FS: @eBay - numbers matching 69S

[earlyaircooled]

When I'm looking to buy or sell a Porsche I look at 4 website, Pelican, Early S, The Samba and PCA. Of these 4 only early S allows random, anonymous "experts" to chime in and give opinions about cars or parts for sale. My name is Dave Hanning, I live in Portland, OR and I restore Porsche's for a living it was a hobby for 20 years and a full time job for the last 2.5 years. On Ebay I'm Uplife where I have nearly 3000 feedback, 100% feedback and 95% of what I sell there is Porsche parts and cars. I know and am known by many in the Porsche community. The seller is my good friend Larry Brooks (L.A. Brooks) and his user name is the same on Ebay. Both of us have stellar reputations with any that we have dealt with in the Porsche community. Now I invite any other "experts" on this thread to state your real name and qualifications. If your not willing to do that then please stop commenting . Thank you

[Jules Dielen]

Frank, $1k to get an mfi running after that many years? Id like to see you do that.

My user id is my name and i was conceived in a 356
Hope thats ok

[L.a.Brooks]

Buyers are sophisticated enough to make up their own minds; not convinced the gallery helps or hinders. All that aside...

L.a, why didn't you get it running before advertising? Seems like investing $500-$1k doing that would pay off in spades. Best of luck to you.

Fair and refreshingly intelligent question Frank.

As I stated in the listing:
"Engine and transaxle were rebuilt in 1981 by the shop that held Porsche Club Tech Sessions back in 1981(about 50,000 miles ago). Engine was built to 2.2S with new factory pistons and cylinders, complete paperwork for this work included. I would plan on at least pulling the top-end and refreshing all of the seals since it has been many years since the rebuild. Has complete, original MFI system. Original 911S front oil cooler, lines and rear console are in good condition. Heat exchangers are very tired and should be replaced.”

When I bought this car I knew I would probably NOT finish it, but wanted save it as a great project for someone who wants a fantastic 1969 911S whether they plan to do full concours restoration or just make a fun car to be proud of and enjoy. But I had to make many decisions concerning how far to go before offering it for sale. Obviously different people would take different approaches and I respect that.

I would not dream of putting in fresh oil and gas and trying to run this or any other 911 engine that has sat for nearly a couple decades AND I NEVER SAID OR IMPLIED THAT SOMONE SHOULD. So I would have to do some work first, but how far do I go? As I said, I would pull the heads and look at the pistons and cylinders, then I would decide how far to. After 50K I think it is very likely that the P&C’s would be useable, and I would have the heads checked and reassemble the engine all for what could be a rather modest investment and I seriously considered it. This might be fine for many buyers especially since it is very unlikely that this car like many other early S's will travel an additional 50K in even the distant future. But what about the buyer who would plan on putting many, many miles on the car or the buyer who would want a full concours restoration of the car, including the engine. They would undo any of the engine work I had done. And what about heat exchangers? The fellow who plans to drive it would likely be putting stainless versions on while the concours buyer would be looking for NOS originals.

But I did want this car to be saved and since I know a very competent Porsche metal man knew I should at least do that part. I’ve seen some horrendous metal work on otherwise good cars and didn’t want this car to meet that fate. So I spent a very significant amount of time and money making sure it was done right.

I like cars that retain as much of their originality as feasible. So I can tolerate a very nice original dash with a couple hairline cracks. Same applies for nice, original door panels that someone put discrete speakers in behind the front pockets, which are also original and nice. I did install a new set of rear pockets because the originals were toast and a friend had a set on the shelf. I prefer working original gauges that look good and match the car. I think many people looking for a nice car to enjoy see these things the same way I do. But the concours buyer would of course have all of these original parts out. That is their choice.

Someone even mentioned the wheels need to be restored and they probably should be. But they are the original 5 wheels that came on that car. I know some people that would happily use them as is since that is very uncommon anymore.

Everyone has an opinion on paint work. I have used body and paint men who could make this car a show winner for $25-30K. I also know painters who could make this car very, very presentable for under $6K. I decided to do neither because each would be wrong for different groups of potential buyers. And some buyer would prefer to do it themselves. So we had the bumpers, front fenders, doors and deck lid media blasted and immediately put into primer. There are spots on some of the pieces that needed metal work after they were stripped. We addressed the metal work issues in those areas and reprimered them. As I mentioned in the listing this car will need minor dings repaired and panel fit before painting.

Finally - what do I think this car is worth? I don’t know for sure - thats why it’s running in an auction. PCA will not let you list a car without a price so I had to put down something. Do I think it’s worth $100K? Unlikely, thats why I said “price negotiable”, but who knows? Show me another Matching numbers, never modified, never wrecked, solid, straight 1969s project with a great original color for a reference point.

