major fraud in the classic porsche business in Germany

[Marek]

Just curious. Is this a criminal trial? If so, in way way would Porsche be a co-plaintiff? Thanks

hmm yes a 100 million euro criminal fraud case making and selling fake historic race cars

no one have been ,how you call it , caught yet by the judge , sorry for my english , the older guy is a well know porsche ambassador who had acces to historic files

but as said nothing yet

[rmfent]

Interesting.....maybe that's why so many race cars have been appearing for sale in the last few years.
They seem to coming thru the same channels. Be careful out there....

[911MRP]

… in fairness to the accused the principle of innocent until proven / judged guilty applies however it will be interesting to see where and to whom the tentacles of the deals on the twenty-two indictments reach as prosecution evidence is presented.

What is the status of the cars that prosecutors have chosen to use in bringing the specific allegations to trial ?

Trial is one to watch as I suppose it’s a small niche market and network for cars of the specialised type alleged to be at centre of these proceedings — are there further revelations, (twists and turns), to come during the trial and at its eventual conclusion?

It becomes most interesting IF the slow legal proceedings ever get to a conclusion and IF by end of the legal processes any guilt is ever proven.

Steve

[rhegra]

Today it was continued. According to a current report in the Aachener Zeitung, the presiding judge had already tried on the second day of the trial today to explore whether the extensive proceedings, for which eight trial days are initially scheduled, could be shortened - which would not only be good for the main defendant due to illness. An expert reported that the man suffered from epilepsy. He suffered his first seizure when he was ten or twelve years old. From then on, he experienced these “unpredictable seizures” about every five years, after which he usually woke up injured in the hospital and couldn’t remember anything. Stress and lack of sleep in particular triggered the cramps. And right now, at the start of the trial, an “increased stressful situation” must be expected.
Such “deals” are nothing unusual, especially in large economic processes, reports the AZ; it is not uncommon for a deal to result according to the motto: If you confess this, it can be stopped. And everything will happen faster and therefore cheaper for the taxpayer.
However, it is doubtful whether this will work in this procedure. 19 lawyers are involved, Porsche is acting as a co-plaintiff, there are many conflicting interests, according to the AZ. Judge Quarch encourages “bilateral discussions” and offers himself as a mediator; he is also a certified mediator.
First, however, the defendants had their say. The doctor from Düsseldorf has already commented on the person and the main defendant also wants to comment on the allegations next week. (translation by Google)
Porsche is involved because there could be a criminal misuse of their trade mark selling „faked“ cars as real Porsche. In Germany there are some special laws concerning the violation of a trade mark or even protected copyright. There is another big story about a well known Mercedes restoration facility, now bankrupt, concerning faked 300 SL Gullwing and roadster.

[StephenAcworth]

There is another big story about a well known Mercedes restoration facility, now bankrupt, concerning faked 300 SL Gullwing and roadster.

I think Mercedes bought this company and it is using it as the basis for their Mercedes Heritage business.

https://mercedesblog.com/the-insolve...mercedes-benz/

[haul]

I think Mercedes bought this company and it is using it as the basis for their Mercedes Heritage business.

https://mercedesblog.com/the-insolve...mercedes-benz/

Mercedes-Benz takes over parts of the bankrupt company Kienle Automobiltechnik in Heimerdingen. They will be the 1st February integrated into the Mercedes-Benz Classic Center. Mercedes-Benz Heritage GmbH therefore also takes care of specialists and thus ensures valuable expertise for the future, says Mercedes-Benz. The exact scope of the takeover is unclear.

https://bnn.de/nachrichten/wirtschaf...tomobiltechnik

Mercedes-Benz Heritage GmbH takes over with effect from 1. February 2024 components at the former Kienle Automobiltechnik GmbH in Heimerdingen and incorporates them into the Classic Center of the brand. You not only take over a spare parts stock, specialized work equipment, but also personnel.
As has already been speculated in the media, Mercedes-Benz has now officially confirmed a partial takeover of Kienle Automobiltechnik GmbH. In a press release, one speaks of "comparts of the former Kienle Automobiltechnik GmbH" with the takeover of "qualified specialists" without going into detail. In addition, the spare parts stock as well as specialized work equipment for complex work on classics of the Mercedes-Benz brand will be taken over. How many employees you effectively take over, nor which parts are taken over exactly, are not communicated. As far as we are informed, former shareholders, close family members and ten other employees were not taken over.

Growth strategy of Mercedes-Benz Classic

"As Mercedes-Benz Heritage GmbH, we are responsible for preserving the heritage of this unique brand and carrying it into the future. With the acquisition, we secure valuable spare parts and ensure their best possible availability. In addition, we attract further specialists who have acquired knowledge and experience in this highly specialized area over the years and will actively support us in the implementation of our growth strategy. My entire team and I warmly welcome our new colleagues." - says Marcus Breitschwerdt, Head of Mercedes-Benz Heritage GmbH.

https://mbpassion.de/2024/01/mercede...omobiltechnik/

[Marek]

Hi Haul

that is funny reading that they take over, I tell you a funny story how Kienle started, i was told once
He Klaus Kienle was a employ at mercedes in the 60´s -70´s
one day he saw that they trow out all the special hydraulic tools for the MB 600 Limo to the scrap yard
he ask if he could have it , and took it ,
not many months later a Dictator from africa or so called Mercedes that his Mercedes 600 had collaps they had air hydralic suspension
made on the tools Klaus now had ,
so mercedes was in deep shit , until klaus step in and said I can fix it for €€€€€ big bucks
then a few months later the next 600 and the next and thats how he growed
and Mercedes had to pay him due to these "presidents" where big clients of mercedes
the same with the Karman factory and all the 911 sheet metal tools , all send to the scrap yard

and due to there Kienle , bankrupcy , I dont think it was this only 1 300 SL they faked wins on must be more to it than this

Marek

[911MRP]

I posted this story a few weeks ago but it drew no comment.

https://www.early911sregistry.org/fo...ng-development

What was conclusion of the investigation mentioned in both articles in the links? Was anyone proven guilty of any wrongdoing?

Surely Mercedes and their lawyers cognisant of their almost unique history and heritage back to the dawn of the automobile wouldn’t go near any deal involving a company / brand that had wrongdoing or even the merest suggestion of any wrongdoing?

This cartoon by John Atkinson might be something German OEMs might want to put on their pinboards:
IMG_3925.jpeg

Particularly with the ongoing Aachen legal case bringing more worldwide attention to German classic car market’s integrity and the Aachen legal proceedings even involving another OEM as co-plaintiff and one of its high-profile ex-employees as a defendant.

Steve

[haul]

soorry had not seen your post…the mercedes story had been debated quite extensivly
in the german speaking region, as the verdict of fraud is an ongoing story since years…
last year the case of an announced lawsuit came up and - double existance of a car ->complete fraud with all papers, vins etc - the original car had been unknown at a suisse farmer since years - in the shadow of this, more people
raised their voices….
all this collapsed, even before it began - deliberate escape into bancruptcy/insolvence …..
case closed -
no more money available..
no one to sue ! company no more existing …

I try to find some of the excellent reports
done here in the german speaking region
- google page translate will sure help then..

concerning Aachen -
it is a generell problem of the vintage scene -
dealers in Suisse, Italy, NL, France, Belgium, UK, US and else..

[911MRP]

No problem understandably the story gets more traction in context of a thread with other allegations and a live legal case that has another German OEM involved.