Show Me Your Vintage P Dealer Plate Frames.

[LongRanger]

Came across these images of another Competition Motors frame

What's fascinating about this one is that, from all the literature that I've seen, this dealer was always up in the Hollywood/Woodland Hills/Culver City area . . .

I did find this notice, written to Hemmings Motor News . . .

. . . Earl Gandel of Bridgehampton, New York, writes, "From 40-plus years ago, as memories go, this is the dealership in Inglewood, California, on Manchester Boulevard near Los Angeles International Airport. It was owned by John von Neumann, who was VW and Porsche distributor in Southern California, Arizona and Southern Nevada. His original retail store was at 1219 Vine Street, in Hollywood, and there was a later move to Highland Avenue when he moved the distributor offices to Culver City in about 1963 . . .

http://www.hemmings.com/hsx/stories/..._feature4.html

Anyway, from this account --- along with the 'fluting' on the verticals of the frame . . . I'm guessing this is a 356-era bit, prolly late '50s . . . still --- amazing

[LongRanger]

From the '70 and '72 PDLs . . .

Lee Dinges Volkswagen, Inc
1117 Main Street
Lewiston, ID

Dull white lettering on med met blue back-round, flash-chromed, maker = COSMO PROD

Plate is reg ID pass iss,'68 baseplate modified by annual reg stickers; '2J' = Jerome County

[LongRanger]

Like a lot of people, I followed Mark Morrissey’s recent for-sale thread of some license frames with some interest . . . .

http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...ate-frame-sale

I also read his comments --- about whether some of the items were reproduction/or not . . . as well as some questions from others about prices/values

I’ve been contributing to this thread for a while now, but, except for descriptions + photos . . . I’ve kinda shied away from writing anything about prices/values/money, because, well . . . I’m a idiot --- meaning that I pay WAY too much for this stuff . . . ie NOT dis-interested/impartial/sane/trust-worthy on the topic. I’m the Guy Who Goofs the Curve, so I’m not gonna dish on the dollars . . . at least for now, anyway

As to identifying genuine-vs-reproduction? --- well . . .

. . . here’s what I look for/think about when it comes to An Old Frame . . .

(And everything here is just my opinion, OK? . . . so consider what it cost you --- then take it for what it’s worth )

I) Old
Old frames are/look Old . . . as in krusty/nasty. Nobody took care of these things --- ever --- and (if they were even left on a vehicle) most were left to just quietly decompose on the back-sides of whatever they were stuck to . . . w/o anyone knowing/caring --- Porsche owners included

II) Beat
Old frames are NOT well-made/durable. Look --- I think that this stuff was the automotive equivalent of a business card . . . a casual give-away/souvenir/reminder of a transaction that not every Buyer considered pleasant, w/ no value-added + totally disposable + virtually worthless. Most Old-timers deliberately tossed these things the first chance they got --- ‘no free advertising,’ etc. No one sure-as-hell paid to ‘dress-up’ their car w/ these --- not like today. Dealers knew this . . . and so not-a-lot of attention/effort/expense went into them --- at least not by the Dealers. If any frame maker eg like RWB &Co made a quality product, it was because RWB &Co wanted to . . . and may’ve gone outta business for their trouble

So. Nice ‘n’ shiny? NOT. For me, these two characteristics alone will identify/disqualify/eliminate 95% of the license frames that I’ve seen on offer. I just don’t think that this stuff survives ‘nice’ . . . . . . and was never intended to survive, at all. The only genuine NOS items that I’ve ever seen? . . . usually appear in grainy old period print ads/photos of car shows + dealer show room + Dad Brings New Car Home-type stuff. Seriously --- old pics are some o’ the best (sometimes, only) guides to how these things really looked. As for any genuine/honest-to-goodness NOS . . . the closest things I’ve seen were found casually hung on garage/basement/outhouse walls instead of sh!t-canned, like most were back-in-the-day . . . and even those have issues . . . and only go back to mid-‘70s

Anything earlier --- like, ‘50s or ‘60s? . . . would only exist/be found in Another Dimension . . . kinda like, The Twilight Zone

Or a barn, maybe. Filled w/ Nitrogen. In the Sahara

But just because a frame is suitably UN-nice . . . doesn’t mean it’s NOT a reproduction


Quick digress . . .

