
Interesting oil filter location on the 78 rally car, not 73 and up, and not far enough forward to be normal 72. Also seems to have cover plate over it.
looks like a '72 oil console mounted backwards?
I have vague memories of photos or video of such a track years ago - maybe in connection with 917's. However I genuinely have no idea of where the Pic was taken and was hoping that the combined resources of the board - which is an awesome resource - might be able to shed some light on itQuote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
I noticed tonight that both the LEO-ZA cars and the #9 and #107 Targa cars all have their wipers parking on the left (drivers) side.
However they are parked on the right (passenger) side on all or most of the European campaigned prototype R cars including #8 (588 R6 ) at the Targa and its other appearances during that year at Monza, Vallelunga, Spa, and Le Mans ; R5 (576) at Vallelunga, Dijon, and Spa; R7 (686) at Nürburgring, and Le Mans ,but not at Zeltweg where it ran a single wiper; and R8 (974) at Monza.
Is there anything in this or is it just another piece of useless information:eek: ?
Given the effort involved in changing the wiper's parking from one side to the other is it a means of identifying chassis over a short period of time - ie one month to another which is the time frame that many of these races were within?
Another data point is all the "customer" RS's I have pics of in 1973 , and the Zazada car (RS 001), seem to have their wipers on the LHS like the LEO cars and two of the Targa cars that appear to be on 72 shells
What else did they have to do :confused: :confused: :D
More and more interesting! Although this is an aside, I thought that I should point out the mysteries and fates that befell the factory entered RSRs of 1972/3:
911 360 0001: Was S/T 911 230 0769. Re-numbered. Still in existence with unbroken line of ownership.
911 360 0002: Was S/T 911 230 0841. Re-numbered. Almost cetainly the "Strahle" Rs/RSR at July 1972 Osterreichring 1000Kms. APPARENTLY used as a practice car for the 1978 Safari Rally. APPARENTLY in the ownership today of "An English enthusiast?"
911 360 0019: R1: Built 10/1972. November: Paul Ricard tests. Not heard of since. What happened to it?
911 360 0020: R2: Built 10/1972.
1973: Last raced at Le Mans with Peter Gregg/Chasseuil, #48. Not heard of since. The car in the Porsche museum?
911 360 0307 R3: Built 12/72.
Penke car at Daytona 4 Hours 1973. DNF.
Sold to Al Holbert. Raced in 1973 season, wrecked by Milt Minter at Edmonton end of season, re-chassised with a 911T bodyshell, wrecked again, re-chassised with a 1975 Comp chassis. Being restored by Gunnar Racing.
911 360 0328 R4: Built 1/1973.
Gregg Haywood winner of 1973 Daytona 24 Hours. Sent back to factory. "Verschrotten" (Broken up/dismantled for inspection). Never heard of/seen since.
911 360 0576 R5: Built 2/1973.
Did 1973 season, for 1974, converted to RSR Turbo Carrera, 2002-2004: Gunnar Racing converted the car back to its original RSR configuration. The recovered turbo running gear was built into a spare bodyshell to recreate that configuration.
911 360 0588 R6: Built 2/1973.
1973: World Championship season, won Targa Florio. For many years, with Peter Kitchak.
911 360 0686 R7: Built 2/1973.
1973: Worl Championship season.
1974: Sold to Hector Rebaque. Le Mans, Osterreich 1000Kms. Severely damaged in trailer. Under restoration.
911 360 0974 R8: Built 5/1973.
1973: Monza 1000Kms then Targa Florio: Damaged, not been heard of or seen since.
Still some mysteries to resolve! They led a hard life.
John Starkey
Did, and perhp still does exist....
But was built in February, 1973 as a normal street S. (Factory confirmation). So there was a typo and 911 230 0769 fits the current scenario as a LEO ZA car.
Incidentally, Leonberg, (LEO), is a district of Weissach, hence the registration number/Tag. There was a re-arrangement of districts in the mid 1970s and the old LEO tg disappeared.
John
it is great to have your expert input into this discussion / exploration of the history of the early werks cars.
I am puzzled at one thing that you may be able to shed some light on.
in your post above you state that
"911 360 0019: R1: Built 10/1972. November: Paul Ricard tests. Not heard of since. What happened to it?"
The RS book claims that it was R2, still in LEO-ZA form, that did the tests at paul ricard in early december 1972 and in the process was modified from a rally car to track car with 11 inch rear wheels, the raised spindles on the front suspension to give more suspension travel, etc.
Your book makes no mention of R2 being there for those tests.
