Backdated 81SC with 72T front clip on BAT now....and it's titled as a 72

[Arne]

I am not from the USA so dont understand what is and is not legal and what the DMV role is in controlling the integrity of original factory
Vehicle markings and swapping them etc such as vin dentifiers

Not knocking car or seller as others have said being upfront ust curious in USA can people just do what they like with identifiers and so forth?

I'm not in market for car like this so my question is general not specific to this car but I guess the situation theoretically becomes an issue down the line of làter owners aren't as upfront or maybe the information is lost.

Rules vary by country so also what might implications be if subsequently offered for sale xported to one where such matters are a breach?

Guy who did the work is dead but want about those who knowingly sell a car on a situation like this -- not the forum approval or otherwise ...but legally?

Steve

Generally speaking, it is not legal in the USA to move VIN from one chassis to another without disclosing this to the registering agency of the state. Depending on the state and the extent of the VIN swap, at the very least the car's title would likely be 'branded' as 'salvage' or 'reconstructed'. It may also receive a new, state-assigned VIN rather than re-use the swapped VIN.

However, it is dependent on the person/shop doing the work to notify the DMV. And even if the title received a 'reconstructed' brand, those are easy to purge with some creative transfers through some states that don't issue titles for cars older than a certain age.

So at some point, cars like this can lose the memory of what has been done, and they 'become' whatever they are titled as - in this case a 1972 911T.

Again, kudos to Jason for being totally up front about the car's provenance. I doubt many people would have the knowledge to figure it out if he had decided to not disclose this.

Interesting thought here - I wonder how many 'early' cars that have the wrong rear slam panel might be re-VIN'd later cars?

[gled49]

I’m use to the latest VIN takes precedence, so back dating for emission elimination can’t be used.

[72targa]

VIN Reference 9112101259

[911MRP]

So as a non USA person i'm still confused as to whether there is any teeth in USA on this kind of vin change stuff. Not using this car and thread specifically as I've no axe to grind on the seller car in question but in a situation hypothetically like this if someone sells a car where the identifier is knkwn have been changed but DMV or authorities not informed there is no legal comeback in USA when the car is sold to another ?

[sithot]

7/19/2015 $75,000

http://usedcarsfsbo.com/asp/Item.asp...=7%2F19%2F2015

"Here is a terrific Gruppe R registered RS clone... Car was built on a 911SC Chassis titled as a 1972. Car was featured on the cover of ESSES Magazine.. A top quality restoration with only 7500 miles on it. Car features a fully rebuilt 3.0 liter 911 motor with PMO carbs and SS header. Motor professionally done by Craig Smith, classic Porsche specialist. 915 gearbox with LSD. Full Rebel Racing suspension including dropped front struts, adjustable swaybars, etc.Wheels are 7"x16" front, 9"x16" rear.Interior features early Recaro seats with hounds tooth inserts, square weave carpets, TRE roll bar, and factory sun roof.RSR fuel tank filler by Urs Gretener.This car is officially registered with the GRUPPE R group. You won't find a nicer car for money..I had to relist this car because Ebay wanted me to add the VIN#.. It is now there on the listing."

[Arne]

So as a non USA person i'm still confused as to whether there is any teeth in USA on this kind of vin change stuff.

No, not really. We have nothing like a Federal MoT inspection, all of this is 'monitored' at the state level. And the rules and enforcement are very haphazard from state to state. In a case like this, the best protection the seller of a car like this can have is transparency - if the seller knows the history, being open and disclosing it early is their protection. You don't want to be accused of fraud, so telling the world about it is the better plan.

The thing is, I'm sure this is not just a USA thing. Nor just Porsches. Happens with rare and valuable cars worldwide. Doesn't make it right, but it does happen.

[sithot]

This is car is a conundrum because someone got it by DMV once.

1364. ALTERING OR REMOVING MOTOR VEHICLE IDENTIFICATION NUMBERS

Section 511(a) of Title 18 makes it a felony knowingly to remove, obliterate, tamper with, or alter an identification number for a road motor vehicle or a road motor vehicle part. Section 511(b) of Title 18 creates exceptions for certain persons who engage in lawful conduct that may result in removal or alteration of an identification number. The legislative history is abundantly clear that subsection (b) is not intended to create a loophole for the operators of "chop shops." See H.R.Rep. No. 1087 on H.R. 6257, 98th Congress, 2d Sess. 23-25 (1984).

Section 511(c) of Title 18 contains the definitions for "identification number," "motor vehicle," "motor vehicle demolisher," and "motor vehicle scrap processor." The term "identification number" means a number or symbol that is inscribed or affixed for purposes of identification under chapter 301 and Part C of subtitle VI of Title 49.

Title 49, Chapter 301 authorizes the Secretary of Transportation to promulgate motor vehicle safety standards. Pursuant to this authority, Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 115-Vehicle Identification Number (49 C.F.R. §§ 571.115 and 565.1 to 565.5) requires public VIN numbers on road vehicles (passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles, trucks, buses, trailers, and motorcycles). Part C of subtitle VI of Title 49 (49 U.S.C. § 33101 et seq.) authorizes the Secretary of Transportation to promulgate theft prevention (parts marking) standards. The parts marking regulations are set forth in 49 C.F.R. Part 541. The mandatory component identification requirement applies to certain high theft passenger car lines starting with model year 1987. In 1995, the theft prevention (parts marking) standard was expanded to include certain multipurpose passenger vehicles and certain non high theft lines beginning with model year 1997.

For a discussion of proving violations of 18 U.S.C. § 511, see this Manual at 1376.

[cited in JM 9-61.700]

Was the builder "a certain person" as referenced above?

[skinnerd]

Up to $123k with 2 days to go....

[Jim Breazeale]

I have been up close and personal with this car on multiple occasions. It is beyond beautiful and done to the highest standard. I have even been on the track with this beauty. It ain't slow! If the seller does not reach a comfortable level (serious money), he should keep it.

Regards

Jim

[Arne]

Was the builder "a certain person" as referenced above?

Who knows, at this point. But possibly, if the builder was a licensed collision repair shop.

This is car is a conundrum because someone got it by DMV once.

And this is the key issue. Now that it has passed muster that first time and has a valid title that matches all the visible VINs, there really isn't any reason that someone is going to fuss about it in the future. Especially since the seller has been upfront about the history.