the brown/ tan / beige carpet thread

[Adore911]

Prior to the above I first wanted to see an all original car with the 42 interior and after a while we found this:

[Adore911]

The carpet referred to at the start of this thread as the "Franz" carpet, matches quite perfectly what I have seen as 42 carpet.

[fgmec]

...the color can fade dramatically over 40+ years...

Another example of a rear seat from ebay:

[merbesfield]

I think you are referring to Haargarn carpet, which was typically seen in black/gray, brown/tan and also could be ordered in other colors as seen here in this link. Last time I checked, Global didn't carry the Tan. The problem is that no one manufactures the tan any longer. I did find one supplier who sent me a sample of carpet he had manufactured and it looks correct. The challenge is he makes the carpet. I have to get someone else to produce the interior w the bindings etc. I do not have the info at home. If someone is interested in going in on a group order let me know. I need carpet for my Sepia Brown 73S and will be ordering it soon.

http://www.globalupholstery.com/prod...rn-carpet.html

[911MRP]

Hugh/all

Does anything on these 72/3 911 page extracts from my old factory binder that covers 70-76 help as a reference in the discussion ?

Some model-year pages in the same maroon binder are actual (carpet, seat, headliner,leather etc) swatch samples but these two years in my copy are just photo images for some reason.

AtB

Steve

[merbesfield]

Hugh/all

Does anything on these 72/3 911 page extracts from my old factory binder that covers 70-76 help as a reference in the discussion ?

Some model-year pages in the same maroon binder are actual (carpet, seat, headliner,leather etc) swatch samples but these two years in my copy are just photo images for some reason.

AtB

Steve

One thing that stands out as strange to me is the wording "nylon-velour". This makes me think these samples are the later carpets (74+). I think the Haagran carpet is Wool. The other two carpet samples shown appear to be a loop pile and a Perlon, which you can see was only available on the T and E. I believe the S got the nicer carpet option. Is there a page missing by chance? Eric Linden has weighed in on this subject before, but at the moment he is busy with his fathers passing and family priorities. He has factory pages as well if I recall.

[911MRP]

Hi Mark,

What I posted above is definitely not 74 + model year as each page in binder is clearly marked with model year top right corner -- so not sure why you think that I'd posted later document?

As mentioned there is a similar set of pages in same book for 74 model year -- and several other years before and after the extracts I chose to post. For example two below from different section with 74 clearly marked:

Always possible page/s have gone missing from used lose leaf ring binder that is many decades old. However it is certainly an original factory document from that era presumably for use by dealers rather than the more common small interior sample folded card leaflet given out to prospective customers. Suspect given the slightly different formats over years -- loose leaf punched updates marked with model year -- new MY sections were added to large binder rather like the supplements for dealership other maroon binders.

Be interesting if somone else is in a position to show their similar factory binder documents to compare. Given thread, I deliberately posted just the 72 and 73 page 911 excerptsto provide back in the day factory reference hoping to help the discussion.

Information I've shared is not taken from a later third-party website becase they may not be a correct reference to as to "in-period authenticity" of terms, materials, colour, etc. Nor are later reproductions always faithful in answering questions of what it was really like back when new.

If it helps, the maroon 72/3 Factory Parts book does differentiate the two different quality levels of carpet you mention. Perlon and velours. No mention that other term "haagran" in the in-period parts book carpet description as far as I can see -- so not sure where that particular term originates from?

Happen to have new old stock example of the lower cost version -- Perlon in black still with factory early part number sticker -- no use to me as it is very obviously different to the version original to and still fitted to my 73 Model. Not just S, factory M472 conversion received the same "velours" carpet as used in contemporary 73 S. Iirc carpet upgrade was an option on T and on iirc more "luxury" E variants that were offered in some markets?

I have black colour interior, so the brown variants is not something I've looked into until I saw Hugh's thread. I'm certainly no expert on old Porsche carpets, so open to be corrected and learn.

Just sharing (from a possibly an uncommon source?) Porsche original reference interior trim information that I happen to have on my shelf. Specifically selected 72-73 years to provide some "facts" on brown carpets. Thought it useful being from a traceable old factory source document.

Hope it helps

Best

S

[merbesfield]

Steve, what I was meaning about different years is that don't the Europeans have a one year variation from our US cars, esp when they were referring to the older years. Another words, they call a car a 72, but in the US it was a 73. Am I making any sense? Not sure when that changed, but I think it was around 74. The term Haargran carpet is what the Upholstry companies call it. It is also referred to by some as Hogshair. No clue who or where these names came from. The Black/salt and pepper Haargarn is readily available, it is the Tan/brown that has been the challenge. As for the wording Velour, this is a term used to described the later carpets, 74+ from the suppliers. IIRC, carpets for pre 74 cars are listed as Perlon or Haargarn (which was the link I posted above for Globals site). Here is the description from one of the sites.

Haargran: Original in early 911 Porsches and in contemporary Italian cars, Haargarn is all natural carpet woven, not tufted, in the old-fashioned way. Imported from the OEM supplier.

Sorry, I got busy today and was not able to post the pics I have of Tan carpet samples. Will try again tomorrow.