The pics available show a LEO-ZA car at Paul Ricard, but there are other factory pictures (in the RS book amongst other places) that appear to be at a racetrack, that I assume is Paul Ricard (from seeing a caption against it in another publication a long time ago), showing a red 72 car looking like a RSR and a white with red RS (or what looks like a stock RS.)
Is there some confusion between R1 and R2 here? Or were they both there? (maybe R1 as a standard looking car (it was supposed to be built as white with red) and R2 in LEO-ZA form?)
Or maybe is there confusion between R2 and 002 in the material used for the RS book? The Red car at the circuit is possibly the Strahle car (002?) especially if the second LEO -ZA car was the Zazada car
Finally Is there a possibility that the LEO - ZA car at paul ricard was really R1??
if so was R1 also a LEO-ZA car at the Tour de Course .........or might the factory have just swapped plates to get the cars through customs (given they obviously had customs clearance to get the LEO cars to France for the TDC)
The lack of any sort of history for R1 fascinates me - it is almost like it did not exist....... or was a composite of different cars at different times to suit "administrative purposes"
yes that is the photo I was thinking of...............or at least ALMOST that photo. I will put mine up. It is from a slightly different angle:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
BUT while I thought that the Red car was a prototype RSR, possibly the "Strahle" car (but probably not an "R" car) I was not sure of the identity of the white car.
From Starkey's caption he has identifies the red car as the Zasada car 001:confused:
The white car is the same "original build" color of R1 and R2 but to me looks to me more like a standard RS than an RSR. (single outlet exhaust and no obvious wide rear flares)
Given that a few of the early build cars were white with red I was never sure what it was, although the rear bumpers, no deco strip etc suggest a lightweight - maybe M471. (see rear bumpers in second pic.)
It could not be 017 which was also white and red, as 017 was a M472 and this car looks like a lightweight. Also a letter from the factory in 1993 regarding 017 mentions lots of photos that it is in (by page number in the RS book) but does not mention the pages this photo is in.
Apart from 017 and R1 019 and R2 020, the next lowest white with red car is 037 built in November 1992 for French delivery,but again it is a M472, and then a number of other ones 53, 54 etc still November cars but again M472's for German delivery. The earliest M471 white and red car is 055 a car delivered to Austria and built in November. It is a possible candidate but why would they use a customer car?
I am surprised that Starkey has identified it as 002 - I thought that 002 was the red Strahle car and was therefore the car in the foreground?
Also the caption says that this is at the "factory testing grounds" - which I think means it is NOT Paul Ricard?
John Starkey are you out there? can you add anything to this??
I think the Starkey picture caption must be before his recent comments on the link in this thread, because I think he has concluded, as many of us have, that the red car is 002 and is the Strahle car, and #107 at the TF. But I think there are still some conclusions in his latest comments about the Prototypes that need more investigation...let's keep digging!
http://www.johnstarkeycars.com/pages...ticles_42.html
Gib Bosworth
Hi Hugh, Varunan, and all.
Being as it's a holiday, I took some time to look back on all this stuff on early RSRs. Looking at that photos ofthe red and white car together, I'm now fairly certain the red car is 911 360 0002, (COULD still be 0001), though what the white RS 2.7 is, I don't know.
Just by chance, I flicked through my book "From R to GT3R-The Racing Porsches 911 and 930." On page 58 is a photo of an early RSR, pinted in Martini colors, race number 3 on a snowy racetrack, meaning that it was taken during the winter of 1972/3. To my eyes, all its details match the red car, (0002), particularly the wheel rch shpes, which seem to have been peculiar to 0001 and 0002. Also, the rear oil door is there, wipers parked to the left, RS style outside mirror, '72 style horn grills, opening rear side windows, same opening for the fuel tank, same rollbar. I also have some thougts on the Targa Florio cars but have put them in the appropriate thread.
John Starkey
Hugh, Varunan et al.
The car that Gerard Larrousse drove for Louis Meznarie for most of 1971 and 1972 was 911 030 0949, a "special" 1970 S/T.
We now know that the car that Peter Gregg drove at Le Mans 1973 with Chasseuil, was a Sonauto entered car, not a Works-run car. Sonauto took delivery of four RSRs in 1973, two white and two yellow. Only one was built in time to have done Le Mans and that was 911 360 0643, delivered to Erlen/Robert Buchet for Claude Ballot-Lena to race. It is almost certain that Ballot-Lena gave up his Le Mans seat for Gregg, as Ballot Lena drove the Charles Pozzi entered Ferrari 365 GTB/4 Daytona that finished 6thOA and won the GTS class.
The two white cars, which COULD have fitted the bill were 1033, which was sold to the Almeras Brothers to race and 1088, delivered to Geeraerts to race. I suppose it is possible one of the two white cars could have been resparyed yellow but why bother?
