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Thread: difference between a ROW and a US f model

  1. #11
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    "Euro seat belts have a white thread running in the middle of the straps"

    My UK RHD 73 E has orange tracer running down the middle of the original static front seat belts

  2. #12
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    Within ROW there were variations some for very obvious reasons such as the configuration to drive on left in UK Australia etc

    Other differences were for regulatory reasons as the international standards were less harmonised than today so example would be the requirement for us size spare wheel and tyre not inflatable and associated use of steel metal tank not plastic in UK

    Others were differences in spec set by the importer for that region to pitch the spec of the Porsche at a level the market would expect for cars of that class/price point to compete with other marques ...there are examples,of that in the original British market brochure where things are not standard in Germany home market are bundled into country. Offhand I think rear wiper in uk in 73 might be an example of that but would need to check papers if important

    One key to this is role of the two codes for country in determining the configuration of the vehicle. I am most familiar with EG C16 but others exist

    I have never fully decoded the configuration determined by c16 because the number cross references down to a series of numbers not all of which seem to be M options that are listed ...presumably they refer to particular equipment and options that were internal to the operation and sourcing/supply chain

    Regarding the other country code is this relating to the entity that ordered it such as the official importer in this case EG likley being Porsche Cars Great Britain /AFN? It seems to work in combination with Komm Nr (commission number) presumably the customer order preceding the suing of production order.

    Shipping code iirc determined the transportation mode which in turn affected the final preparation such as waxing or not.

    I often read comments about what was correct for an certain year and model 911 but without the details like the country codes and shipping code details it is hard to say with any certainty ...without that extra context any comment while intending to clarify runs risk of being incorrect. That is before the complications of engineering running changes for pragmatic operational, cost or continuous improvement reasons. Other things that are put down to randomness or what was available to the line but might have more method than madness if we knew what was the sourcing or operational challenge on the day or how disciplined the process was or wasn't for relatively hand assembled product.

    As some know I was at one point in my career the group operations director of a well known sportscar OEM that designed and assembled cars in volumes somewhat similar to Porsche in the era. Also at same time ran assembly of whole vehicles under contract for a very large OEM. Managing the options variants and engineering changes, engineering concessions etc etc etc is not trivial.

    I'm mildly interested for hobby historical purposes how Porsche would've the managed vehicle options, variants, configuration and so forth as the tools to manage such things across the product portfolio were less developed back then.

    There are lists giving sub codes for the particular equipment by Country code in reference books I've seen.

    My F series is model year 73 car is EG C16 RL

    This is what I think I know for c16 EG but after consulting one or two folks I thought would have such details nailed it is incomplete and certainly far from clear even for this one country and model:
    M20 MPH speedo
    M61 version for GB ?
    M483 RHD
    M123 ???
    M486 might this be typo? M 468 is air compressor required for standard spare tyre which is duplicate and seems not to be supplied see capitals below?..or maybe M586 tinted glass all round with two stage rear was standard for MY 73S in UK.
    M492 headlamps for left hand traffic
    M464 steel fuel tank. OHNE REIFENKOMPRESSOR UND-DRUCKPRUEFER

    The broad shorthand RoW as stated by Karim is useful in distinguishing from cars destined for North America but is probably too generic on configuration and spec ....ROW is even too broad to identifying brochures printed as within that they differ for a certain logical group of markets as determined by the suffix that could share brochures with a certain language eg the commonwealth countries. Something discussed at length about the large format brochure for 72/3. But as stated probably not granular enough to helpfully get into the year model country configuration combinations.

    With international reach and scale this forum is probably the best placed to build a view of the variations by year implied by the country codes.

    The op refers to F -- model of 73 As a start I'd be happy to list these known country codes for 73 model year on a new thread to see what we can work out from collective wisdom from the asdociated sub codes by year as this might be a useful reference if we can crack it. Such a resource might minimise that "Tower of Babel" confusion when folks refer to different country model when trying to get a handle on some detail for a similar car but in other market.

    Worth a shot?

    Other model years could be added if it proves interesting/ useful. Or maybe these country codes and what sub code = country configuration/equipment were consistent across several model years? Afaik c16 EG is still in use today for UK


    Steve
    Last edited by 911MRP; 08-11-2018 at 07:22 AM. Reason: Typo c16 not c1

  3. #13
    Senior Member NickP's Avatar
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    My 73S has a few other notable difference from the US version: 1) plastic 85L fuel tank, 2) no stickers for washer/wiper or blinkers on the “clamshell.” 3) no rubber bumpers on dash knobs. 4) no annoying buzzer for seat belts or “fasten seat belt” light on dash. Other differences noted above.
    Nick Psyllos
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    1972 911T to ST

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by 911GP View Post
    "Euro seat belts have a white thread running in the middle of the straps"
    My UK RHD 73 E has orange tracer running down the middle of the original static front seat belts
    Interesting. Does your car have repas and a second front slam panel riveted aluminium plate? When was it made approximately?