[merbesfield]

I just found this supplier as well. I have requested a sample. So the Tan/brown Haargran does exist.

http://classicandeuropean.com/produc...argarn-carpet/

[911MRP]

Hi Mark

Thanks for posting the sample photo and link to a current supplier; it might be useful for folks seeking modern replacements.

We are possibly at cross purposes so confusing one another. I posted factory documents to provide reference information on what factory advised dealers etc was fitted in 72 and 73 -- shows images, the numbers, description terminology prevailing at the time. Did so in case it is helpful. Not current suppliers of carpet because the thing they produce may (or may not) be faithful to originals and may use those different words to now the original Porsche perlon or velour carpet parts

One thing that stands out as strange to me is the wording "nylon-velour". This makes me think these samples are the later carpets (74+).

The document I posted shows the carpet valid for 1972 Model-year and 1973 Model-year (Modelle). It clearly says valid for 911 model 1972 and 1973 year (the cycle that Porsche work to for their model year updates not calendar year). This "valid for" and "model year" is stated at top of each sheet I posted, like in this example:

Steve, what I was meaning about different years is that don't the Europeans have a one year variation from our US cars, esp when they were referring to the older years. Another words, they call a car a 72, but in the US it was a 73. Am I making any sense?

Think I get your drift but weren't they were all European originally just some of production run got shipped and eventually arriving and being registered someplace in the USA. A delivery lead time for a particular car might confuse matters but the factory's model year designation approach is reasonably clear and logical during that 72-3 period. One of the reasons for the Porsche model-year cycle not being same as calendar-year is that it presents a good time to retool the plant during the month of August, when Europe traditionally goes on summer vacation. August factory shutdown traditionally provided manufacturers an efficient time window for changeover alongside any other maintenance. Some here still use the summer close. Quite sensible and practical as one might expect from German manufacturers. I personally find the model-year --Modelle 1972 for example used in sense of the factory production cycle running post shutdown to the start next year shutdown -- can be helpful in determining the fundamentals of the specs ....detailed model lineup, running changes, market variation, and many many other things that can greatly confuse the actual issue notwithstanding.

"Perlon and Velours" are clearly two of terms Porsche used in 71, 72,73 model years to describe the two different carpet-types. Evidently the Nylon Velours and needle loom was what the factory wrote in the internal interior reference binder I posted yesterday. This terminology alongside the Perlon and Velours carpet material descriptors used in the maroon parts catalogue at that time. You might already have copies of the pars books yourself, but these are pictures are from the 9/72 printing "Modelle 72/3" parts book as well as same term the earlier "Modelle 71" parts book. Both clearly show Perlon and Velours terms are in use to describe the available carpet material variants:



Velours and Perlon carpets were in use by Porsche long before 74, whichever way a year is defined. These picture are not sourced from PET or similar web sources which can lose the plot based on parts supercession, but from old paper hard copy binders printed in the day. In fact these two examples aren't even from my later reprints of the same parts binders so sources are very likely in the factory paperwork printed contemporary with the cars.

I think the Haagran carpet is Wool......

Do we know Porsche used Haagran whatever it is back in the day? Is there a in-period reference to it. Does it equate to Perlon, Nylon Velours or needle loom we do know from factory sources? Interestingly: No mention of Haagran material by Porsche in any of these three in-period factory printed pieces of literature, as far as I can see? Maybe others here are carpet fabric specialist? Or have other better factory sources.

Without that, personally unsure how helful is it is to use that Haagran from modern suppliers if trying to factually establish what material and colours of brown was originaly fitted by factory in 72-3. I'm no expert on carpets. Haagran might well be a valid term for carpet construction both today and back then, but what I shared is certainly the terminology and examples Porsche actually printed in reference tomes and presumably used back in 1972 and 1973.

Thought it might be useful to share this original folder's contents on the discussion, rather than it just gather dust on my shelf. Being a factory "B2B" rather than "B2C" old document not sure how many of these interior binders are still around these days? Thought the pictures, numbers and names in my old example might be useful in this context being the original factory printed content -- rather than later terms, and assumptions from current material suppliers. Useful Alongside what are thought to be unmolested cars with fade or worn brown interiors to compare to literature.

While some suppliers strive hard to get details right I am disapointed at times by woeful attention to detail on some 911 parts reproductions and is a pity when aspects of originality and authenticity get erased by even well meaning well executed restorations. Sometimes helps to have old factory source reference. Don't know whether that is the case for suppliers of brown carpet but what I do know from inspecting 72/3 S and RS cars it is often very obvious if "black" carpet is old original or a reproduction. Never really looked at brown carpet in that same way because I have no need of brown carpet for my 911 and am certainly not a car carpet expert.

Hope something in this old paperwork helps those who like to use genuine old source documents as one input to questions of originality/ authenticity. Maybe Haagran is the same stuff as Porsche fitted originally by a different term or maybe it is one of those things now available and regarded as "close but not quite right" that then gets adopted as correct -- I don't know frankly. I only "know" these interior and parts are things that Porsche published for official network use back in the day. If owners want to fit these Haagran products that is their prerogative.

My tuppence worth. I will bow out of the discussion having shared a few original genuine factory reference documents that, (unless these various factory produced documents had persistent mistakes across several publications and years ?), specifies what factory used as carpet back then.

Best regards

Steve