Regarding 911 360 0019: I do have a note, from long ago, tht it was entered in the 1973 Targa Florio for Steckkong/Pucci, as #108 but was "wrecked in a practice accident"(!) Does this account for this car's disappearance? Still lots to discover!
John Starkey
Hugh,
Replying to your question(s) on R1 (911 360 0019). I now think that it was R2, (911 360 0020), that did the Paul Ricard tests, after being at the Tour de Corse.
A further theory: Perhaps R1/0019 was never built? If you look in the chassis register for RS 2.7s, there is precious little information on it, likewise 0020. Furthermore, why should the factory bother to make two prototype RS/RSRs, R1 and R2, when they already had Zasada's old crashed rally car, 911 230 0769, to make into 911 360 0001, and homologate as the Group 4 RSR? We know that this happened.
There is mention of R1 being this car in Konradsheim's RS book, but there, it says that "R1" was later on used on the Panzer Track at Weissach and then as a practice car for the 1978 Safari Rally and, today, it reportedly belongs to "An English enthusiast". Really? We know that 0001 (R1?) was sold to Stanley Palmer in England in 1974.
Of course, they also had 911 360 0002 and....Where is 0002 now? No record of it being written off, that I can find. Apparently, it was "Number 107 in the Targa Florio" again, info from the RS book by Konradsheim.
If so, could this not be the "chassis 0020" in the Porsche Museum now? Anyone care to get the production number next time you're at the museum?
Your thoughts would be appreciated!
John:
At one point in the TF thread I had concluded that the museum car was 002 (#107), but all factory documentation seems to show it to be 020 (#9). Both were built from 72 STs, both had been used quite a bit for development work by the factory.
Someone needs to open the hood and quickly look at the stamped VIN before the attendent says "please don't touch", then we will know for sure.
But it is really a mystery what happened to 002, #107. One theory I had earlier was that it was further modified into a 74 RSR, but no info seems to exist. It would be a pretty valuable car if someone could uncover it.
Gib Bosworth
The production number is beneath a plate and knee guard on the factory Museum car, so I doubt that a visitor could quickly remove them to take a look at that number. I think it will be up to someone at the factory to verify it.
Gib
On the balance of probabilities I think there were 4 cars that have been confused in the literature, and possibly at the factory records.(maybe deliberately:eek: ) I think both 001 and 002 are separate from R1 and R2 but have been confused over time. 001 and 002 are almost certainly 1972 ST's converted / upgraded to the latest spec but not counted for homologation purposes.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Starkey
I think R1 and R2 were in the RS homologation process - ie (maybe re-manufactured )/ produced as RSH cars, sent to the weigh bridge and counted, and then used in the group 4 and group 5 development process. They would also have been earmarked as a part of the factory race effort , although it seems as if R1 never made it onto the team.
It is relatively certain that R2 (020) is the car in the factory museum. Contemporary photos of cars supposed to be it suggest it may be on a 72 shell - not surprising as cars 011 to 018 probably all were - on some contemporary pictures of these early build cars there is an oil door showing on others there is not (someone airbrushed them out??).
I don't believe I have ever seen a photo of a car I can identify as R1 and I have also wondered if it ever existed.
I also wonder IF it could be the other Tour De Course car - ie if both the LEO-ZA cars were R1 and R2. It is interesting that BOTH of these cars have black horn grills, light surrounds and other 1973 features, unlike the pictures of remodeled ST's.
That would not be inconsistent with one of the cars being originally an ex 2.5 ST - indeed they both may be! ........but different ones to cars 001 and 002 and remade from the ground up on the production line.
On the other hand 001 had to be rebuilt after Zasada crashed it so why waste an opportunity to upgrade its spec to the latest, even if it was not homologated. I suppose there is a slight possibility that "official record" of R1 was the Zasada car being remade after the big accident.(and then counted to get the numbers up) . But if it was, why would it have a real chassis number 001 stamped into it rather than 019.
The Strahle car (002 probably) on the other hand was a very early test bed M491 car in a project running parallel to the series production RS project (when it was still the 911S2.7 project). According to the RS book it was conceived and developed in the 3 months leading up to July 1972 after Fuhrmann has seen the group 4 Fords and BMW's run away from the Porsches.
How IT gets to be 002 when the rebuilt Zasada car gets to be 001 is beyond me. However I think it has very distinctive rear flares and is probably the 107 car in the race at the targa in 1973.
