1970 911S - how much does provenance contribute to value?

[brookedale091462]

Just some anecdotal evidence....
I bought a car ( another brand) with the story that "it may have..." been owned by a famous person who raced it. I tracked down the driver who recommended I look for signs of a certain paint they used. One day I was detailing the car and started to work away on the underside of the fender. I found the silver paint was laid over a unique blue. Later when I sold the car I included the paint sample in a freezer bag. The evidence and discussions with a previous owner led to a 30%++ premium to market prices at the time. If I had not sold it though I would probably be even better off !

It counts. How much is the imponderable. A car that can be traced back to Steve McQueen is a perfect example. A documented racer might be another.

In some cases you're going to pay a lot for the documentation and the car is almost thrown in. Those are rare though.

I've seen a couple of Corvette race cars pulled off the market in the past few months because the documentation didn't back up the story. A case of all hat with no cattle.

You can never go wrong with documentation. It's just hard to place a number on it. More is always better though. I save every receipt and photo I can.

Richard Newton
Selling at Auctions

[Tom F.]

Mike: Based on my experience buying and selling old Porsches, the history makes a substantial difference. However, the difference might be more in how long it takes to sell a car, as opposed to how much you can sell it for. Sometimes the history shows bad as well as good. For instance, occasional winter use could be inferred from the records of a car that I once had, even though it was represented as never having seen winter. Of lesser impact, but still meaningful, a history might show that a car lived its life in the Northeast, which is a turn off for some. That said, I can see a 5%, or so, premium based on the history that you describe. If your car had any repaint or body work, photos of the process are a huge plus, bigger in my opinion that a "biography" of the car. It looks as though you have a beautiful car, there! - Tom

[mhackney]

Tom, thanks for the feedback. That makes sense!

cheers,
Michael

[NorthernThrux]

The history of the car is certainly nice to have, regardless of any famous owners. It's also a great thing to try to assemble while you wait for your car to be restored (if that were the case). I have had correspondence with all 7 owners of my car, going all the way back to the original owner's son (original owner had passed away). You learn about the dings and scratches and seat and wheel replacements, the almost ruining at a chop show, the cop who bought it, the kid who crunched a fender, the mice who nested in the cylinder heads causing overheating, the colour changes etc. etc. etc.
I, for one, value that stuff. I have only a few bills and records, but I have the entire 42 year story.

The clock is now reset to zero. Everything that was wrong has been put right. Every nut, bolt, screw and thread is correct. But I know the story and it started with this man.

[LongRanger]

. . . I was trying to establish what, if any, value there is in very detailed documented history and provenance . . . When and if I am ready to sell, I will post with a stated price but I'm not there yet . . .

Looks like . . .
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...ght=9110300237





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[ejboyd5]

Silverbullit, I had posted a version of this earlier this week that was very sales-like without a price. I exchanged messages with the moderator and emphasized that I was trying to establish what, if any, value there is in very detailed documented history and provenance. I stripped out all the particulars about the car to focus on this perspective. That's what's here. When and if I am ready to sell, I will post with a stated price but I'm not there yet. Regards, Michael

So this entire thread is nothing more than pre-sale hype.

[mac73s]

It is even worse than it appeared. Hackney engaged Shaun @Tru 6 (yes, the plating guy) to 'market' this car on early S and Pelican (where they are both members) and I ended up buying it in October 2015. Shaun was the real pitch man in this duo and documentation of how he hyped the car is still on the internet....original, matching numbers, never messed with example, and he backed up these claims with him saying he had 25+ years of Porsche experience, blah, blah, blah. I drove 500 miles, and indeed the paperwork provenance was stunning. Because of that, I took an overly casual look at the engine number...yes, it matched the numbers on the paperwork...and I pulled the trigger., lady (I guess) paying up because I wanted a car with such provenance and most importantly, a true matching numbers car. My plan was to do a full restoration - which I did - but I had pulled and parked the engine in 2015 because it had been rebuilt in the past and seemingly needed nothing. I never gave the engine number another thought from my cursory look at it in Hackney's somewhat dark garage because I felt these guys could be trusted.
After all, they were Early S and Pelican guys...silly me. I could write pages of drama, but suffice to say that in the end, I discovered that the engine number was an obvious (and poorly done) re-stamp on a machined surface that no longer had the 'stars' that should precede and follow the numbers. Yes, I still have photos of it if anyone is interested. Yes, I engaged an attorney because Hackney and Shaun went radio silent when I raised the issue with them, and rather than chase more money down more rat holes, I told my attorney to stop my action against them. They won, I lost, and they have to live with what they did. Never a single expression of remorse, excuse, explanation, nothing, nada....not even a crummy gift certificate to Starbucks. Shaun continues to market his plating 'preparation' business (best I know is he actually does NONE of the plating) and he has his following on Early S. Hate to see any of our members give him even a dollar, but nothing I can control there. So, Porsche guys can be just as dishonest as the worst that is out there.

[mac73s]

Yes - just a middleman is my understanding. I had asked, before engaging an attorney, for them to do the right thing and sought what I felt was a very fair settlement. I never asked or expected them to buy the car back. I paid what I (and they) seemed to agree was the then market price for an 'original, matching number car, no stories, etc. that could have been driven as is but it was showing its age and my goal was to obtain the perfect candidate for one of my full restorations. In essence, I was looking for the difference between a car that in fact did NOT have its original engine and the common wisdom seems to be 10-20% less than one that still retained its original engine with 'not messed with' original factory stamping. Only when there was no response after a few weeks, I alerted Hackney that I had no choice but to seek an attorney....his then response was to provide me with his attorney's name and phone number. I live in Virginia and unfortunately purchased the car in Massachusetts and my attorney is not barred in Massachusetts so I was left with seeking unknown counsel and they were useless. I simply chose to close this ugly (and ONLY) unfortunate car experience I've had. All that goes around comes around. I know what Hackney paid for the car in 2001 or 2002 and the made a TON of money on the car. I easily lost $50K and 18 months of hard restoration labor on this ordeal over the price (about $110K) I paid for the car. I sold it to CCS Motors in Oyster Bay, NY...just wanted it out of my garage, and yes, CCS Motors purchased the car with full disclosure from me that it was NOT a matching numbers car, but never-the-less, a stunning restoration.

[nickb4]

There was a similar incident where a longtime, very well respected member here on this site sold a '69S as numbers matching engine and trans. Turns out the trans was not matching. The buyer, like you, did not find resolution with the seller however the difference was the buyer immediately went public and posted the gory details both here and on Pelican outing the seller. Long story short the well respected seller lost in the court of public opinion (including comments from Wayne himself from Pelican) and the seller packed his bags and left the forums - including deleting thousands of his posts here one by one.

[mac73s]

Here is a photo of the obviously corrupted original engine number pad...ground at the left edge, machined and restamped. You can see some evidence marks at the first number 6...looks like various trial and error stamps. I was able to talk with the the car's original owner and one other (the miracle of the internet) and neither of them offered any clue - or responsibility - for ever having replaced the engine or re-stamping.