Matching engine number value

[sithot]

Oh no!, lets not start the sunroof debate now. I'm the guy that looks for non sunroof cars! Haha. Original engine is nice of course in a collector car. Means very little in a Hot Rod to me. And, yes I'd pay up if I found the original case for a concur restoration. Be stupid not to.

No argument here.

"Sunroof Delete" is a ruse to increase interest.

It wasn't an option box you checked on early cars.

[Frank Beck]

And as a side note, isn't it good technique to be a socialist when you have what I want to buy, and a capitalist when when I have something I want to sell? Inconsistent, for sure, but practical in the tug-of-war world.

In a twisted, Marxist kind of way one of the most honest and accurate comments in this entire thread! Bravo!

When one operates this way then wags his self-righteous finger with feigned outrage at someone who is forthright and consistent the former instantly loses credibility and their cause is nothing more than a charade.

[L.a.Brooks]

Now for something completely different.

When I bought my 1968 911S SWT it came with a freshly built, 2.5l, later 1968 engine that wasn't installed. Since Porsche switched from aluminum cases to magnesium part way through 1968 I wanted to go back to the correct aluminum case my early 1968 car came with. I installed the fresh engine and then took my car to Jeff Gamroth at Rothsport for fine tuning. I mentioned to Jeff that I would eventually like to get a correct aluminum engine back in the car and of course it would be nice if it was a 67 or 68 911S case. He said he had a 1968 911S case upstairs and I would be eligible to buy it if he confirmed that my car was a real 911S. Many people had tried to buy it over the years but he wanted it to go into a 1968 911S. Rothsport made the car run incredibly well and Jeff agreed that my car was genuine. We went upstairs and looked at the case. I was astonished when Jeff read the case number to me - IT WAS MY CARS ORIGINAL CASE. I asked him how much it would be and he said he would have to think about it, but the case was machined (boat tailed, shuffle pinned, etc) and ready to build. Back then aluminum cases were often going for $5000 plus and this one had the machine work done so I figured it was worth close to $10K on the market, but considerably more to me since it would make my $150K car worth $200K at that time. I asked Jeff a couple times how much he needed for the case and he kept putting me off, which worried me more and more each time. Finally I couldn't take it anymore and told Jeff I needed a number, preparing myself for the worst.

Jeff said that I had HIM over a barrel to which I replied "how so". He explained that now that he knew the original car for that engine existed he had a market of one and the owner of that car was the only person he could sell it to. Then he said $4000. I've know Jeff for a few decades and knew he was shrewd, but also a stand-up Porsche guy. This took my opinion of him to a level that few of his peers reach in my mind.

Of course I bought the case and then had Jeff build it. Since we started with just a case I had to source many, many parts. Many came from Jeff and he charged me market/friend price for those. In the end it cost $40K to build the original engine. I sold the fresh 2.5 for $20k so it cost me $20k to make my car numbers matching again. Good move financially, but great move for personal satisfaction for making a great car whole again. I'm sure Jeff got that same level of satisfaction for his part in this.

Jeff is totally committed to the Porsche community and it is reaping incredible rewards for him and his business financially and emotionally. Can you say GREAT PORSCHE KARMA!

[Frank Beck]

Remarkable story. I’m confident that all of us shop owners who have been successful at this for decades could share similar ones. I would gladly give a serious discount to a case buyer if we were building the motor. Especially if he was already a customer.

Cheers to Jeff.

[EsGeht]

In a twisted, Marxist kind of way one of the most honest and accurate comments in this entire thread! Bravo!

When one operates this way then wags his self-righteous finger with feigned outrage at someone who is forthright and consistent the former instantly loses credibility and their cause is nothing more than a charade.

Definitely twisted and offered as such, tongue in cheek. I do not and would never seriously endorse such an approach, though I imagine some operate this way. Great appreciation and regard for forthright and consistent, and no fan of Marx. 100 million or so dead kinda kills that ism, eh? As the current owner/enjoy-er of a non-matching mongrel, I'm not on the matching number bandwagon, either. I don't care and don't get it, but more power to those who seek out the original, and more power to those who make it happen, at whatever agreed upon terms.

[Frank Beck]

Definitely twisted and offered as such, tongue in cheek. I do not and would never seriously endorse such an approach, though I imagine some operate this way. Great appreciation and regard for forthright and consistent, and no fan of Marx. 100 million or so dead kinda kills that ism, eh? As the current owner/enjoy-er of a non-matching mongrel, I'm not on the matching number bandwagon, either. I don't care and don't get it, but more power to those who seek out the original, and more power to those who make it happen, at whatever agreed upon terms.