It may have ended up as the 1978 safari Recce car because 001 certainly was not that car, given it was in the UK 4 years earlier. given a number of "old" race cars got left in the countries they went to later in life. IF it went to Africa in 1978 it probably stayed there. R1 is the other possible candidate for this fate.
On Sept 5, I received this e-mail from varunan123
Zasada rallye car 911 230 0769-ran the europa rallye-unknown result,ran bulgaria rallye-number 1 came in first.Did polish rallye crashed sent back to the factory.Don't know if it is one of the leo-za cars that ran in the tour de corse.
Yes, I am familiar with 9112300769 (renumbered 9113600001 when rebuilt as Carrera RSL prototype); Starkey and I swapped contributions re: this car on the Targa Florio thread in Feb and March, 2007, and I have a copy of the car's Documented History by Steve Carr. From Norbert Singer's notes, 0001 did not race at the '72 Tour de Corse; it may, however, have been one of two practice cars used by Waldegaard and Larrousse for 10 days prior to that event. Unfortunately, Singer did not record the VINs of those practice cars. There is a picture of Singer standing next to a 911 with very large rear flares in his book 24:16, but I have no reason to believe that car is 0001; in fact, Barth notes in the Doc History that 0001 was not taken over by the Press and Sports Division until Dec 20, more than a month after the TdC. As I wrote in my 3-27-07 post on the TF thread, I thought 0001 was used by the Factory to test fit various body parts, engines, whatever, to various cars throughout the '73 WCM season; there is nothing in Singer's notes that record its use during that season.
Good luck and keep those posts coming on the TdC and TF threads; they are FASCINATING!
These are 2 pictures from Singers book in relation to the "Rallye Corsica" , as he states it.
John Starkey referred to them in another thread on the Targa cars
They show 2 cars with red / orange bodies and white bonnet and roof. One is clearly shown as S AK 1337. The other does not show up well on the scan but I can read S AK 13 on the original with the rest blocked. The one in the foreground has twin pipes like an RSR and no bumper horns and silver trim on the lights.
These look like the practice cars that Larousse and Waldegard used for the rally and they look like the same cars that they used at Monte Carlo earlier in the year but with red ducktails on instead of the white standard engine lid shown in the photo above.
Assuming the license plates were not being transferred from car to car, one of the cars went on to do the rally Cervannes with Larousse, entered by Meznarie, a month or so after this photo and other events for those two. 1336 seems to be still alive and well today, or at least a car with those plates looking like the 1972 Monte car is.
The caption for these photos in Singers book seems to be wrong.
It states "The Rallye Corsica was the last such event for the 911 Carrera, this car being taken straight to the Paul Ricard track to be transformed for circuit racing."
All the evidence points to one of the LEO-ZA RACE cars being the one to go to Paul Ricard - not a practice car.
However IS it possible that ST S-AK-1337 (the Waldegard car at the Monte) was the car that was the ST that became the Waldegard car for the rally LEO-ZA-68? with the other car going to Meznarie ?
In that case it was a 1972 ST that was transformed........but which one?
I have also attached a pic of 1336 at a reecnt rally in europe for comparison
resurrecting an old thread on the tour de corse RS's and the development of the RSR for the track
here are two photos I stumbled across on another site of R2 at the Paul Ricard test track immediately after the TdC event.
these are much earlier than i have ever seen before as they still have the red and white on the doors as seen at the TdC, unlike the plain white doors that are in the other photos, and still have much of the signage from the TdC but not the lights etc.
the first one seems to still be in narrow body form (albeit hacked about a bit) while the second one has the wide flares that were crafted at the circuit to suit wider wheels etc needed to turn the rally car into a track car.
the final photo is at a later stage in testing with the white doors that are familiar from other photos of those tests
Hugh:
These are very interesting photos...and add to the data base for this early period in the development of the 73 RSRs. Some observations: the flares in the last shot seem wider than the factory used on the final version of the RSRs. Why were the doors now white (probably changed out)...maybe they had been converted to aluminum and were simply painted white. It is also interesting that the driver's mirror was turned inward and unusable (but offering lower drag) for the tests...since no competing cars to worry about. And boy, look at the size of those rear tires....they were obviously using 11x15 Fuchs by November, 72.
The early prototype efforts by the factory are still a very fascinating subject for me.
Raj
I found some great historical TdC photos (and many others that I have not looked at yet) in that link you posted to raceline
Here are some fantastic photos of R1 and R2 at the TdC from that site
they show both cars before they got their numbers etc
R2 coming off the boat before the rally
R1 (waldegaard) in the event and
both cars parked (you have to look hard to see car 6 on the right of the photo) with one of the 1973 Monte carlo ST's that was used as a recce car at the TdC - probably 911 230 0047 - S AK 1337; the car used in the homologation photos for the group4 RSR's
Resurrecting a very old thread, I have these three photos in my archive... Sorry for watermarking them, but I hope you'll understand.
