Counterfeit car in Europe with same VIN. What should I do?

[alarson11]

Starting a new thread. Transferring original post from "fakes" under General Info Forum. Here is the link to the original "Fakes" thread: http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...d=1#post899556

Here is the original question:

In my case, there was a counterfeit car created that had its VIN altered to match my original car's VIN. I believe the current owner was sold on the provenance and believed the car to be the original. He thought he did his homework, as the paperwork included a modern letter from the original owner that had the car in 1975. However, what the new owner did not know is that this "original" owner had written a dozen letters (approximately) on authenticating counterfeit cars, where the real one might have been in the US in a collection out of sight, and then they would introduce a counterfeit car in Europe. Also, this counterfeit car raced at the Le Mans Classic for a couple of years, so this modern provenance only added to the illusion that this counterfeit car might be the real car. You can say that this current owner was "probably" duped by not doing enough research. So, although duped into believing he has the real car, the issue is that he continues to "represent" that he has the real car in Europe./

So, it is up to the owner of the counterfeit car to prove his car is the real thing, when he sells it. However, his counterfeit has the correct VIN number stamped in it (although not well done), and he will (steal) the documented racing provenance from the real car. The two pieces of "paper" he has to authenticate the counterfeit is the "original owners modern letter" and also the original Wagenpass (logbook)(which the original owner kept whenever he sold an authentic car to someone else). So, the next owner of this counterfeit may be easily duped into believing they are purchasing the authentic car.

Although it is not necessarily my battle, having this counterfeit out there and known, especially given the Le Mans Classic entries, can affect the value and desirability of my car, if a potential buyer is concerned about a known (counterfeit) car that is also out there, being represented as the original. This counterfeit car can also shed doubt with a potential buyer of my car (although my car is not for sale), as they may not be 100% sure as to which is the real car, as they can inspect the car in front of them, but may not have the opportunity to inspect the other car (that is represented as real).

As a result, what strategies (including doing nothing) do you suggest that I should consider, in order to help the world understand which is the counterfeit car and which is the real car? And what legal remedies might I have, when the counterfeit car resides in Germany and I live in the US?

I am happy to share what I have done so far, but I would like to hear your ideas first. Thanks in advance!

[Darren65]

With a car building its own provenance in Europe I'd think it would certainly cast doubt in the future as to which is the real car........I'd be inclined to post details of your car, ownership, images etc, obviously not any sensitive supporting documentation that could be copied or indeed the production number and thereafter post details of where the car hasn't been i.e. 'my car is not located in Europe and it did not race at CLM in 2012' etc. - rather than telling the world the other car is a fake you'd simply be stating facts about your car. Nobody could take any issue or action about that and at least the world would know.

I'd also try to put pressure on event organizers and warn them not to claim your car is attending when it's not. That's likely to have more affect than any action against an individual.

Good luck.

.....as I mentioned on the other thread.......ultimately, and unfortunately, I think it does taint the credibility of the original car as people will 'choose' what to believe anyway so 'no action' may well be worth considering?

Best of luck whichever way you go.

[brookedale091462]

.....as I mentioned on the other thread.......ultimately, and unfortunately, I think it does taint the credibility of the original car as people will 'choose' what to believe anyway so 'no action' may well be worth considering?

Best of luck whichever way you go.

Because the number of entries into vintage racing ( of real cars that raced in period) has declined quickly ( due to reasons that can be discussed elsewhere) event organizers will take cars that look like period racers. In most US events you are lucky if 10% of the cars raced in period. Since the event programs heavily market them as vintage race cars ( see: names like "Pacific Northwest Historics" ) it eventually is assumed that these cars are more significant then they actually are.
Add to this the acceptance in FIA of these cars and you have a battle across the oceans of what is real.
Depending on how far you are willing to go ( and how valuable the car is) I would take photos of all ID panels and the car, summarize the cars history and send this packet via certified mail to the event registry folks at every major vintage race organization in US and Europe. With the benefit of the internet it is no more than a one day project. It also places these organizations on notice that you are serious about protecting your asset.

[928cs]

There was recently an article into Octane Magazine (UK, issue 161)) about the 2.8 RSR R7 (911 360 0686) and the way the current owner has made it inspected to be sure that he owns the ligitimate R7.

The car was inspected by an expert (Andy Prill) and using very scientific methods, he was able to certified that the VIN stamp was original, as was the complete part on which it is. Also, the welds that attach the panel to the rest of the bodyshell are authentic.
Then, the car was inspected by Nobert Singer, the man in charge of the building of the factory prototype RSRs at the time. He has certified that the original parts and the modifications done are consistent with what they were doing.

Of course, your car has been build by the Kremer brothers, so you would need to made it inspected by Manfred Kremer.

[alarson11]

First, thank you for all the advice here! There are some good nuggets for me to consider, with regard to future action. Let me share with you where I am at, and what I have done so far.

Just after I purchased my car in 2013, I learned there was a "counterfeit" car with the same Vin representing itself as having the same history and provenance of my car. (Let me just state that I am fine with any car that is a tribute/clone/replica of my car, as long as it is represented as such. Where this European car has gone over the line, is that the VIN was altered to be identical to mine, and then represented to be the real car.)