I don’t think that there’s anything wrong w/ reproductions, per se. Re-pros make available to The Many what would otherwise only be available to The Few --- and usually for a lot less money, too. Trust me --- the money in some of these is beyond stupid. I mean, we’re talking about a license frame ferrcryinoutloud . . . not like something that anybody/any car really/actually needs, right? Things get complicated when the Re-pros start to out-number/dilute the effect of the Originals . . . sometimes to the point where few people would even know what The Real Ones look like

Or a re-pro gets passed-off as genuine

Or someone pays a Genuine price for a Re-pro piece

Now, for me, certain frames are almost automatically ALL suspect. . . Polak, Iverson, Brumos all come to mind immediately. Why? ‘Cause there are a ton of ‘em out there. OK-OK --- maybe these were/are big-time dealers but seriously . . . how many cars could these Guys’ve sold back-in-the-day? . . . + how many frames could’ve come through? So, any widely-seen/-esteemed/-coveted frame gets extra scrutiny (see below)

Conversely, there are others I almost automatically regard as NOT re-pros precisely because they are so obscure. Eero Volkswagen in Juneau? Or Lloyd Brown in Tulsa? Who’s even heard of these outfits? I think that these kindsa frames are prolly gonna be genuine because ---- nobody cared . . . not then/now . . . well --- at least not enough to re-produce ‘em

‘Cause the next thing I do is to compare a new/unfamiliar frame that I haven’t seen to the others that I have --- like the Eero and Brown + others in that P-dealer thread. Any maker’s IDs? What about the shape/cross-section of the verticals? Any details to compare? That's why those shaggy/scratchy/nasty old veterans make the best references, I think

Anyway . . . back to what I look for . . .

III) Verticals
This is kind of a key one --- and easy to spot. It looks to me like the Makers of Re-production frames seem to use a wider/more-angular/squared-off kinda shape (in cross-section) for the vertical portions of their frames. I say this because most of the OG stuff that I’ve seen/held/owned seems to have a noticeably softer/rounder section to their verticals

(In fact --- I’m kinda at the point where anything w/ a noticeably/distinctly square-section vertical gets tossed in w/ all the nice-n-shiny stuff . . . . as I’ve yet to see what I could believe to be an OG frame w/ squarish ones)

IV) Details
Older frames --- especially RWB &Cos’s . . . sometimes have some very finely-done detailing --- especially in the lower corners . . . that’s almost unique. Some of their frames even have this delicately-worked relief to the back-round of the lettering window that seems to mimic/accentuate the effect of a metallic paint finish --- pretty spectacular when you look at it up close, actually

V) Robert W. Brown &Co, Downey, CA
Straight-up --- if I see this Maker’s name on the back of a frame . . . then I can believe that frame to be 100% Genuine. I’m goin’ out on a limb here --- but I have never seen a frame w/ RWB &Co’s name on the back that didn’t pass every test that I’ve listed above

HtH



1) 'Gold Standard' . . . straight, un-restored, krispy as a crouton . . . and one o' my favorites. NOS? How 'bout KOS

2) Here's a look at what I regard as a typical '60s bit: softly-rounded frame --- especially the verts . . . cross-hatched LP-type detailing to the letter-box back-round, crisp lettering. Note the rust blooms. As OG as it gets

3) License frame as jewelry. Delicate/intricate/super-fine scribing bestowed upon an otherwise anonymous corner of some silly dealer give-away. There's more . . . note the amount of soft raised relief performed in the back-round of the letter-box. Even if the paint was flat --- all this twinkling/changing surface would make me think it glitters. A Faberge of a frame

4) RWB &Co stamp . . . as tight and precise on the back as the front --- and, unless you're looking for/at it . . . never to be seen

5) Period pic. A Wester, from the '73 Parade. NOS by another name . . . 'Porsche AUDI,' w/ black lettering on a white back-round?