    Quite a few rhd uk cars in model 73 I've seen have static three point have kangol brand belts bolted to sill and transmission tunnel factory fitted threaded mounts -- not seat frame . I've previously posted on this point elsewhere including photos of press car demonstrators so equipped -- evidently not later replacements. Not totally sure if some U.K. Cars were supplied without belts and fitted by importer along with riveting the unique to uk aluminium "bs au" extra slam plate showing mounting in compliance to prevailing seatbelt regs in this country. My belief is the aluminium tag relates to those factory drilled mounts in those chassis location as something the BSAU seatbelt regulation required along with the kite mark sticker seen on belts themselves but never proved that theory. The number of 73 uk cars with kangol along with period photos is sufficient to show these kangol were used here when the cars were brand new but not clear if seatbelt the brand used depended on if customer ticked belt as factory fit option got repa ....but otherwise if unticked factory option got local kangol fit. Certainly belts legally required dince 65.

    I do know seatbelts are a listed as separate paid option on uk specific model year 73 price list so probably not part of the c16/eg country equipment bundle I referred to previously*. Kangol were a British brand so maybe supporting local supply base or maybe repa were not initially approved to that BSAU national seatbelt regulation here so only came later in 73? U.K. joined the common market beginning of calendar 73. There is possibly some logical reason to do with harmonising standards across Europe just being underway but from memory I haven't seen many uk model 73 cars with the static three point orange thread repas as often seen in row but I have seen on 72 and early 73 cars the distinctive original static three point magnetic catch Kangol.

    Just within c16 EG UK market model year 73 there was from my observations of many cars over many years significant variation and evolution of seatbelts fitted particularly as inertia reel became more common and their design evolved rapidly from around that time. Can't rule out what I've seen are replacement over 45 years but certain patterns suggest a definate evolution and significant use of kangol brand of various design types here in uk.

    (Mercifully no switch stickers, fussy instructions on heater blowers, seatbelt buzzer lights wired seats or rubber switch covers on uk c16 here in 73 either )

    S

    *Car manufacturers in uk have had to install seatbelts since 1965 but the law requiring drivers to wear them did not come in to force for another 18 years. In 1991 the law changed again making it a legal requirement for adults to wear seatbelts in the back of cars. Cars would be had to had seatbelts to pass pdi /be registered
    Last edited by 911MRP; 08-11-2018 at 07:23 AM.

  5. #15
    Senior Member 911T1971's Avatar
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    Some swiss cars by Amag importer had Klippan belts (as mine), others Kangol or Repa.

    And I agree while US equipment helps define a US market car (with California emission and safety laws being the motor for all changes within ModelYear), a RoW designation means “nothing”. Its too broad as a term, since it includes about a dozen markets and each one requiring changes in equipment details. Those details are usually reported by car owners comparing their equipment, but no exhaustive list was ever completed.
    Registry member No.773

  6. #16
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    I thought I'd have anther go at decoding the various rhd country market specs based on info listed in edition two carrera RS book. Started with a small sample that is of interest to me as rhd owner to see how it goes in building up a picture of Cxx country specs.

    Turns out three are five Cxx codes for that model in 73 in RHD form: c14 Japan Rhd , c16 uk (and Hong Kong), c23 Australia rhd and c26 South Africa rhd plus a tourist delivery in factory Aussie rhd c35.

    Even within these five rhd country specs some of which at first glance similar there are different country equipment lists underlying. Let alone ROW vs North America ....not all of roughly hundred or so RS in rhd form across country markets that drive on left are the singular country spec.

    Not a big surprise since as stated previously there are country regulatory and national market specific drivers to these country specs that go beyond the superficially obvious steering wheel and pedal position

    Each country Cxx in the RS book gives a list containing various three digit "options" within the each defining the equipment comprising the country spec bundle. The table in the RS book curiously calls these list of sub codes "M options" but not all are externally listed "73 accessory options in the regular sense of being available to purchase on the country accessory price list; some seem to refer to internal use Mxxx option numbers. Maybe not best to think of them as M option numbers -- point Hugh once made to me previously. However many do appear on the public domain option lists on www ( although some clearly get recycled with different equipment)

    A few countries have both a left and right drive Cxx number variant so what might seem implicit for the config of a country such as steering wheel position and MPH vs KM speedo can't be just assumed from a country, also some parts of equipment spec are regulatory requirements in a world when standards had less global or regional reach than today, some are set by importer to win in market against competition.

    The most obvious case being M 483 decodes to " right hand drive" which by definition applies to all my chosen RHD sample. RHD wouldn't have appeared on a mxxx accessories list in any rhd country but at some point the information must be captured to instruct the supply chain and assembly folks -- RHD was implied in that different Cxx country codes like EG. Seems a different country code was used to order a LHD or RHD version in a relatively small market such as Japan, for example.

    I feel the further set of country codes like EG for England are probably the code identifying the sales network entity (such as factory, country importer or dealership) who placed the customer sales order as they often appear in connection with komm Nr.

    Also there is code m492 halogen h4 lights for rhd vehicles apply for all my rhd..... except the Japan rhd which curiously seems to have asymmetric LHD lens?

    Made good and quite quick progress on my sample of these rhd market codes using various public domain lists. Frustratingly the only number in any of the twenty codes across all five Cxx covering every 1973 carrera RS in RHD form I've drawn complete blank on in my little exercise is .....(M)123 .