Are they of interest? Taken at same days as Mark Donohue was testing the 'variable wheelbase' 917/10, December 1972.
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...RSRRicard1.jpg
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...RSRRicard2.jpg
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...RSRRicard3.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by KS Carrera
(After raj's , ST? , was mentioned - I looked over at the Targa Florio thread that I had not looked at in a long while . And noticed this photo below) .
So where was the photo above - Paul Ricard Test Track ?
And so , does anyone think that these are the same car ?
It seems very similar to me, with the exception of a drivers door mirror added at Le Mans 4 Hrs. . Some padding around the Roll loop . And of course differant paint. Notice the same seamed rear flairs (look back at the other 2 photos of the test session in the previous post , to see the flairs there better).
In two of those the test session photo's, air foil plates are attached to the ducktail. In the one I brought to this post , they do not seem to be present.
Maybe this is a known fact that it's the same car ? I just thought i'd point out the similarities , in case they hadn't been noticed. Or it's not known of these 2 cars possibly being the same.
(Jan. 4th , 1973 : Le Mans 4 hr. Test , Manfred Shurti - Helmuth Koinigg / 4th overall) :
Amended post in view of Raj's comment below! ;)
And, yes, the photos I posted were all taken at the Paul Ricard circuit in December 1972
I read the 4 hour test dates wrong , not realising the euro type date .
April , not Jan.
Ah yes, of course! Thanks Raj… ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
Peekaboo asked in post #63 if the photo Keith posted at Paul Ricard and the the Le Mans 4 hour car #61 were the same car. Yes they are: it is R2 911 360 0020.
This is my understanding of the history of R2. I am sure there will be more gaps in its history to fill in, such as these wonderful photos of Keith's, however this is what i currently have recorded.
Built 10/1972, 911 360 0020 R2 was built with an oil door like on a 72 model year car from new. It was registered LEO ZA 69 and while initially light ivory was painted in red and white Malboro colors as was its sister car 911 360 0019 R1.
Both cars were entered in the 1972 Tour de Corse in early November 1972. R2 was the #2 car for Larousse and can easily be distinguished by the white triangle ending short of the fuel filler. R1, car #6 in the event, had the white triangle extending over the fuel filler. Photos of both cars are in post #61.
late November / December 1972
used as a test car at Paul Ricard to develop the RSR for track use. Keith has posted some great photos and I have some more at post #58.
January 1973: used for wind tunnel testing at Stuttgart university testing the Mary Stuart tail, chin spoiler, and aero packages for Daytona and Monza. appearance as at Paul Ricard and still with LEO ZA 69 plates.
April 1 1973 entered in Le Mans test and 4 hour race for Schurti/ Koinigg as car #61. see photo in post #63 above. By this time the livery had been changed to reflect the Martini sponsorship and the car was silver but still had the distinctive flared rear guards first constructed on it at Paul Ricard (and a chin Spoiler) - see photo.
Attachment 176642
on 13 may 1973 it was the Targa Florio car #9 for Kinnunen and Haldi and came third overall. It was still silver but got a distinctive red and blue roof, painted on at a garage / workshop at that event. It still had the distinctive rear flares from Paul Ricard and the 1972 style oil door. For the race it acquired a Mary Stuart tail.
Attachment 176643
following the Targa it went back to the factory to repair a damaged right rear side before being prepared for Le Mans as the Sonauto entered but effectively third factory car #48 for Gregg and Chasseuil where it came 14th overall and 7th in GTS. During that time at the factory not only was the damage repaired and the livery changed to yellow and green to go with Sonauto's BP sponsorship for the car, but the 1972 oil door and oil system was changed for an up to date one that also included external oil lines that had not been seen on this car before. The next photo show no oil door and external oil lines.
Attachment 176647
following Le Mans the car was once again used as a test bed - this time at the factory test track testing very wide wheels and aero (maybe for the following years turbo RSR's ??). It was still in the Le Mans livery as this photo shows.
Attachment 176648
Soon after these tests R2 was "restored" by the factory back as a "representative" example of the hugely successful Martini team cars that year for the museum. It should be noted that the final appearance of the car after the "restoration" was unlike anything the car had looked like in its career to date and indeed was also different in detail to any other martini team car that year. The restoration approach of creating a "representative" car has taken different details from the livery of different cars and the number from the race winner of the Targa Florio (although that number was used in a couple of different races - but by different cars)
After it was restored, and before it was put in the museum, it was "road tested" by Paul Frere for a magazine article. a picture taken during that test is below.
