Production info in lieu of Kardex

[Arne]

So I bought an early '72 911T, and as we know, no Kardex is available for cars after '69 (or so). And now that PCNA will no longer confirm engine numbers on the PPS (replacement for CoA), are there any other options to get production data for the '70> cars?

I know that PCNA will at some point have some new certificate that will have this data, that will require the car to be inspected at a dealer at a cost projected to be $500.

In the meantime, I'm wondering if there are other ways to get data on my car from Porsche. No fancy certificate would be required, I'd just like to confirm things I've been told.

Here's what I know - I am comfortable that the engine in my car is original, as the number stamped matches the number noted on the cover of the Service/Warranty booklet. That is good enough for me. I also know that the car (built 8/71) was originally silver code 925, as that is stamped on the paint plate on the door jamb.

I was also told the following production and sales info by the seller, but I don't know where this came from.

911 210 0317
engine 6120560
color 8080=silvermetallic
interior 11=leatherette black
dealer UAT=Los Angeles/Tourist delivery

• options
  
  • 400=alloy wheels 6x15 (Fuchs)
  • 404=stabilizers front/rear
  • 453=Blaupunkt Frankfurt (US band)
  • 470=Comfort Pkg
  • 559=cooling system (A/C)
  • 568=tinted windows

That seems to match what I see today on the car. It also seems to cover most of what I would expect the older CoA to list, other than the CoA might also list "Equipment for USA" and possibly what brand tires were original.

But the dealer code showing Tourist Delivery is kind of cool, and not something you'd see on a CoA/PPS.

I guess my question on this is - Anyone know where the seller of my car got this info? (If it matters, he lives in the UK.) Would this info be available for other later cars that have no Kardex?

Last, how do I find out what tires my car came with?

[tomster]

I bought my MY70 US-delivery car also in the UK and after having it shipped to Germany asked Porsche Germany for a "Auslieferungsbescheinigung" (vehicle delivery information = PPS?). I had to send pictures of the car, all #'s and of course € 166.60.
Don't expect the information you get to be bullet-proof though. Here's what I experienced...

All I got was exactly the same as your UK seller told you. If they don't state the trans# then you most probably don't have the one installed that is in their file. Was the same in my case.
BUT... Though Porsche didn't state a trans# they claimed - that "following their records" - my car had a 911/00 series trans installed at production time!
As much as I know 911/00 would be a (US/CDN) 4-gear-box for a "T" model. After some email back'n'forth, and Porsche still being relentless, I then asked them to explicitely confirm that gb-type because I would assume that will make my car the absolutely only MY70 "S" in the world ever being built with a 4-gear trans...
They didn't want to do that and sent a new letter now claiming it was a 911/01 gb installed by factory instead...

But I didn't give up and contacted PCNA asking for a CoA there. That's what I got in reply (in numerous emails = me being a PITA):

"Thank you for your email. I have verified that kardex does not indicate the original transmission type or the transmission number. I was able to locate the original transmission number, but am not able to provide this detail for security reasons. If you were to order a COA, the transmission number would be listed. We can only ship COA's to the US/Canada. "
...
"VIN 911030011X has the original transmission number starting with 701. "
..
"Your transmission begins with 701 where the other begins with 710. The last 4 digits have a difference of more then 1100. "

I then gave up, because I didn't want "bomb" PCNA with "guessing trans#'s emails".

Also no information on production/ delivery date on that forementioned 170€'ish piece of paper.
After some more email back'n'forth I at least got the information that my car was supposedly delivered in 12/69. Since I would think the car was on its way across da pond for ~ 4-6 weeks I would say production date must be ~10/69. But that's just a guess.

All in all? I came to the conclusion not to give a s**t on the numbers, keep continuing to restore my car and most of all: drive it.

Tom

P.S. I couldn't notice any difference in fun factor while driving my car though being completely clueless on the (presumably) correct # of my trans or what kinda tires where installed!

[Arne]

I agree, Tom. In the big picture, it's not really important to me as I have no plans to sell the car in the foreseeable future, and the originality of two of the more important bits (engine number and factory A/C) are pretty obvious. I have no reason to suspect the transmission is not original, but since the number is (as many are) ground off the bottom, there's no longer any way to confirm that. All the rest is just curiosity on my part.

[LongRanger]

I've known about Porsche's famous Kardex for almost-as-long as I've been interested in their cars. For me, it's not so much a matter of 'value' or 'authenticity' per se . . . rather more about --- I dunno . . .

. . . 'history'?

By this time, having gone through decades of use --- not to mention the tastes + proclivities of serial ownership . . . it can be a liiiiitle tough to tell sometimes, just how any given car started out . . . versus what's left-over/survived. Whatever several hundred thousand miles of road-use --- and the attendant wear + tear, maintenance, paint + bodywork, corrosion, etc . . . didn't accomplish, then --- more-often-than-not . . . changing styles, complicated repairs, expensive parts, inexperienced service, and that inevitable need to 'personalize' did

Even if NONE of a given car's history is known --- or even knowable . . . there's still something to be said for having some idea of how any car started-out

Porsche's old 'Certificate of Authenticity' provided some satisfaction. Problem was --- these CoAs were only abstracts of some other source documents . . . and, unfortunately, weren't always accurate. I still gasp when I read about how Porsche had their representatives on-site at some of the older races and car shows . . . giving out Kardex information. Times sure have changed

My car came with a CoA --- nicely formatted + presented . . . but I still wanted something more. I'd been told that getting a proper Kardex WAS NOT possible. Fair-enough, I thought . . .

. . . so? ----- what IS, then?



Here's what I did . . .
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...l=1#post624807


I figured it wouldn't hurt to try



Anyway --- I went through all this six years ago. And maybe things have changed --- I don't know. All I can suggest is to contact the Porsche Archives and just ask for their help. Be polite, be open, be friendly . . . and make it fun. Even if you don't get exactly what you're looking for . . .


. . . you still might get something worthwhile . . .



. . . maybe even something that you weren't expecting
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...l=1#post645593



. . . sure wasn't expecting that



..

[tomster]

Richard,
Wow! Now that is quite some "provenancial" come-out! Nice twist at the end.
And it encouraged me to dig a little deeper on the information I have on my car. Seems like I finally tracked down a PO from 20 years ago. Let's see if he will respond...

[tomster]

He actually responded! Quite nice to talk to a guy who has owned my car for 20 years straight and bought it from the original owner who had it since new.
Also helped narrow down the acutal mileage of the car. Must be around 180k miles.

He is even coming to Europe this summer and we plan on reuniting PO and car. Guess we both are kinda looking forward to that.

Can't help the feeling that such conversations on the phone are worth way more than those boring numbers on a CoA.

Thanx Richard for being the spark on actually digging for the owner. Made my day!

[davep]

It is very encouraging to see people able to get extensive histories, and meet old owners. As far as data options for 1970 through 1980 cars it is very difficult. Some info does exist but not so easy to get. Very few people have been able to get the Fahrzeug-auftrag (vehicle order) that followed the car down the assembly line, where stickers were added for VIN, engine # and transmission #. There is no question that these exist, but the process to get one is not known to me. I can get an engine #, but the full list of data that Arne posted is not available to me (yet).