[mfitton]

FYI if anyone is interested Brumos in Jacksonville still produces there vintage style license plate holders, they are $20 each on their website.

[LongRanger]

There were several dealerships selling Porsches, under the Carlsen name. This/these are the ones run by Carl Carlsen . . .

From the '68 and '69 PDLs . . .

Carl R Carlsen, Inc
1600 Van Ness Ave
San Francisco, CA 94109

. . . then, according to the '71 . . .

California Porsche Audi
1701 Van Ness

. . . and then, in '72 . . .

Carlsen Porsche Audi
1701 Van Ness


Outfit's still in business, too, by-the-way . . .

http://www.carlsenporsche.com/index....FWdxQgod-HsAWg

Interesting history there . . . apparently Gus Mozart and Carl Carlsen combined their stores ~1969


Anyway, no sign of paint on the letters (?) and only the faintest traces of white, on the edges of the back-round, looks like, w/ the whole frame finished-off in a gold wash/anodize, no maker ID’d. Plate = std CA pass iss, w/ yr-of-exp reg sticker


And I’m almost certain that this frame originally came from 9111300152 --- ‘Peaches’ . . .

http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...hlight=peaches

[LongRanger]

From the '69, '70 and '72 PDLs . . .

Sunland Motors, Inc
3131 East Fremont St
Las Vegas, NV

Hhhh

I'd really hoped that this might be a Real Frame when I first got it . . . had good colors, decent LP-type scribing in the picture-windows, even the worn-away paint on the lettering . . .

. . . but the longer I look at it? . . . . . . . it's prolly cr@p-er . . . re-po

(Hey --- it happens)

Like, take a look at that Porsche shield . . . looks kinda 'special', huh? . . . so poorly done, I can barely tell what it is. And even though the lettering is kinda 'worn' (not so much 'patinated' as 'Scotch-brited,' maybe?) --- chrome is otherwise un-blemished . . . no pitting or flaking or rust-blooms, at all. Plus? --- has those d@mn squared-off verticals!

Then, of course, somewhere in my various + sundry sojourns on the 'net . . . I come across an image of the Real Thing --- and it looks completely different. Of course

Hhhh

Didn't pay much, but still . . . good reason to post on this thread

Well . . . at least the nasty plate is real . . . reg NV pass iss, w/ mo + yr-o'-exp, 'C' prefix indicates Clark County --- Vegas, Babies

[Jay Laifman]

Here is mom in dad's 1959 356 in the spring of 1960 - so less than one year old. Dad bought it new at Jack McAfee's (he also used to get his MG TD that he raced tuned at Jack McAfee by some young kid named Ken Miles).

Per another thread, I just found the current owner of this car - the son of the guy who bought it from my dad.

[LongRanger]

. . . aka Allred Brothers

One of the longer-lasted older dealerships, starting w/ VWs in the '50s, adding Porsches at some point, lasting until the mid-'70s (?) . . .

From the '68 PDL . . .

422/106/1
Allred Brothers, Inc
1220 South Brand Blvd

. . . becoming . . .

Allred Porsche Audi
1620 So. Brand

. . . then, ~'71, moving to . . .

1801 So. Brand

. . . always in Glendale

Not a lot of history on this outfit, surprisingly. But they seem to be best remembered for an interesting-green '49 Split-window Type I that they kept in their showroom

Lotsa frames for these Guys, the earliest that I can find having VW + Porsche on them, prolly used thu the '60s 'till ~'70 . . . when Audi etc . . .


This one looks to be dull-white-lettering on a dull-blue back-round, flash-chromed, RWB &Co . . . but there are others . . .

[LongRanger]

. . . like these . . .

1) + 2) 'Fat' panels w/ VW + Porsche --- white lettering on red + blue back-rounds

3) thru 5) 'Fat' panels w/ Allred only --- red + blue lettering on white back-rounds . . . RWB &Co

[LongRanger]

There is one other style, possibly the oldest (?) . . . note the frame style/shape, the Porsche crest, and particularly the font

Also --- these older styles seem to come in pairs . . . front + back (?)