    All the other twenty or so 3digit numbers have some equipment that easily confirmed or at least point to very plausible equipment in context of rhd RS cars from model 73

    Iirc I have been stuck on that same number 123 when I tried this little exercise before on uk cars!

    Bit like doing a crossword and being stuck on the very last clue -- does anyone have a view on what is the equipment or component that got fitted with code 123 (with or without an M)?

    I'll share my findings but would like to crack this one stubborn code first!!!!
    Last edited by 911MRP; 08-11-2018 at 02:56 PM.

  7. #17
    Senior Member 911T1971's Avatar
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    Here a period document (in german) showing how complex the situation was.

    When a client ordered an accessory, not the factory but the dealer or importer was responsable if the ordered accessory (both standard accessory or special order) was legal within the DOT/road registration laws of the country where the car would be road registred.

    Below text says exactly this:
    Not the factory but dealer or importer were solely liable and responsable that Porsche cars complied to market specification. !
    (“Es ist die alleinige Verantwortung des verkaufenden Haendlers oder Importer, zu entscheiden, inwieweit die Sonderwunschausstattungen den Zulassungsvorsvhriften seines Gebietes entsprechen...”)

    Source:
    Accessory Pricelist - February 1973

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  8. #18
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    Hi Steve,
    My car was built in May 73 and it has Repa static belts stamped 1973 on the tongue and 1973 silk labels therefore I think they are genuine although there is no specific notation of factory fitted seat belts on the coa. I also have the jelly bean style receivers and not the receivers with "press". There is no BS AU stamped plate above the vin plate which I have read about but there is evidence of previous damage and repairs to the front of the car so maybe BS AU plate was not transferred over or maybe there wasn't one, I will never know for certain.
    Kind regards
    Gitesh

    Quote Originally Posted by 911MRP View Post
    Interesting. Does your car have repas and a second front slam panel riveted aluminium plate? When was it made approximately?

    Quite a few rhd uk cars in model 73 I've seen have static three point have kangol brand belts bolted to sill and transmission tunnel factory fitted threaded mounts -- not seat frame . I've previously posted on this point elsewhere including photos of press car demonstrators so equipped -- evidently not later replacements. Not totally sure if some U.K. Cars were supplied without belts and fitted by importer along with riveting the unique to uk aluminium "bs au" extra slam plate showing mounting in compliance to prevailing seatbelt regs in this country. My belief is the aluminium tag relates to those factory drilled mounts in those chassis location as something the BSAU seatbelt regulation required along with the kite mark sticker seen on belts themselves but never proved that theory. The number of 73 uk cars with kangol along with period photos is sufficient to show these kangol were used here when the cars were brand new but not clear if seatbelt the brand used depended on if customer ticked belt as factory fit option got repa ....but otherwise if unticked factory option got local kangol fit. Certainly belts legally required dince 65.

    I do know seatbelts are a listed as separate paid option on uk specific model year 73 price list so probably not part of the c16/eg country equipment bundle I referred to previously*. Kangol were a British brand so maybe supporting local supply base or maybe repa were not initially approved to that BSAU national seatbelt regulation here so only came later in 73? U.K. joined the common market beginning of calendar 73. There is possibly some logical reason to do with harmonising standards across Europe just being underway but from memory I haven't seen many uk model 73 cars with the static three point orange thread repas as often seen in row but I have seen on 72 and early 73 cars the distinctive original static three point magnetic catch Kangol.

    Just within c16 EG UK market model year 73 there was from my observations of many cars over many years significant variation and evolution of seatbelts fitted particularly as inertia reel became more common and their design evolved rapidly from around that time. Can't rule out what I've seen are replacement over 45 years but certain patterns suggest a definate evolution and significant use of kangol brand of various design types here in uk.

    (Mercifully no switch stickers, fussy instructions on heater blowers, seatbelt buzzer lights wired seats or rubber switch covers on uk c16 here in 73 either )

    S

    *Car manufacturers in uk have had to install seatbelts since 1965 but the law requiring drivers to wear them did not come in to force for another 18 years. In 1991 the law changed again making it a legal requirement for adults to wear seatbelts in the back of cars. Cars would be had to had seatbelts to pass pdi /be registered

  9. #19
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    Hi Gitesh,

    Hadn't spotted it was you on this forum-- hope all is well. I thought the BsAu tag was in all uk cars to end of model year and the change was with my74 facelift but never checked that assumption in detail TBH. Several friends have May June rhd 911 so maybe can compare notes sometime -- my car is fair but earlier


    Steve

  10. #20
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    Country Codes

    Quote Originally Posted by 911MRP View Post
    . . . One key to this is role of the two codes for country in determining the configuration of the vehicle. I am most familiar with EG C16 but others exist . . .

    . . . There are lists giving sub codes for the particular equipment by Country code in reference books I've seen . . .

    . . . The op refers to F -- model of 73 As a start I'd be happy to list these known country codes for 73 model year on a new thread to see what we can work out from collective . . .
    Another thead --- see post #5 . . .
    http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...hlight=country




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