Here is what I have done so far:

1. I reviewed all the provenance and historical items that came with the car. (Including HTP papers.)

2. I purchased the car from a very reputable seller, who offered a money back guarantee, if I determined my car was not authentic.

3. I contacted and confirmed with every historical owner of the car that provided an ownership letter. I have historical ownership letters and recent correspondence with these owners.

4. Based on an unbroken ownership chain with historical letters that confirm this ownership chain, and based on numerous features on the car and parts (including an autopsy on all prior paint samples on the car), and based on historical pictures and articles that match the car today, I confirmed that my car is the original and authentic car with this chassis number. I have a 100 page history book that details the provenance and pictures, along with over 50 pieces of evidence that confirm my car as the original.

5. I wanted to share with the public that my car was the original, but I wanted to make sure all my "I's" were dotted and my "T's" were crossed. So, I hired a Porsche expert (name withheld but very credible in the Porsche world) to both inspect my car for authenticity, and to have him race my car at Porsche Rennsport Reunion V. He inspected the car, and all my historical documentation, along with the VIN and features on the car, and he concurs that my car is the authentic and original car. (On a side note, the owner of the "counterfeit" car was at Rennsport. I spoke to his son, who was racing, and he said his father saw the car, but he reiterated that his father owned the real car. This confirmed to me that the father innocently purchased the car and obviously believed it to be the real car. This chance meeting at Rennsport also exposed to the European owner of the "counterfeit" that there is another car out there claiming to be the authentic car.)

6. Our plan was to make the car known to the public after Rennsport. We worked with a writer and had a complete article on the car finished at the same time as Rennsport. We submitted this article to Porsche Excellence magazine, and the article was published in May 2016. (We considered a European magazine, but settled on a US magazine as the car resides in the US.) So, now the car has been introduced to the public (and the owner of the "counterfeit") as the authentic car.

7. After much thought, I contacted the owner of the "counterfeit" car, shared that I owned the real car and had documentation to prove it. I asked him to cease and desist from representing his car as the authentic car. I tried to be soft in the letter, and let him know that I believe he thought he purchased the real car, but that the two pieces of paper he had on the car were just that - paper. I also offered to have him bring his car to the August 2016 Rolex Monterey Motorsport Reunion, so we could compare both cars side by side. He has not responded to me, although I did get a note that the German builder of the car was trying to contact me. After this, I wouldn't be surprised to see this "counterfeit" car go into hiding, and possibly even be sold to another unsuspecting buyer.

And that is where we are today. Any thoughts or suggestions?

[Frank Beck]

After this, I wouldn't be surprised to see this "counterfeit" car go into hiding, and possibly even be sold to another unsuspecting buyer.

Assuming the VIN is 308299 I believe you're covered. A cursory internet search clearly points to you.

Burden of Caveat Emptor is solely on the buyer's back. A quick read of this thread and others should make any prospective buyer of the Ferry tale car run.

Anyone who purchases a car without doing online due diligence is a fool and a couple of clicks to determine a car's provenance would help event organizers as well.


BTW: Your car has late aux oil lines and I'm assuming, a late cooler. (911SC/Carrera)
How was the car originally configured? What other mods does it have that are not similar to its original state of prep?

[beh911]

I believe we are referring to his Jagermeister liveried RSR...

[Frank Beck]

I believe we are referring to his Jagermeister liveried RSR...

Ahhhh.

Never mind. Missed the "original owner in 1975" comment.

Carry on.

(I DO like your 2.0 car.)

[alarson11]

I will try to answer some questions or respond to some ideas that were shared earlier.

With regard to HTP papers, my car came with them, but the "counterfeit" car must have them also, to have been able to get into LeMans Classic.

I did inquire about the FIA Heritage papers but was told they will not certify cars anymore. So, I did run into that road block a couple of years ago.

I love the idea about contacting European race sanctioning bodies, letting them know the authenticity of my car. I am a little reluctant, now, to share any historical proof i have, so the information doesn't get out. Maybe I could share the authenticity letter I received from the Porsche Expert (with his permission)? Any other thoughts on this?

With regard to the latest Octane Magazine article on the RSR, I am familiar with the electromagnetic scans on chassis numbers along with ensuring there was no tampering or welding in of a new VIN plate. With my car in question, the car was brought down to bare metal to confirm there was no tampering with the VIN, along with video and picture evidence.

Below is a pic of an electromagnetic scan I had done on another car I own:

IMG_3245.jpg

[alarson11]

Also, here is a copy of the original 1975 owner (his brother has passed away) signing a copy of my history book on the car, in his shop. We couldn't bring the car to Europe, but we did bring the history book for him to review all of the original features and documentation on the car.

IMG_7901.jpg

I also have correspondence, with letters and pictures of two of the three 1975 drivers that raced the car (3rd driver has passed away) signing the history book, and correspondence, pictures and letters from the gentleman that sponsored and commissioned the car in 1975.

I have no issue that my car is the real and authentic car.