Attachment 176650
It has remained in the Museum ever since (although has been on visits to other places over time, notably in the late 1970s to Japan with a 917-30) and is broadly unchanged in appearance from the 1973 "restoration". It has been further restored at least once and in the process has acquired some extra decals (to offset some of the costs of the repaint?) that were not on it originally. This is not unusual for factory museum cars and more than one of them now have sponsorship showing that they never had when they were racing.
Great synopsis, Hugh. Very useful. Thanks!
Hi Raj
Yes ........
that is what we thought and we have discussed on this board to date.
However i have come into other information recently that the initial Mary Stuart aero work was done much earlier- in fact at the wind tunnel in Stuttgart in January 1973 using R2 straight after the Paul Ricard test. This was almost immediately after the Paul Ricard test and i would not be surprised to find out that the initial work on the Mary Stuart tail was done in December at Paul Ricard at the same time as Keith's photos.
The first time the Mary Stuart was seen in public was at Monza on R8 car #82 and R6 car #81 photos below.
Attachment 176664Attachment 176665
That was on 25 April 1973 and it was after then that they used them at the targa. Note the shot of R6 also shows the chin spoiler needed to balance out the aero at high speed when using the Mary Stuart,
Knowing how they work I found it surprising for this aero device to occur literally overnight. My (very good) information now is that the testing went back to the start of the year at least and the photos we have seen to date, and you have posted tonight are indeed after the targa and of RS 0002 in the wind tunnel but were not the original tests.
it is surprising how much new information and photos seems to be still coming out about this amazing test bed of cars in 1972 and 1973. I am sure there is still a lot to come out - just like Keiths photos showing a rear wing that you picked up as being almost the same as tested on the Strahle car over 6 months earlier.
KSCarrera (or Keith Seume) I sent you a PM
It is interesting that Porsche didn't use the winglets at the Daytona 24 in early Feb. 73, where the factory prepared RSRs ran under Penske and Brumos colors. They were entered in the prototype class and could have used any configuration aero devices. Maybe the factory was not yet convinced that the additional winglets added enough performance, although the front lip spoiler was added to both cars. Or maybe they felt the additional drag would not be useful at Daytona where much high speed time was on the oval part of the track where rear down force was not as useful.
Edit: Another possibility: Maybe there was not enough time before these 2 cars shipped to the US for adding the winglets.
Any photos around of R1's or R2's rear suspension ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by varunan123
Thx MUCH v123 ,
I was just looking for another previous thread to post something (will get to that later) , and I noticed this one and checked the semi recent posts . I'm certainly glad I did as I never caught this photo when you posted , nor have seen it before (photo in post #78).
Wouldn't this more likely actually be a pre-session for Monte Carlo 72 ? , SEB colors and Larrousse-Perramond (No. 4) was S-AX 1336 there. If not , was it some super early TdC 72 test session in another car than eventually ran ? (or this car was repainted & became either no. 2 / LEO-ZA 69 , or no. 6 / LEO-ZA 68 ??) .
I have this photo of an SEB car at Monte Carlo 72 ..... was S-AJ 5694 no. 15 / Waldegard ? Is this photo I'm just posting the race or practice (with roof rack & Alpine in snow) ? I believe it has to be practice as I do not see numbers , and normally there are some on the rear of every Monte C. entry.
Hope my questions are not too confusing.
**Thx again v123 , I see 917 calipers in the Post #78 photo. Unfortunately it's not clear or close enough to see if the reinforcement metal is on the trailing arms also. Anyone have any Focus software for a zoom-in & re-focus.
Hi Peekaboo
Let me try to answer these questions
the photo Raj posted in post #78 is almost certainly taken at the recce for the 1972 Tour de course in late September / early October 1972.
Here is another photo of both 1972 Monte Carlo cars, 9112300047 (S-AK 1337) and 9112300041 (S-AK1336) at that recce. These 2 cars must have been about the first cars to use the ducktail in anger, as it was still being developed as late as August 1972 and the two cars that actually competed in this event were not completed until October 1972.
Attachment 208792
Here is another photo of, i think 9112300047, as a support car at the event. You can see one of the actual cars that competed in the background.
Attachment 208793
The LEO-ZA cars were totally separate cars - actually either both were RS's (R1 0019 and R2 0020 as i think they were) or one was R2 and the other was a converted ST as the RS book and others say (however that information about one being an ex Waldegaard ST is now over 20 years old and much has been learned about these cars in that time). The S-AK cars are both still with us and the history through that year is relatively well established for both cars.
