Effect of VW emissions scandal on early Porsche values

[merbesfield]

We own a Q5 diesel, so I'm with you. These morons should have fallen on their swords and admitted ALL of their wrongdoings once they were caught. Instead, they claimed that these other diesels were unaffected, and the EPA went back to the drawing board, put them through even more rigorous testing, and found out that they were lying YET AGAIN.

What cracks me up is that everyone is talking about a 'fix' for this. There is no fix. If they could have built a car with those power, economy, and emissions numbers they would have in the first place. What they are going to do is reflash these cars with software that diminishes either power or economy (or some combination of both) in order to meet the stated EPA numbers. Either way, the car will then no longer resemble the specification at which they sold it to us.

I want to drive my car into the dealership and get my money back minus a negotiated amount for wear and tear and mileage plus the portion of sales tax we paid at time of purchase. This wear and tear allowance will have to come from Corporate VW and it will have to be VERY generous to me as the owner of a car that was sold mis-represented. There isn't any other way out of this. We bought our cars assuming they would hold a certain amount of value over time. My guess is that the used market for one of these 'fixed' diesels will be a buyers market to say the least.

-Cheated in NY.

The only winners will be the lawyers. I definitely feel like I bought a boat anchor. I took our Cayenne in for an oil service. Figured since is was new I should let the "dealer" do it. $250.00 for an oil change. WTF. Should have known better. They are making a killing off new car service. I really hate new cars for so many reasons, all related to money and cost of ownership.

[StephenAcworth]

From today's Guardian newspaper:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/...che-claims-epa

2015-11-02 04.51.53 pm.jpg

[merbesfield]

The last paragraphs of the article. I don't believe this for a second.

The company has hired the accountancy firm Deloitte and the law firm Jones Day to investigate who fitted the device into its vehicles. It is understood that the carmaker believes a group of between 10 and 20 employees were at the heart of the scandal.

Martin Winterkorn stepped down as chief executive of VW as a result of the scandal. His replacement, Müller, last week vowed to be “ruthless in punishing those involved”, adding: “We are leaving no stone unturned to find out what exactly happened and to make sure nothing like this ever happens again.”

[stout]

Either way, the car will then no longer resemble the specification at which they sold it to us.

I want to drive my car into the dealership and get my money back minus a negotiated amount for wear and tear and mileage plus the portion of sales tax we paid at time of purchase. This wear and tear allowance will have to come from Corporate VW and it will have to be VERY generous to me as the owner of a car that was sold mis-represented.

With a leased TDI in the driveway that we'd like to return, with you all the way.

The solution laid out above would be a stand-up way for VW to own the mess, deal with it, and maybe even restore some faith among its customers—though it still doesn't account for duping owners and leasees into polluting at unacceptable and illegal levels. And we're not talking about 5-10% here… Is there a willingness on VW's part to do the right thing? I've heard no real indication so far, and today's news isn't reassuring. No buy back offers for customers, no stated commitment to customers, only statements that "the cars are safe to keep driving" while we wait for a "fix" (performance? emissions? component longevity?) that will take years to implement on 11+ million cars. Even if VW had a willingness to take the high road, will it have enough money to do the right thing? I doubt it.

Truth in Engineering? Unbelievable. And now Porsche is accused. What was that Ferry used to say? "The most important thing is to maintain our independence…" or something very similar. Rings truer than ever.

[Haasman]

I have heard multiple times that VW wanted to create their own diesel pollution reduction system technology, instead of using the now widespread DEF system.

The DEF system utilized urea to reduce the nitrogen oxide (NOx) emission. The DEF system coupled with "high PSI direct fuel injection" and the now required low sulfur diesel fuels has become an effective way to meet EPA's 1990's mandate to further lower diesel cars, trucks, engines and even large ship's emissions. Again VW believe they could accomplish the same without using the DEF system. I don't recall ever reading about what VW was going to use.

Here is a bit of background on the DEF system from http://www.dieselforum.org

WHAT IS SCR?

Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) is an advanced active emissions control technology system used in diesel engines.

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What is Selective Cataytic Reduction?

Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) is an advanced active emissions control technology system that injects a liquid-reductant agent through a special catalyst into the exhaust stream of a diesel engine. The reductant source is usually automotive-grade urea, otherwise known as Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF). The DEF sets off a chemical reaction that converts nitrogen oxides into nitrogen, water and tiny amounts of carbon dioxide (CO2), natural components of the air we breathe, which is then expelled through the vehicle tailpipe.
SCR technology is designed to permit nitrogen oxide (NOx) reduction reactions to take place in an oxidizing atmosphere. It is called "selective" because it reduces levels of NOx using ammonia as a reductant within a catalyst system. The chemical reaction is known as "reduction" where the DEF is the reducing agent that reacts with NOx to convert the pollutants into nitrogen, water and tiny amounts of CO2. The DEF can be rapidly broken down to produce the oxidizing ammonia in the exhaust stream. SCR technology alone can achieve NOx reductions up to 90 percent.

