To rebuild or not...

[John Straub]

Thought I would bring this up on a new thread.

With the discussion about whether the cars destroyed in the fire should be rebuilt or not. Cutting Vin #'s out can be done and put into a new chassis, it's been done for years on race cars. And what does that do to the historical record or value of the car? There are early 911 cars that have had the same thing done to them because of rust, and have sold for high dollar amounts. What's real and what's not. I guess it's really up to the owner to decide.

What do you guys think?

John

[BritishCarGuy]

My buddy did this with a Sunbeam Tiger. The body was rotten so he found a rust free Sunbeam Alpine in California and had it shipped. He transferred the VIN and everything else and didn't really think anything of it. Unfortunately some Tiger owners started calling fraud, much to his dismay, several years after the car was sold and his "fraud" Tiger was featured in one of their club magazines. I don't know what you 911 owners are like but the Tiger crowd seems to really dislike this sort of thing. Apparently there are some very minor differences between between the Tiger and Alpine bodies that can only really be picked out by those in the know, although its very easy to pass off a converted Alpine to a typical buyer. Like I said, I don't know what is acceptable with the 911 crowd, but with the prices rising and the buy/flip mentality we're seeing in the 911 market lately anybody buying one of those cars would probably want to know the history behind it and that they're getting a resurrected car and not the original.

And to be honest - how can you possibly possibly resurrect a Speedster, RS and RSR unless you can find another of the same?

[LongRanger]

. . . And to be honest - how can you possibly possibly resurrect a Speedster, RS and RSR unless you can find another of the same? . . .

It's only metal, Citizens. And --- as we've seen numerous times --- like here . . .
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...-of-a-RHD-2-2S

. . . metal can be cut, shaped, welded . . . and replaced


That RSR 'll come back, too. Not the same --- but, like a lotta other 'restored' cars . . . all those award-winning Cobras + Carreras + Ferraris --- any trace of damage/decay/imperfection . . . along w/ with every molecule of original paint, every scrap of first upholstery, yadda-yadda-yadda . . .

. . . EXPUNGED

And, yet? --- there they are . . . totally/completely/utterly restored-beyond-recognition . . . re-animated replicas of themselves! . . . even better than the Real Thing . . .

. . . some of 'em several times, even

And proudly so

'. . . award winning . . .'

I believe it's called --- wait for it . . . . . . . . . . . . restoration

Besides --- fire-damage didn't hurt this Ferrari's sale . . .
http://autoweek.com/article/car-life...ing-co-auction

The only question regarding any 'project' is ---- who's gonna step up?


I mean really --- what do you think happened to all those poor-poor little Ventura Speedsters?
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...=ventura+wreck

Scrapped?

Cut-up?

Disposed of?

Burial at sea, maybe?


Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii don't think so

For what they're worth 'done'? . . . cheap to fix. Great Story, too

. . . 'barns,' 'lake bottoms' . . . . 'damaged by fire' . . . . . . . . now 'brought back' . . .



My guess is? . . . . they're ALL still out there --- somewhere . . .

[Bullethead]

In the case of 550-001 a lot more than the handle and head were left on that axe. There are plenty of similarly significant cars that have been resurrected from less, but to address John's thread starting question, in nearly every instance chopping the VIN out of a corpse and building around it is never kosher for a street car. Even with some old racecars it's questionable. Equally true with desirable cars that have been "cut 'n shut", a practice that's illegal in most states and many countries.

Recently a VW 21 Deluxe was sold by Mecum that was all that and worse, dude paid $110K for a shiny POS. Hope he gets his money back.

[LongRanger]

. . . starting @post #15 . . .

http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...rch-2018/page2


Also . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5vGUcdLytE






.......................

[LongRanger]

. . . In the case of 550-001 a lot more than the handle and head were left on that axe . . .

Hm


'. . . car had been modified over the years and bore little resemblance to the aluminum racer that left Germany in 1953. What was now Spyder number one had a fiberglass body, later model 356 A brakes, no engine, and no gearbox . . .