I have wondered about the car S-AJ 5694 that you have posted a picture of. The photo was taken at a recce or practice for the 1972 Monte Carlo and i have pictures of the magazine article by Lother Boschan that it was published in. I think that it may be a werks rally car from earlier years, probably a 1970 911S 2.2 rally. However i have been unable to identify it.
here is another photo of it at that recce, this time without the roof rack.
Attachment 208794
At the time Porsche was hard up for cash and had virtually abandoned the rally program in favor of the expensive 917 and prototype program and supporting customer 911's in track events. (they had just started working on the RSR program as well.) Therefore in a very unusual move for them they relied on an external sponsor, SEB, to fund the Monte Carlo effort.
The license plate it is wearing was also on a car at the Stuttgart university wind tunnel testing shown here testing lift with various versions of the new "S" front spoiler in March 1972 as a part of the RS development program. That would be some months after the Monte Carlo recce and i think it is the same car as you can see flared rear guards as well as the stickers over the holes where the rally lights had been.
Attachment 208795
Typically the factory was very "tight" in those days, recycling competition cars to recce duty, testing and then finally selling them off for whatever they could get for them. They did not risk a new car practicing or on a recce before an event so the photo Raj posted would not have been one of the cars that actually competed.
Thank you HughH for the very thorough info. (as normal). And the photo on the Sarthe thread also.
Don't I see an oil tank door on S-AJ 5964 in your Monte 72 (practice) photo with the escort ?
Yes there is an oil door...... And a 2.4 badge on the photo you posted. Hence why I always wondered about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by peekaboo
It is almost certainly not an actual monte car if it is also the car in the wind tunnel as the rally cars kept thr distinctive livery for much of the year and the wind tunnel car does not have it.
Also it would be a significant break with normal practice to use a car about to go on the event as a recce car. So apart from the license numbers that probably rules out the actual monte cars
However it looks like an ST so either it was a factory one that I don't have a record of, as it was used by the factory for testing later, or is an old rally car that was used as a preproduction or something test car for the 72 oil system and continued to be used as an R&D car
That is great info raj
I will see if I can match it at all
I was also thinking about what happened to 9110300001 the monte Carlo car from 1970
The other two cars of that series were in subsequent events but that one seemed to disappear. I am wondering if it became the factory test car you posted a video of a while ago seemingly testing wider rear track and without any rear fenders at all. It would not be a huge leap of imagination for such a test hack to be transformed with 72 oil tank etc
However your suggestion may be more likely
Raj
i have just got home and looked at my files
9112300013, while built in july 1971 and used by the factory until it was sold in june 73 to Gaban seems to have been a narrow body car at the time Gaban had it (at least that is the photo i have). It was also Gulf orange not tangerine and while the photos i have of the recce car at the monte are all black and white they dont really look as if they are gulf orange. Also i have seen a previous custodian of the car state explicitly that it was not raced but kept by the R&D department for the 2 years. I suppose being a recce car is not being raced but...........
so on reflection i dont think it was that car
by the way 9110300001 survives to this day in Germany i believe, and seemed to be used by Siffert as a recce car for the 1970 targa but disappears after that (at least to my records)
this is a photo from the video i mentioned above
Raj
I understood that the Gaban ST was not converted to wide body until being rebuilt after being found without engine etc in 1990. At least that is what elevenparts posted on their site a number of years ago.
here is a photo of some of the Lothar Boschen article
i cant find the rest at present. Given the SAB signage and the oil door i cant see how it can be any other than the 72 monte
somebody have pictures of he dashboard of this car?
Here are a few pics of S-AK 1337 as it looks today.
The dash is as it was back in the day except for the way in which Halda twin master and Heuers was mounted. All the rest of the dash it the original items, not similar ones , the ones.
The cars looks like it did in Monte Carlo Rally 72.
Leon
Leon:
The car looks fantastic. It is really great to be able to see it 'as it was', and now preserved forever. It deserves to be driven though, and I hope it gets to spend a little time carving up some tarmac somewhere.
the car looks great¡¡¡
I think rs27rules wanted to see a photo of one of the Tour de Corse 72 cars , but since your now on to the Monte 72 cars. Here's a period photo of what I have labeled (hopefully correctly) as S-AK 1336 , the Larousse - Perramond No. 4 entry dash.
