Matching engine number value

[jimxyz]

Or you could just sell it at market price like we do, and be happy that another car is made whole. Gordon Gecko was wrong, greed is not good.

https://unobtaniuminc.wordpress.com/...feels-so-good/

---Adam

+1 on that

[gulforange]

S e r i o u s l y

[Bob Schaefer]

I come down somewhere in the middle of the two views expressed …

Considering the following:
1. The fair value of each item individually on the open market.
2. The additional value created by combining the pair.

I’m convinced a fair transaction is where both parties share the additional value according to their relative contributions based on open market values of their individual components.

For example, picking numbers out of the air … Suppose the individual values are $90 and $10. The sum of their individual values is $100. Then suppose the synergy of combining them creates an extra $10 of value, making the combined value $110. I believe the fair value of the $10 component to the owner of the $90 component is $11. (Or the value of the $90 component to the owner of the $10 component is $99, if looked at the other way around.)

Thus the value of each component of the mated assembly is directly related to its relative contribution to the final value.

IMHO asking a greater percentage of the synergistic value enhancement than the value one’s component contributes is an attempt at taking advantage … gouging.

Just my $.02.

[Unobtanium-inc]

I come down somewhere in the middle of the two views expressed …

Considering the following:
1. The fair value of each item individually on the open market.
2. The additional value created by combining the pair.

I’m convinced a fair transaction is where both parties share the additional value according to their relative contributions based on open market values of their individual components.

For example, picking numbers out of the air … Suppose the individual values are $90 and $10. The sum of their individual values is $100. Then suppose the synergy of combining them creates an extra $10 of value, making the combined value $110. I believe the fair value of the $10 component to the owner of the $90 component is $11. (Or the value of the $90 component to the owner of the $10 component is $99, if looked at the other way around.)

Thus the value of each component of the mated assembly is directly related to its relative contribution to the final value.

IMHO asking a greater percentage of the synergistic value enhancement than the value one’s component contributes is an attempt at taking advantage … gouging.

Just my $.02.

Here is the problem when a seller tries to squeeze a buyer because he has his original motor. There is only one guy who really cares about that motor, and if you piss him off not only do you lose out on any added premium you were going to get, but you also lose out on the sale of the motor. When people ask me what they should do when they find they have someone's original motor I say charge market, but if you must charge a premium to make yourself happy charge 20-25% extra. That's fair and if the guy is serious about paying market he'll probably pay the extra. The part where greed screws it all up is when guys try and get double or triple of market thinking they hold all the cards, and start talking about how much more the care will be worth, etc. Well, what's 100% extra of nothing?
The only other scenario I've seen has only happened to me once. I found out I had an original engine for a guy's Speedster, which I offered to him. He wasn't interested, even at market price. Ok. Fast forward a couple of years, I see his car at a show, I spy the engine number, which is exactly the same as the case I have. So which one is original? My dirty greasy, welded on case with the typical hod podge engine stamping or his crisp, clean case with the perfect engine stamping...

[cnwayland]

So which one is original? My dirty greasy, welded on case with the typical hod podge engine stamping or his crisp, clean case with the perfect engine stamping...

And I suppose this is the reason the COA was changed and now folks won't be able to ascertain matching numbers at all anymore, and a few of my cars will be robbed of that reunion.

I'm curious what we're calling 'market price' for a case is anyhow.

[Frank Beck]

Last time I checked "price gouging" doesn't exist in a free market. Especially when discussing such trivial and meaningless things as collector cars and their engines.
We all have the ability to walk away if we don't like someone's asking price. On anything.

The above arguments are empty. None of you are addressing one of my fundamental questions: Why should the owner of the car benefit from significant increased value and the case/engine seller also not be rewarded handsomely?

BTW: Every time I've seen one of these marriages happen the price of the case ended up being in the 6-7% range of restored value. Both parties walked away believing they received fair value. No bitterness. No resentment. No name calling.

cnwayland nailed it: This entire debate can be boiled down to one question. What is "market"? From my first hand experience it's 6-7%. Again, if a seller wants to be charitable and make it less, that's his call.

[Unobtanium-inc]

And I suppose this is the reason the COA was changed and now folks won't be able to ascertain matching numbers at all anymore, and a few of my cars will be robbed of that reunion.

I'm curious what we're calling 'market price' for a case is anyhow.

I'll give you a concrete example I do with 356 stuff, I list every engine, case, and 3rd piece I have, with one price for each.

Complete engines are $5000
Cases are $1000
3rd pieces are $300 each

Those are market prices, not cheap, but not super high either, and if you're original engine is on there, bonus for you!


https://porsche356registry.org/classifieds/15126

[Frank Beck]

Last count I had 35+ 356/912 engines/cases.

Here's my pricing menu:

Complete engines start at $9k.
Cases start at $4k.
I have no separate timing covers.

In regard to 4 cyl we now have at least 2 pricing points to work off of.


6 cylinder engines are obviously higher.

Like all of my crap, these don't occupy valuable space and they're not in my way; for all I care they can sit until my widow sells by the pound. Or until someone makes a decent offer to haul them all away.


Again, we live in a capitalistic society based on supply and demand.

[Unobtanium-inc]

I know I’ve been on this soapbox before but it still amazes me how some chassis owners are so twisted that they refuse to pay a fair price for their matching number case. (A minimum of 6% of the restored value of their particular model car should be the basement.)

BUT

they don’t seem to have a problem reaping the reward of at least a 20% increase in value of the car once said case is acquired. Simple ROI math folks.

Incredible.

Frank,
You can re-write history here, you are now saying 6-7% is the norm, but you began this conversation crabbing that guys wouldn't pay a "fair price" for their case because they are twisted. You then went on to say a minimum of 6% should be a basement, leaving the door open for far higher than that if you arbitrarily decide that the restored value of their car is higher or for any other reason. So you can't on one hand say people should pay a reasonable amount and on the other hand say you can stick it to them. How about you give us some concrete examples of prices that have been rebuffed, since you obviously had either experienced or seen such situations, hence why you started this thread. If we have concrete examples of failed deals than we can better decide if the deals sounded fair or if greed killed the deal.
If there is one thing I've learned from the Porsche business it's that there is plenty of money to be made without sticking it to people.

[Frank Beck]

Adam,

I'm always amazed at how and why people read more into a statement than what's there. (I know why in this case; you don't like me and have expressed it privately and publicly).

You took it upon yourself to assume a "far higher" amount. If 6% is the "basement" then anything higher could be the ceiling. In this case 7% could be considered a "ceiling." (I don't believe I've ever stated numbers or percentages higher than this.)

As far as offered prices that were "rebuffed", how's $5k for a matching number case? For a car that's possibly worth $300k when finished.

Is that "fair" in your eyes?


(Hope people don't view this as a "pissing match". I'm finding it very enjoyable.)