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Thread: From Factbox: Diesel engines and how VW's 'defeat device' worked

  1. #1
    Senior Member Haasman's Avatar
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    From Factbox: Diesel engines and how VW's 'defeat device' worked

    Some good background on diesel engines and then the VW defeat device explanation. Not a lot of new information for a lot of us ... but good overview


    From http://news.yahoo.com/factbox-diesel...--finance.html


    Factbox: Diesel engines and how VW's 'defeat device' worked

    (Reuters) - Germany's Volkswagen
    <vowg_p.de>, the world's largest automaker by sales, has admitted it had rigged emissions tests in diesel-powered vehicles in the United States and U.S. authorities said on Monday they would widen their probe to other automakers.
    The following are some facts about diesel car engines, the tailpipe pollution they emit and the "defeat device" software that federal regulators say VW used to circumvent emissions standards set by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the state of California.


    DIESEL ENGINES - They are higher compression than gasoline engines and do not require spark plugs or distributors. They tend to be more durable and less prone to expensive early repairs. However, they require more frequent oil, air and fuel filter changes, to prevent damage to fuel injectors.


    DIESEL FUEL - It is less refined and more energy dense than gasoline, converting heat into energy more efficiently, sending less heat out the tailpipe than gas-powered vehicles. It used to be cheaper at the pump than gasoline, which was a selling point for diesel cars, but in the United States, its price is currently above the price for gas.


    FUEL ECONOMY - Diesels can get up to 30 percent more miles per gallon of fuel than similar gas powered cars and can be more economical than gasoline-electric hybrids.


    PERFORMANCE - Because of their higher compression, diesel engines generate a lot of torque, providing strong acceleration and pulling/towing power. Diesel cars once had a reputation for being noisy and slow. More recent diesels from VW and other manufacturers have attacked those shortcomings with turbochargers, more precise combustion and additional hardware to curb emissions.


    EMISSIONS - Because diesel fuel is heavier and oilier than gasoline it can be more polluting, earning a reputation for sootiness when it came into wider U.S. automotive use during the 1970's oil crisis. But the pollution from diesel engines is mainly nitrogen compounds. They emit lower amounts of carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons and carbon dioxide than does gasoline.


    POLLUTION CONTROLS - The biggest challenge for automakers is controlling emissions of nitrogen oxides, or NOX. Many automakers use pollution control systems that inject a derivative of urea into the exhaust-cleaning process, in order to meet strict U.S. and European standards.


    COST - Because of the extra equipment and process needed to clean their diesel exhaust, diesel cars are more expensive than their gasoline counterparts.


    VW'S DEFEAT DEVICE - The software switched on when the automobiles were being tested for compliance with EPA standards, turning off during normal driving to allow maximum engine performance. The algorithm used information about how the car was being steered, how long the engine ran and atmospheric pressure to "precisely track" the conditions that corresponded to a federal emissions test, according to the EPA.

    Sources: CarandDriver.com; Carsdirect.com; Dummies.com, Auto Repair For Dummies, 2nd Edition,
    (Compiled by Alden Bentley; Editing by Joseph White and Christian Plumb)
    </vowg_p.de>

    Haasman

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  2. #2
    It seems an interesting muddle and I was surprised VW rolled over quite so easily.

    Without reading the requirements in great detail there are few questions that spring to mind.

    If the mandatory emission requirements are specified to be measured under very specific and repeatable conditions, which on the face of it doesn't seem unreasonable and there is no mandatory requirement specified under normal driving conditions - which is the case in the EU - then how can VW be caught?

    If the only recognised measurements are made using the 'test map' in the EMS and there is no way of 'officially' checking emissions whilst driving normally I would have thought VW should be in the clear - at least from a legal perspective.

    Having been a supplier of Automotive Test Rigs used for FMVSS compliance for many years we always ensured that we only measured and provided the 'minimum' information required on test reports and most machines had a 'test' mode and a 'development' mode with regard to the amount and type data stored and provided.

    It will be interesting to see what unfolds but my initial reaction is that the CEO wimped out way to quickly.

    Time will tell

  3. #3
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    Actually the cheat was fairly simple. Just use on map when only the front wheels are rotating. When all 4 wheels rotate use another map.

    No one has mentioned what this will do the dealers. This is going to kill them. A VW dealership is worth nothing this morning.

    Interestingly the Porsche family controls most of the VW voting shares. The VW CEO had to have checked with the Porsche family once they got caught. Right now the Porsche family is driving this bus. They can't be too happy about their reduction in net worth. I look for a big management change in the next 6 months.

    It's going to take VW decades to recover. Look how long it took Audi - and no one even proved they did anything wrong. Here VW admits to selling people defective cars. That can't help one bit.

    Just keep an eye on what the Porsche family is up to.