Nice backpedal.

[304065]

Ok, ok to seriously address John's intriguing "Bilateral Monopoly" conundrum. His observation reminds us that there are no true "comps" from which to determine a "rate" because there only exists a single example of the "product" in the entire world. When the seller and buyer of a matching number case sit down to negotiate this is truly an "extraordinary" event and should be treated as such. There are no comps or norms because a negotiating process has never happened and will never happen ever again in that point in time and with the exact same set of circumstances.

It will come down to how badly each participant wants to make a deal. I would submit to you that the culture that we've found ourselves in favors the seller. Why? Because generally speaking owners of these rolling assets arguably have huge egos and fairly deep pockets. (We can argue what that means til the cows come home but when compared to "most" humans on the earth they are "wealthy".) In other words, the "bragging rights" attached to the chassis now made whole with its original engine surpass the boasting value for an engine case owner. And the value of the car has appreciated considerably. The equalizer being the financial state of the seller and his ability to skillfully negotiate.

Keeping this in mind, $20k is cheap. It should not be a shock to see what some people are willing to pay for their personal happiness and ego. Again, it's crucial to remember when two parties reach consensus on a very frivolous business transaction such as a motor casing neither can be viewed as a "victim".
And just to put my money where my mouth is, I would gladly pay $20-30k for cases that I need. Does this bother me in light of buying and selling matching cases only 10 years ago for $2-3K?

Nope. Not the least bit. It's just good business.

Half a point Frank, you are onto something when you say "favors the seller..." but that is not quite enough information to a) have a winning answer; or b) by having a winning answer, actually take action to get you what you are seeking, which is maximum value.

Like Tom Watson's old sign said. . .



All right now how about the "Model T Problem."

ORIGINAL Model Ts are rare and used to be collectible. I am not talking street rods, I mean ORIGINALS. But who buys them today?

There is a tipping point for our parts hoard. Yours, mine, everyone who fits that description.

One day we will wake up and our hoards will no longer be interesting. Our cars will be like the Model T-- used to be rare and collectible, but no longer interesting.

Now to my friends in the Model T community I am not picking on you, people who value Model T's don't do it because they are an asset class, they do it because they are history.

So here's the "Model T Problem" -- there is a point of maximum interest after which everything declines. How do you time it?

I know a guy who has a huge parts stash, in a building up north. If I need a part, I inquire, but the parts everyone needs are the parts nobody has. So if I get lucky and he has it, I just buy it. Maybe even overpay for it.

My cost to acquire it is the scrap value of the part + storage costs capitalized over 50 years + seller's profit margin. Almost without exception the purchase price doesn't capture all those things.

Next time you get attached to something, look on eBay, there's probably one for sale! I call this the "Virtual Closet"-- somebody else stores it, all it takes is the purchase price to move it from their closet to yours. Where it sits, probably useless to anybody but you!

this is fun

p.s. Frank when did I say it was my hobby? LOL

[304065]

Jeff said that I had HIM over a barrel to which I replied "how so". He explained that now that he knew the original car for that engine existed he had a market of one and the owner of that car was the only person he could sell it to. Then he said $4000. I've know Jeff for a few decades and knew he was shrewd, but also a stand-up Porsche guy. This took my opinion of him to a level that few of his peers reach in my mind.

Good, real-world evidence of bilateral monopoly!

[sithot]

How do you time it?

Market timing: Better to be lucky than good.

[Frank Beck]

Half a point Frank, you are onto something when you say "favors the seller..." but that is not quite enough information to a) have a winning answer; or b) by having a winning answer, actually take action to get you what you are seeking, which is maximum value.

Like Tom Watson's old sign said. . .



All right now how about the "Model T Problem."

ORIGINAL Model Ts are rare and used to be collectible. I am not talking street rods, I mean ORIGINALS. But who buys them today?

There is a tipping point for our parts hoard. Yours, mine, everyone who fits that description.

One day we will wake up and our hoards will no longer be interesting. Our cars will be like the Model T-- used to be rare and collectible, but no longer interesting.

So here's the "Model T Problem" -- there is a point of maximum interest after which everything declines. How do you time it?

Love this.

I understand "maximizing profit" may be the goal in business but from a rare part "hobbyist" point of view (Mine), that's not an ultimate goal. Candidly I have no problem leaving part of the filet for the next vagrant to dine on.

As far as "the most opportune time" to liquidate? I think we're far from the peak so I won't lose sleep any time soon thinking about it. (Of course global-thermonuclear war or a catastrophic terrorist attack could instantly change the status quo.)