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Thread: History: 1969 Porsche 911S GT Factory Works, Marathon De La Route Winner

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Vintage Racer View Post
    It's a really nice car but way above my pay grade.
    I'll take two!
    Peter Kane

    '72 911S Targa
    Message Board Co-Moderator - Early 911S Registry #100

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by sanders View Post
    If you are referring to GTSs there were at least 4.
    In the letter from Porsche on post 4, it says three GTS’s were built for endurance racing. I also hear there is a fourth? Was the letter just a mistake or ...? Is there any more documentation on how many Porsche designated as GTS’s? Hugh?

  3. #13
    Senior Member HughH's Avatar
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    On the number that were built I would have to say I dont know for certain. The letter from the factory says that three of these cars were built for the Marathon. - In fact it says that this car the letter was about was "the third of three vehicles built by the racing department for competition in endurance events".
    That does not preclude any other cars being built - ie for R&D generally or for Rally events.
    However it seems to me that these cars could not be entered in any event that required the entrants to be homologated so it is unlikely that any were built for other official events.

    I have not seen any evidence of any GTS cars competing in other events in 1968 or 1969.

    That again does not rule out others being built. However the only possible ones that could be built would probably have vins in the very low numbers in 1969 - say up to vin #12 or #20, given that the three identifies were #003, #008 and #009.
    Given access to the kardexes (or better still the build book this could be resolved relatively easily - however i don't see that access happening easily
    I have also seen references to one or more additional cars but never proof - Indeed i am not sure what "proof" is apart from a build book entry.

    One "trick" in looking at the factory cars, especially the competition cars, is to look at their registration numbers. Mostly they register sister cars with consecutive numbers. So the GTS cars were SH 7685 and SH 7686 although i don't have the third registration number but it is almost certain to be 84 or 87. Discovering that BOTH were used would be a pointer to a fourth car.
    The three Acropolis cars were SM 2727, 2728 and 2729.

    One car that has been mentioned in relation to maybe being a GTS is the practice car that was used in the Acropolis in 1969 by Toivonen (and apparently as a practice car in other events). I have a photo of it with rally plate #9 at tye acropolis (which must have been in practice because that rally plate was not used in the event) but the registration plate is not a factory one - it looks like a Swiss VS plate but I cant read it all. That car is said to be vin 119 300 004 but also having the versuch vin 320-017. A pointer to is also being a GTS car is that it is a consecutive number with #003 and it would not be unusual to have two identical cars with consecutive vin numbers - examples like that abound in the "special cars".

    It is interesting that it has a 320 xxx versuch vin as well. 119 300 002 which was registered SH 7200 also had a versuch vin (320-011) and was a Ferry Porsche family car as well as being a R&D car. If the car used by Toivonen was a real GTS it would probably have been ineligible to compete. But it would not be ineligible to be used as a practice / recce car. Such use would give good data to the Versusch engineers on the durability of the aluminium parts - as would entering three cars in the Marathon de la route.

    I have a working theory on these cars that they were a (temporary) technological dead end for the 911's. Porsche really did use the competition program to develop the cars. They had a lot of experience from 1966 or earlier with "plastic" parts / Fibreglass etc with the prototype cars. they had extensive experience with Aluminium in the 50's in particular for the competition cars then.

    The theory is that in the quest for lightening the 911's they used the GTS's in 1969 but they did not give the best outcome at the time in some way so they went the "plastic" route in 1970 for the ST's. Those car had extensive lightweight parts but they were generally "plastic" parts especially the body parts.
    Therefore in this scenario the "GTS" cars are actually R&D cars that were let "out into the wild" in selected events as well probably have been used in other extensive durability tests to see if Aluminum was the correct route for the LWB 911's to follow or not.

    that still does not help with the original question of how many there were
    Last edited by HughH; 11-23-2019 at 02:20 PM.
    Hugh Hodges
    73 911E
    Melbourne Australia

    Foundation Member #005
    Australian TYP901 Register Inc.

    Early S Registry #776

  4. #14
    That’s a very thoughtful answer.

    It does seem that the 003 can be called a GTS, if it has the alloy panels and other race bits. The engine number might tell more too.

    Regarding aluminum versus plastic: weren’t the earlier 911R’s plastic too? Maybe it was more economical for aluminum in very small lots? Or they wanted the cars to be more similar to road cars for entry in the Marathon?

    And how does one prove it’s a GTS without the factory referencing it as such? Good question. Maybe the alloy panels.
    Last edited by rower; 11-24-2019 at 07:01 AM.

  5. #15
    This will shed a little light.



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  6. #16
    Sanders, that’s great! So we now have four confirmed GTS’s. Three that were factory race werks entered competition cars. One used to test the Acropolis rally course and later privately raced. It’s probably fair to say that if there were any others they were for internal testing only as none have ever surfaced? What’s the date of the letter? Is it possible to ask if there were any more? (Actually just noticed Olaf Lang signed it, and since he died it must be an older letter. Maybe mid 1990’s)

    It’s also interesting that the original engines on the Marathon race cars were 639000x numbers while this one is 6390650. Consequently it’s pretty clear that that both the engine and transmission were replaced/swapped at least once while used internally, and then Porsche changed both again prior to delivery. The kardex would tell us the private ownership engine and transmission numbers. Do you know them?
    Last edited by rower; 11-24-2019 at 12:06 PM.

  7. #17
    The letter is from 1990.
    The original engine number per the Kardex was 63900004 while the original trans per Kardex was 9284107. It's all a bit confusing since 9284107 is also associated with 00009. And it appears engine number 6390650 was the replacement engine unless the car was sold as a roller, and it may have been since Jurgen Barth remembers selling the car to Peru in 1969 to a "customer who had wrecked his car". Gunter Steckkonig, a factory driver, supplied the following practice information in 2010. The picture is 00004 running in the 1969 rally "los Caminos del Incas" in South America. Driver Chachi Dibos and co-driver Lothar Ranft. Lothar probably had his hands on all GTSs as he was a werks technician, and as a young technician lived behind the research facility in a tent! The cars are the stars but there's plenty of color in the people. He was sent to Peru to help tune 00004 for the extremely high altitudes of the Inca rally, fell in love and stayed.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by sanders; 11-24-2019 at 02:53 PM.

  8. #18
    Senior Member beh911's Avatar
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    119300004

    That's some very interesting and obscure history on a significant car. Thanks for sharing.

    https://www.facebook.com/AutomovilCl...094905/?type=3

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    Driver:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduard...3%B3s_Chappuis
    Last edited by beh911; 11-24-2019 at 03:08 PM. Reason: URL edit
    1969 S Coupe #761
    Early S Registry #1624

  9. #19
    Senior Member HughH's Avatar
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    sanders
    thanks for sharing that information. That adds a great deal to the picture about these cars. Given that 004 was noted as a T car for the 1969 Monte Carlo I think that it is the red car at the LHS of this photo below (registered S-H 7347) and MAYBE this is a photo of all the 4 GTS's together. The other photos are some of the ones I have for that car as a practice car for the 69 Monte. Note the early style front vent windows in the second last photo but it is definitely a LWB car
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    Hugh Hodges
    73 911E
    Melbourne Australia

    Foundation Member #005
    Australian TYP901 Register Inc.

    Early S Registry #776

  10. #20
    BINGO! Pauli, SWB tail lights and "R" hinges.....119300004 all but confirmed! I've been looking 20 years for pictures, thanks!

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