Etiquette question - broken during shipping

[dirk07]

So. I´m the seller.
It s an international deal. So forget all, what you know about buying within the US.

And John, you received the refund, when the belts got lost or in a second case when you send me (finally 6 month later) all parts back.

All said about buying with PayPal, Amex etc is only partly correct.

You will been refunded as a buyer by them, because its a third party deal. They don't have any interest and goods. They only like that the buyers are happy to have an insurance, that is payed by the seller. Thats their business model. Paypal, Amex are not ordinary courts of law.

But the seller and the buyer have a contract. Go to court and claim that the seller has the item and he hasn't paid. Did this twice and won both cases. Its upon what happened really and you will get your money from the seller if you as a seller did everything right.


The seller has to hand out the sold item to the buyer. In case of shipping, has the seller to send the item securely packed to the correct address.
Thats all.
If the buyer like insurance, he has to pay for. If he like express, overnight, whatever, he has to pay for.

In my case the buyer asked for lower, lower and even lower price, than for included shipping.
Both lenses had been packed each in a box and both boxes in another box. The shipping was tracked and insured.I did some pictures of the lense in the boxes and the boxes in the box and send it to the seller.
The lenses arrived both in one box. The customers declaration inside was missing. So someone opened the box for customers declaration and did all the tax thing. I called DHL, had been to the DHL office also and they said that the buyer has to claim it damaged and they have to check the box at the local post office of the buyer.
The buyer never answered me the question if he claimed it damaged or not. Then he wanted me to look for another lense here, I found one, but he bought already a NOS one and he like to been refunded for the NOS one or half, then he would like to send the good and the NOS one back and wanted a full refund, because he decided to use REPROs.

Fullstop- I´ll shut up.

[haul]

well spoken ....
all said....

[mfitton]

I have not done any business with either member but I see Dirk on here quite a bit. When I receive an item that is not as described or damaged I let the seller know immediately that I am sending it back and want a full refund. I don't get into a discussion about the item other than it is going back. I always use PAYPAL and I document with pictures and return tracking number when shipping back. Sometimes the seller reimburses my return shipping but usually not, I write it off as cost of doing business. If item was damaged by the shipper then the seller can pursue that on his own. Since PayPal was not used no protection for the buyer (bad move) and probably expensive to ship back. Seems like there is some history of other transactions here where Dirk felt like they were not handled correctly, so now Dirk has the upper hand and will control this one to his satisfaction. Keep us posted!

[Bill Meyer]

What he said...

Trying not to beat this horse to death, but I am curious how others feel about this. My logic has always been if an item is damaged, the buyer is the one who now has the damaged item, damaged packaging, etc.. so I've always felt it just made sense that they would make a claim, as they know the details and have possession of the damaged goods.

As to saying we're living in a fantasy land, well, it's nice! When I ship something that's valued at $1000 it just gets insured at that amount, I don't ask the buyer if he wants insurance, it's just done because I assume it will get lost or broken, simple as that, and buyer pays for said shipping/insurance.

I suppose if the buyer refused to deal with a claim I'm always covered and can handle it on my own, but it's never happened that way before.

[Unobtanium-inc]

Trying not to beat this horse to death, but I am curious how others feel about this. My logic has always been if an item is damaged, the buyer is the one who now has the damaged item, damaged packaging, etc.. so I've always felt it just made sense that they would make a claim, as they know the details and have possession of the damaged goods.

As to saying we're living in a fantasy land, well, it's nice! When I ship something that's valued at $1000 it just gets insured at that amount, I don't ask the buyer if he wants insurance, it's just done because I assume it will get lost or broken, simple as that, and buyer pays for said shipping/insurance.

I suppose if the buyer refused to deal with a claim I'm always covered and can handle it on my own, but it's never happened that way before.

Unfortunately in the case of UPS the buyer cannot do the claim, unless he shipped it under his UPS number. If the seller handled the shipping only that person can file and handle a claim. UPS may contact the buyer for photos or a description but the buyer has no control over the claim.

---Adam

[Bill Meyer]

Unfortunately in the case of UPS the buyer cannot do the claim, unless he shipped it under his UPS number. If the seller handled the shipping only that person can file and handle a claim. UPS may contact the buyer for photos or a description but the buyer has no control over the claim.