[eprnjp]

EarlyS embraces the Freedom of Speech......

Why negative..... because I have become old and bitter........ The hobby is over ran and over inflated with and by Flippers.....

So freedom of speech is great but capitalism sucks. Must be tough getting old and bitter.

[Pieter Paul]

Larry (Dave), very fair presentation. Debates about the value of cars and cars for sale are an essential part of this board and help make educated decissions. Sometimes discussion get of the rails a bit and emotion drives the discussion. Settle down Beavis! Good luck with the sale!

[Macroni]

So freedom of speech is great but capitalism sucks. Must be tough getting old and bitter.

Yes..... it is a burden, knees do not react the same to working out.

Capitalism in its purest form is religious for me..... unfortunately it does appear we have come to accept manipulation as status quo.....

LA: good luck with your sale. I do think your above logic is flawed in the assumptions. The caliber of individual with the wherewithal to spend $60,000 is not going to spend $6,000 painting or merely pull the heads. He is going to embrace a full restoration either as a car to be owned or sold as an opportunity for a return. As an individual who has financed a $100,000 69S restoration and sorting, it is my belief that the car will need minimally $50,000. The math, in my now deemed feeble mind, is tight given today's market for a reasonable return to a skilled 2.5 yr professional such as Dave. Maybe Eric L, Rick C, KevinJ, DonA, FrankB, Henk, Marco or EdM can add perspective.

So...... $100,000 in my perspective is nuts. $60,000 is nuts......but if someone else sees this value I hope they post a build thread for all of us hobbiest to support..... again my name is macroni.....cranky, bitter, sore knees.

[Frank Beck]

My name is Frank Beck and I'm a white, Porsche Supremacist. I was born and one day hope to grow up.

NOW this conversation is getting interesting. Too much emotion before; finally getting to articulated opinions, a few manly throw-downs, and even some facts.

Larry and Dave,
As an engine builder and one who gets asked probably more questions than I would like behind the scenes, I agree with Luke. I can't imagine the ultimate buyer of this car trying to retain the P's & C's. (Those being the only parts you could "jeopardize" by starting the engine without disassembly.) One, because they're not correct for '69 (Keep in mind those heads have been flycut for the 2.2 cylinders and will need adapters or replacement to go back to 2.0) and in case the future owner wants to stay with 2.2S specs, brand new Nikasil Mahles are a paltry $4500. No, most likely the buyer will have the entire engine rebuilt if for no other reason than to enjoy no oil leaks. I can almost promise you that the #8 bearing o-ring is no longer doing its job and the mag case halves aren't sealing well either.

There is no inherent risk to starting this engine after decades of sitting as long as proper precautions are followed. We resurrect air cooled antiquities on a regular basis under those conditions. As a matter of fact it's one of the more enjoyable aspects of what I do day in and day out. (As for my 500-1k estimate, candidly that's probably a little low as Jules the 356 love child noted. I typically won't even consider smelling the shop up with bad gas odor for less than a couple of C notes.)

Here's the reason you would get substantially more dough for the car if it were running: Optics.

Buyers, all buyers like the fact that an engine runs. It provides a level of comfort that a non-running engine can't provide. Your engine as it stands is a pig-n-a-poke.(And the Bonus is that they can run the transmission through the gears and check for noises, bad syncros, etc.) If the lower end is chewed up and MFI needs everything someone is looking at a $40-45k rebuild (NO, not kidding. At least if you want someone like our shop doing it.) If the engine runs, suddenly a buyer just potentially saved $20-25k... at least in his mind. Which ultimately is all that counts.

Again, I wish you the best of success and am absolutely confident that qualified buyers will be judge and jury; not a bunch of bloviating opinionados who have no horse in the race. Me being the chief sinner of said group.

[merbesfield]

This is fun. IMG_0667.PNG

[earlyaircooled]

Frank Beck, brilliant comment, thanks for saying it so well! "am absolutely confident that qualified buyers will be judge and jury; not a bunch of bloviating opinionados who have no horse in the race".

[L.a.Brooks]

This is fun. IMG_0667.PNG

My sentiments Exactly!
I particularly enjoy the subplots including the apparent emotional investment by the different players who don't even have a dog in the fight (or as some people say - horse in the race). To be candid I would be OK with the car selling at it's current bid. Being one of two people on this thread who have actually SEEN the car, I think it is worth a bit more, but the market value will be decided at the end of the auction.

Please pass the popcorn merbesfield!