Matching engine number value

[RSTarga]

No one is forcing the chassis owner to buy Frank's case. He can always use another case, and Frank can always sell the case to someone else for much less.
If the guy wants matching numbers he has to pay the piper. Pretty simple really.

If I knew how to insert a Meme, I'ld insert the Chinese eyeroll girl.

Frank, can you do that for me?

[Frank Beck]

No one is forcing the chassis owner to buy Frank's case. He can always use another case, and Frank can always sell the case to someone else for much less.
If the guy wants matching numbers he has to pay the piper. Pretty simple really.

If I knew how to insert a Meme, I'ld insert the Chinese eyeroll girl.

Frank, can you do that for me?

"Asian" eye roll girl; not Chinese. That's a micro aggression David.


You're absolutely right... pretty simple. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything.

[NZVW]

The majority of museum's seldomly sell their stuff.

They "loan" it out at a cost and almost always require some form of ''security'' .

So I understand the "death do us part" and the offer of a coffin in lieu of the car and engine aspect as an optional purchase choice.

Its a brutal world out there,,, believe it.

Mark

[Merv]

Thanks Mark. Finding missing motors is always hard, especially as the matching numbers game wasn't such big deal back then and the motors were often simply swapped. In the RHD world however there are a couple of excellent data bases maintained of cars and Kardexes by folk here and in the UK. South Africa lost many of their records in a fire at the main agent's years ago. I spent a long time trying to track down a former rally car there. However, trying to find a previous motor in the RHD world could be a better chance in some ways as their destinations could be more fewer and the markets smaller. Have you contacted Hugh?

[Frank Beck]

Frank,

You sure know how to hit the nerves here! Global liquidity should prompt a name change to Early 911S Registry, Valuation Service and Clearinghouse LOL

Anyway, you have the kind of mind that would appreciate this article, particularly when it comes to matching number cases: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilateral_monopoly And this good article about Nash equlibrium: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bargaining_problem.

The short version is that a bilateral monopoly exists between the buyer and the seller-- because the counterparty is the only one who is positioned to pay the most. To everyone else, it's just a non-matching numbers case, so there's no premium on the number. But if the seller's price is too high, the buyer will buy another case and the premium disappears.

How do you win a bilateral monopoly? (If anyone studied economics at the University of Chicago, please don't answer, I want to see if Frank has thought this one through)

I've spent the last 21 years thinking about these kinds of problems and I think I know the answer.

And after you answer (if you have any gas left for this thread) I have a follow up question called the "Model T Problem."

Ok, ok to seriously address John's intriguing "Bilateral Monopoly" conundrum. His observation reminds us that there are no true "comps" from which to determine a "rate" because there only exists a single example of the "product" in the entire world. When the seller and buyer of a matching number case sit down to negotiate this is truly an "extraordinary" event and should be treated as such. There are no comps or norms because a negotiating process has never happened and will never happen ever again in that point in time and with the exact same set of circumstances.

It will come down to how badly each participant wants to make a deal. I would submit to you that the culture that we've found ourselves in favors the seller. Why? Because generally speaking owners of these rolling assets arguably have huge egos and fairly deep pockets. (We can argue what that means til the cows come home but when compared to "most" humans on the earth they are "wealthy".) In other words, the "bragging rights" attached to the chassis now made whole with its original engine surpass the boasting value for an engine case owner. And the value of the car has appreciated considerably. The equalizer being the financial state of the seller and his ability to skillfully negotiate.

Keeping this in mind, $20k is cheap. It should not be a shock to see what some people are willing to pay for their personal happiness and ego. Again, it's crucial to remember when two parties reach consensus on a very frivolous business transaction such as a motor casing neither can be viewed as a "victim".
And just to put my money where my mouth is, I would gladly pay $20-30k for cases that I need. Does this bother me in light of buying and selling matching cases only 10 years ago for $2-3K?

Nope. Not the least bit. It's just good business.

[robmog]

If a case buyer searched a sellers inventory and then picked a specific case based on a case #, would the price go up?
Just curious.

[Unobtanium-inc]

If a case buyer searched a sellers inventory and then picked a specific case based on a case #, would the price go up?
Just curious.

Not at Unobtanium, in fact the time I quoted in the beginning of this thread, I charged him probably a little less than I could have gotten. Karma is real.

---Adam

[Frank Beck]

If a case buyer searched a sellers inventory and then picked a specific case based on a case #, would the price go up?
Just curious.

You would need to ask the seller that question.

[Unobtanium-inc]

RANT ALERT
If you don't want to read a rant, then stop reading.

There is one aspect of this whole argument that has yet to be touched on, but it is a popular mis-conception. The mis-conception is,
"He own's a Porsche, he's RICH!!!!"

I've sold millions in Porsche and their pieces parts, and I know my customers. I can tell you that yes I've sold parts and cars to Captions of Industry, Presidents of the PCA and 356 Registry, I even sold a car to a guy who was once 42nd in line for the US Presidency, but I've also sold parts to retired school teachers, so if you assume that everyone who has a vintage Porsche is a rich guy who can take the hit on a $20,000 case, you're wrong. Many of these guys bought these cars decades ago for not much money. Also, when you do fancy math that says that a matching numbers case will increase the value of the car by X, therefore you should pay Y% of said algorithm that doesn't really mean much if the guy has no plans to sell his car, that just means some dude has to come up with $20,000. My Roadster is probably worth around $150,000, hell the wheels alone are worth $50,000! But that doesn't help me much in my day to day life, because I have zero plans to ever sell my car. Last time I checked there wasn't a Equity Line for a Classic Car, so it's not like putting an addition on your house, where you increase the value, but you can draw on that if you want, adding a matching number case to your car just makes you feel good. And more philosophical than that, like it or not, these cars will out live all of us, even me at 43, long after I'm gone someone, somewhere will be running his hands down the fender of my car and smiling. So if given the chance to make that special car a numbers matching car because you have some car's case, but you want to hold out for some percentage of some perceived value, and maybe not sell him the case, well, to quote the guy a few pages back, that's just a dick move.

---Adam

[jimxyz]

I get the initial point of this thread - "fair market value" of a matching number engine to the buyer who is trying to put their early Porsche back to its original state can be quite a bit higher than the market value of a non-matching engine, simply because the supply/demand ratio is extremely high. But you lost me with the statement that you've had engines/cases sitting on the shelf for a much as 40 years that you don't need to sell, and I suppose you will take to the grave if the owner of the matching car doesn't come up with the right price to acquire the parts. Stockpiling hard to find parts with no plan to sell them or match them to the cars sounds like a lose/lose situation to me.