---Adam

Interesting. I've only had to do this twice in the last 20 years, but one I just did last year on a damaged transmission with FedEx. All the seller had to do was sign a form waiving their right to make a claim on the same item.

Regardless, glad this discussion came up as I've never though much about it. Will pay more attention in the future

[911MRP]

I don't know about rights or wrongs on this case but on an international shipment I received an expensive red horn set that arrived in thousand pieces. Bought through eBay the seller immediately within minutes refunded in full no messing about no need to invoke PayPal or open a Case etc. Kudos to them. Having seen the jigsaw pieces in photo they don't want it sent back. Asked my help in providing evidence of damage to support their claim which obviously I willingly did. That evidence also support my claim for the government to refund import duty and VAT that had to be paid paid here by me before delivery. The government took a while but refunded import duty /VAT too; a quaint paper cheque arrived

As buyer I was immediately made whole for item itself, post by the seller who claimed it had been well packed but accepted that regardless of who how damage was evident so not my fault. Duty etc repaid by Her Majestys government. Only people who took money from the deal and never paid back was the party who charged a transaction fee to calculate and process the import duty on behalf of the government. They were ironically the very carrier who in all probability broke it from rough handling in transit but they claimed the service they had provided at point of arrival was based on declared value on shipping papers being a function of amount over the the threshold -- service performed on good faith on sealed box and blind whether broken or not they said. I didn't bother to chase that £12 service fee dead money although probably should've in principle but figured there was probably a small print thing that if they do the collection service I pay regardless -- life is too short to mess about for less than 20 bucks.

I don't particularly use this forum to buy or sell old car hobby chattles and a dynamic of late where legal threats have arisen albeit on matters unrelated to "for sale" items it doesn't encourage me as a European to more actively do so.

Steve

PS the eBay Pitney Bowes global shipping service were not the party involved in the above story but have found them cr@p on opening and resealing the packages processed via them. A number of items I've bought have been very badly repacked and left insecure despite evidence of the original packaging of seller being good. In fairness they have usually done the right thing to compensate but troubling if they are in the loop on rarities which if damaged hard to or maybe impossible to replace even if compensated financially.

[uai]

I think as shipper you‘re not able to get anything from DHL. It‘s the receiving party that has to file a claim with DHL.
If anybody wants to pay fedex, ups or so then it might be different, but with DHL the seller is absolutely stranded if the buyer isn’t cooperating.

[911MRP]

I think it varies Uli. In the case with US Postal Service and Royal Mail I as buyer could not claim the sender in USA did but I filled in a Royal Mail damage report to help the seller make their claim. It was the Royal Mail who pocketed the customs processing service charge.

The seller was very appreciative of my support in helping their claim by filing in detailed damage report with photos even after I got refund and i could've not bothered once I was immediately refunded by them ...but I never heard if they got money back from insurance or the shipping company as by then I'd done all I could by then to help their claim. Obviously I was only too glad to help a seller who stood by their service and hope they didn't ultimately take the hit!

These experiences either spiral down the drain of distrust very rapidly or people do the right thing in the grand scheme of things since not a life-changing amount of money to anyone who plays around with old Porsche's. Better to leave a positive feeling despite the disappointment ...that been my experience at least : )

[LiveFromNY]

And John, you received the refund, when the belts got lost or in a second case when you send me (finally 6 month later) all parts back.

Hey buddy. No hard feelings, and, yes, you refunded me for the damaged items you sold me. But you and I both know that your packaging is terrible. You sent me heavy items with almost no protection in a flimsy cardboard shoe box. Love your stuff, and a fan of you personally, but I think everything you've ever sent me has been poorly packed.

All said about buying with PayPal, Amex etc is only partly correct.

You will been refunded as a buyer by them, because its a third party deal. They don't have any interest and goods. They only like that the buyers are happy to have an insurance, that is payed by the seller. Thats their business model. Paypal, Amex are not ordinary courts of law.

No, it's completely correct - at least for U.S. buyers. Paypal, Visa, MC and Amex have already decided that sellers are responsible so that sets a standard we can't avoid. To the extent there is case law in the U.S., it concurs (ask me how I know). As the seller is the one controlling the entire shipping process, including safely packing the items (sometimes in a flimsy shoebox), it would be unreasonable to hold the buyer responsible for damage in transit.

mscott842 - Dirk's a good guy (despite being a 9-foot tall German) and I'm sure he'll work it out.