    Richard Newton

  4. #4
    Detroit Diesel did something very similar a few years back; maybe that's where VW got the idea! It will be interesting to watch if any vendors -- Bosch --get implicated unless VW had the in-house capability to engineer and build the defeat device all by themselves. Also wonder if F. Piech had something to do with it. Time will tell.
    John Schiavone

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  5. #5
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    The moral depavity and arrogance it takes to concoct and perpetuate a trespass like this at a corporate level and think you would never get busted is beyond astounding.

    Not a stretch to connect the dots and believe this is SOP for many CEO's and companies.

    With the peanut guy going to prison for the rest of his life maybe they'll re-think this culture.

  6. #6
    When we emissions test cars in the UK for a cars annual inspection it is carried out under defined conditions with the car stationary.

    Cars that have been re-mapped are tested just the same way to the same standard and it is common practice for maps to be changed before testing.

    I agree that this isn't being carried out on a industrial scale but I wonder how different this is to the fitting of air pumps to dilute emissions when the legislators used percentages instead of totals.

    I suspect the real trick is to write regulations more effectively otherwise someone will inevitably look for a loophole.

    If using different maps 'adaptively' isn't forbidden then someone was always going to take advantage.

    It is becoming more commonplace with petrol engined performance cars which change maps depending on how they are driven so both their power delivery characteristics and emissions will change on an almost continuous basis and it will be very difficult to monitor.

    The only way forward seems to be a system where the individual car logs and monitors its own performance and when it doesn't meet the necessary requirements will limit its output.


    What a terrible thought and more reason to drive old cars which are exempt from all of these problems.

    My old Diesel Passat runs on Cooking Oil quite happily and is old enough not to be emissions tested and is very cost effective but probably not very green.
    Last edited by chris_seven; 09-23-2015 at 04:11 AM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Beck View Post
    The moral depavity and arrogance it takes to concoct and perpetuate a trespass like this at a corporate level and think you would never get busted is beyond astounding.

    Not a stretch to connect the dots and believe this is SOP for many CEO's and companies.

    With the peanut guy going to prison for the rest of his life maybe they'll re-think this culture.
    At least there was accountability and the CEO resigned, unlike the banking CEOs here who didn't even lose their bonuses after 2008.
    David

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  8. #8
    Senior Member CurtEgerer's Avatar
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    So an ignition switch defect causing 124 deaths results in a $900 million slap on the hand for General Motors. VW games the EPA's convoluted emissions rules (which are themselves a result of millions of $$ of political lobbying by special interests) and is facing an $18 Billion fine and possible jail time for those involved. Seems about right. The only thing worse in today's world than a crime against humans, is a crime against our Lord and savior Gaia. Or a lion named Cecil.

  9. #9
    I am of a similar opinion. I feel like they can wiggle out of this one because they passed the tests, so therefore they are allowed to sell cars. I'm not sure exactly how the law is worded though. Seems CARB might have more strict wording to the effect that cars must be legal at all times. There were rumors about mobile emissions testing like a DUI checkpoint but I don't believe that has happened yet.

    What I have heard is that there was a university studying how modern diesels are so much cleaner than old ones and they tested a TDI and found it emitted 40 times the legal NOx limit, VW said it was due to test conditions, vehicle anomalies, etc. Then the EPA tested more and found the same thing, also called BS on the VW explanations. Then they discovered the different maps and VW admitted.

    Still, seems that if they pass the specified tests they are legal.

    Quote Originally Posted by chris_seven View Post
    It seems an interesting muddle and I was surprised VW rolled over quite so easily.

    Without reading the requirements in great detail there are few questions that spring to mind.

    If the mandatory emission requirements are specified to be measured under very specific and repeatable conditions, which on the face of it doesn't seem unreasonable and there is no mandatory requirement specified under normal driving conditions - which is the case in the EU - then how can VW be caught?

    If the only recognised measurements are made using the 'test map' in the EMS and there is no way of 'officially' checking emissions whilst driving normally I would have thought VW should be in the clear - at least from a legal perspective.

    Having been a supplier of Automotive Test Rigs used for FMVSS compliance for many years we always ensured that we only measured and provided the 'minimum' information required on test reports and most machines had a 'test' mode and a 'development' mode with regard to the amount and type data stored and provided.

    It will be interesting to see what unfolds but my initial reaction is that the CEO wimped out way to quickly.

    Time will tell
    1971 911S, 2.7RS spec MFI engine, suspension mods, lightened
    Early 911S Registry Member #425

  10. #10
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    VW obviously thought they would lose a significant market share with compromised performance; that's why they chose this path. They would have been better off opening a U.S. "tuning" arm of the company that offered warranty compliant "performance tunes" after the vehicles were sold to retail buyers. Offering a tune for say... $299, they would have sold like grandma's cookies.
    While this may also be controversial at least they would have operated within the law.

    They must have sent all of the attorneys on a vacation while scheming this out.

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