Concerning dashboards , in looking over this thread just now (which now incompasses some other cars)...i'm wondering ...does anyone know the MY and chassis numbers of the 1978 Safari entries of Waldegard & Preston ?? In looking through photos i've saved of them . I'm seeing a dashpad in the Waldegard car No. 5 , that is 1976 or prior.....And I believe I see a rear body panel on the Preston car No. 14 , that was generally not used in production much past mid-1973 MY (sometime into early spring).
thanks for the dashboard pictureQuote:
Originally Posted by peekaboo
is nice to see a period photo
about the 1978 car, ill see if i can find the number
I think you mistyped 'period photo about the 1978 car' . Just to be clear , the photo I just previously posted above is the Larousse Monte Carlo 1972 car - presumably photographed in 1972.
Here is the interior of the Safari 1978 Preston car interior (no. 14 / S-DE 6393) , I was wrong when I spoke of the dash as the Waldegard Safari 78 car. This is the photo I was refering to.....it is actually the Preston car .....notice the speaker grill outline. As far as I know this type of dashpad was only available through 1976 MY. Of course that is for production availability.
The Safari 78 cars might be listed in the newer version of the Barth - Boschen book , I only have the original edition.
As far as I know this is period 1978 (I also have a contemporary photo from the factory museum showing the dash speaker grill outline even clearer).
yes, i see it nowQuote:
Originally Posted by peekaboo
about the zasada 911s, the car is still alive?
as i know, ran in argentina and more countries in 1967
but i can't find yet something in the forum
another old photoAttachment 254384
another one
Attachment 254507
Resurrecting an old thread.
By chance I saw a reference here that factory car R1 had been discovered, presumably this year, after not being positively sighted since the TdC in November 1972 and has been sold by John Starkey as a "restoration project"
the text says
Factory car "R1" 911 360 0019
Road registred LEO-ZA 68, owner : Porsche KG racing department
Tour de Corse 1972, car n°6
Ex-Bjorn Waldegaard
Used for testing
Sold
2014 offer for sale by John Starkey as a restoration project
Sold to present owner
and this photo (which I had never seen before) was also posted
Attachment 293105
I have to admit to being surprised at seeing this (or maybe I have been asleep for the past little while)
I would have thought the finding of the sister car to the factory Museum RSR and one of the two first RS /RSR's entered in competition might have raised a little more attention
I would be very interested to hear if anyone else knows any more :)
I think that may be we could see another RS-3 Pre-prototype #911 360 0003..... may be #0004... in a few years... may be abandoned in an old forgotten farm...
May be someone find in the an old forgotten Porsche AG folder, a document to see that It really existed....
Thanks Hugh!!
nice¡¡¡ i would love to see another restoration
Note the driver in this car . .Mark Donohue with his 1972 Helmet on. Lots of stories from him about he development of this car in his book and the foundations of the 1973 cars he raced with George Follmer. And of course the rest of the testing sessions evolved the Long Tail 917/30. Photos are just amazing!
Quote:
Originally Posted by HughH
Shame about all the missing content......real shame :(
A nice shot of LEO ZA 68 on the DDK pic thread:
http://www.ddk-online.com/phpBB2/vie...11&start=11160
Attachment 309806
Attachment 570903Attachment 570904Attachment 570905Attachment 570906
I did not know where to put these images... I think they are not here?
+
https://waft.be/assets/uploads/2017/...-13-scaled.jpg
Baudett
They are photos of the 1972 Werks ST 9112300841 later renumbered as RS 9113600002
It was used as a test mule for developing the RSR in particular entered by Strahle (but supported by factory mechanics and engineers) at the 1972 Osterreichring 1000Kms.
It usually carried the registration plate LEO ZA 60 and I have not seen it with LEO ZA 69 on it which was mostly on the RSR 9113600020 (R2) including at the TdC
The ST was used during and in the days after the 1000kms to test different configurations of rear tails (seen in these photos) as well as ABS braking systems etc. However I think the photos you have posted are possibly not at that session but back at the factory given the registration plate it is wearing (probably temporarily for convenience)
After the 1973 Targa Florio (By which time it was RS 0002and registered LEO ZA 60) it was used in further wind tunnel testing of refinements to the tail including the very wide "Mary Stuart" tail It was NOT at the TDC though. Here are some more photos of it at different stages
Attachment 570924Attachment 570925Attachment 570926Attachment 570927Attachment 570928
There is one more image that I did not publish because the registration has nothing to do with it, but I understand it has to have a "relationship" in some way. Maybe it's the "final" spoiler? But what vehicle is SY7590?Quote:
Originally Posted by HughH
and thanks for the explanation...So let's say,...these images would not go here
*Is there a post where all Zasa's vehicles are referenced?
Curious fact... In another version of the same book that I took this image from, they deleted the license plate...SY7590
Attachment 571003
In the version I have, there are 6 images and not 5 on the right side.
Why delete that vehicle?
Another reversion¿?
https://yumyum.fr/legende-automobile