Why is SCR important?

SCR technology is one of the most cost-effective and fuel-efficient technologies available to help reduce diesel engine emissions. All heavy-duty diesel truck engines produced after January 1, 2010 must meet the latest EPA emissions standards, among the most stringent in the world, reducing particulate matter (PM) and nitrogen oxides (NOx) to near zero levels. SCR can reduce NOx emissions up to 90 percent while simultaneously reducing HC and CO emissions by 50-90 percent, and PM emissions by 30-50 percent. SCR systems can also be combined with a diesel particulate filter to achieve even greater emission reductions for PM. In the commercial trucking industry, some SCR-equipped truck operators are reporting fuel economy gains of 3-5 percent. Additionally, off-road equipment, including construction and agricultural equipment, must meet EPA's Tier 4 emissions standards requiring similar reductions in NOx, PM and other pollutants.
Where is SCR used?

SCR has been used for decades to reduce stationary source emissions. In addition, marine vessels worldwide have been equipped with SCR technology, including cargo vessels, ferries and tugboats. With its superior return in both economic and environmental benefits, SCR is also being recognized as the emissions control technology particularly helpful in meeting the U.S. EPA 2010 diesel engine emission standards for heavy-duty vehicles and the Tier 4 emissions standard for engines found in off-road equipment. SCR systems are also found in the growing number of diesel passenger vehicles.
What are the special considerations of using SCR?

One unique aspect of a vehicle or machine with an SCR system is the need for replenishing Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) on a periodic basis. DEF is carried in an onboard tank which must be periodically replenished by the operator based on vehicle operation. For light-duty vehicles, DEF refill intervals typically occur around the time of a recommended oil change, while DEF replenishment for heavy-duty vehicles and off-road machines and equipment will vary depending on the operating conditions, hours used, miles traveled, load factors and other considerations.
DEF is an integral part of the emissions control system and must be present in the tank at all times to assure continued operation of the vehicle or equipment. Low DEF supply triggers a series of escalating visual and audible indicators to the driver or operator. Once the tank reaches a certain level near empty, the starting system may be locked out the next time the vehicle is used, preventing the vehicle from being started without adequate DEF. A nationwide DEF distribution infrastructure has rapidly expanded to meet the needs of a growing SCR technology marketplace.
On-board tanks to store DEF are typically located in the spare tire area of passenger vehicles, while tractor trailers typically have a DEF tank alongside the diesel fuel saddle tank. Proper storage of DEF is required to prevent the liquid from freezing at temperatures below 12 degrees Fahrenheit, and most vehicle DEF dispensing systems have warming devices.
What is DEF?

Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) is a non-toxic fluid composed of purified water and automotive grade aqueous urea. DEF is available with a variety of storage and dispensing methods. Storage options consist of various size containers such as bulk, totes and bottles or jugs. The American Petroleum Institute rigorously tests DEF to ensure that it meets industry-wide quality standards.
DEF is available for purchasing at various locations like truck stops, truck dealerships and engine distributors which can be located using one of the below links. DEF tanks range in size from 6 to 23 gallons depending on the truck's application. The DEF tank fill opening is designed to accommodate a DEF fill nozzle to ensure only DEF is put into the tank. A diesel fuel nozzle will not fit into the DEF tank opening.
Most truck manufacturers calculated operating costs of new SCR-equipped vehicles based on a DEF price of $3 per gallon, however, the price of DEF is expected to respond to market conditions of supply and demand and is expected to decrease due to the growing network of DEF supply.
Need DEF? Check out the DEF Locators below to find it near you!

DEF is widely available in bulk dispensers and in jugs in truck stops and other retail locations across the country. The links below will help you find a DEF dispensing location.
Discover DEF
FindDEF

[boxster03]

Our good friend Jerry Brown will pull all effected VW's off the road via a failed smog test - you have 2/3/4 choices

Park it
Burn it
Sue for damages

[Haasman]

Oh I don't think old Jerry would like choice #2 ....

The VW scandal continues to get worse .... amazing.

[stout]

VW is denying the 3.0-liter TDI engines have the defeat device. Will be interesting to see how that turns out, but the damage is done on the 2.0s alone.

[boxster03]

I think we can pin it all on a young rogue engineer - fire him and everything is just fine - back to business as usual

[sithot]

Fixed:

Stroemungstransformator

Can you pronounce it? 😉