. . . a couple of things that gave the car authenticity, even the fiberglass body told a story.

“You could see the rivets where the mold had been lifted off the original body,” remembers Gerry. “What happened was the body was cracking up and Mr. Lopez knew no one in Mexico who worked with aluminum, but he had a friend who built boats, fiberglass boats. They made a fiberglass duplicate of the aluminum body.”

Gerry’s client ended up not being the high bidder, he advised him that, “I don’t think you are young enough to see this thing to fruition. The roof is gone completely, the frame looks right. There is no engine, no gearbox, no brakes, all A stuff on it.”

The initial buyer changed his mind about a year into the restoration and the restorer arranged to sell the car to Miles Collier . . .'


Wonder why it's not on display at Collier's Revs Institute?



$einfeld's now?




........

[Unobtanium-inc]

Hm


'. . . car had been modified over the years and bore little resemblance to the aluminum racer that left Germany in 1953. What was now Spyder number one had a fiberglass body, later model 356 A brakes, no engine, and no gearbox . . .

. . . a couple of things that gave the car authenticity, even the fiberglass body told a story.

“You could see the rivets where the mold had been lifted off the original body,” remembers Gerry. “What happened was the body was cracking up and Mr. Lopez knew no one in Mexico who worked with aluminum, but he had a friend who built boats, fiberglass boats. They made a fiberglass duplicate of the aluminum body.”

Gerry’s client ended up not being the high bidder, he advised him that, “I don’t think you are young enough to see this thing to fruition. The roof is gone completely, the frame looks right. There is no engine, no gearbox, no brakes, all A stuff on it.”

The initial buyer changed his mind about a year into the restoration and the restorer arranged to sell the car to Miles Collier . . .'


Wonder why it's not on display at Collier's Revs Institute?



$einfeld's now?




........

From what I can gather it's been traveling for several years, making different shows, it is in high demand. I last saw it at The Quail.

---Adam

[Bullethead]

Hm

'. . . car had been modified over the years and bore little resemblance to the aluminum racer that left Germany in 1953. What was now Spyder number one had a fiberglass body, later model 356 A brakes, no engine, and no gearbox . . .

. . . a couple of things that gave the car authenticity, even the fiberglass body told a story.

“You could see the rivets where the mold had been lifted off the original body,” remembers Gerry. “What happened was the body was cracking up and Mr. Lopez knew no one in Mexico who worked with aluminum, but he had a friend who built boats, fiberglass boats. They made a fiberglass duplicate of the aluminum body.”

Gerry’s client ended up not being the high bidder, he advised him that, “I don’t think you are young enough to see this thing to fruition. The roof is gone completely, the frame looks right. There is no engine, no gearbox, no brakes, all A stuff on it.”

The initial buyer changed his mind about a year into the restoration and the restorer arranged to sell the car to Miles Collier . . .'


Wonder why it's not on display at Collier's Revs Institute?

As seen on a recent visit, it is, alongside a fiberglass copy. No doubt the car was largely fabricated, but as rarities go it retains more of it's bones than many others.

[Yellow491]

Has any one seen the car in detail,it may not need the vin welding in something else.Why assume this at this stage,i have seen cars a lot worse than this restored.its deff worth doing if nothing more than keeping the original tub alive and on the road where it belongs.
The porsche community can not afford to loose such special cars as this.I for one would not be afraid to tackle it as a great historic racer once again,the only problem is the expense of getting the car back to any where near its former glory,and sadly it will never be what it was.

[Richardnew]

Any number of cars are restored around the chassis plate. Last year I looked at a Lola T70 at Amelia. I had a Lola expert look at the car for me. His report was that " the chassis plate is an original."

btw - The FIA no longer certifies the provenance of the car. They simply say that it conforms to the FIA standards for that model year. Here's an explanation.

Richard Newton
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