Upgrades What Is Acceptable?

[VIper Green E]

At casual glance they are similar, it is under the skin. I know that Schmidt did a full page on this very question about two years ago that was posted here and in one of the Rgruppe newsletters. Here is what the differences are on a series 1,2 RS v.s. a stock 911S, based on a recent phone conversation with Schmidt, who but the way no longer post here do to the lack of standardization in the forum. I have heard that several others are starting a limited access Porsche standards board that will be only technical for all early models and special models throught the 70's. It will be limited access with I think he said like 7-10 moderators such as Glaverbel, GeorgeK, Fryer, Eurotech, St.Peter, and a couple others. It should be outstanding. Back to the RS.

Differences.


50% of the body shell is 12% lighter. All exterior panels, roof, doors, decklid, hood, dash top ext. Schmidt says that the bare body shell with nothing on it is about 75 pounds lighter.
Engine
Transmission with internal pump tall gears
Flares
Reinforced torsion tube
Reinforced trailing arms
Reinforced spindels on the Bilstein front struts
Forged aluminium cross member not cast
Ducktail
Plastic tank
Wheels
I could not write as fast as Schimdt talks so Iam know there are more things I could not write down.
Most important is that these 1,2 series cars were all built as a Homologation special, a lightweight to be weighted and certified before the conversion order was filled to complete as a touring car. Very unique that ALL series one and two car were at one time rolled across the scale at a max weight of 1980lbs, EVERY ONE.

You can say none of the above about a Targa. For those who are interested, Schmidt has been offering his usual excellent knowledge via personal email. It is to bad his outstanding knowledge of these cars wont be shared on this forum, but the new forum as all technical, no chit chat, Iam looking forward to it.

[john rice]

Just FYI:

First, I feel that I can offer a degree of authority as I was one of those guys who loved the idea of the RS from the day in 1972 when I first read about them. I saved every bit of info I could get on them and let me tell you that was not easy in the 70s in the US. I owned my first RS 20 years ago. I liked it a LOT better when most of the guys who had them or knew anything about them were the die hard performance driving enthusiasts. Now that they are so valuable their usefulness is severely diminished.

An now.... Gents, even most of the really mint RS cars have been rebuilt. My first RS had a racing history and a LOT of very hard use. Now it looks like every other pretty much mint condition RS and its history has been lost but it sure looks pretty now. It was restored long enough ago that it now has its own patina and looks like one of those little used, well kept examples. If it were for sale today and represented as totally original and all.... how many "experts" could tell the difference?

The all lightweight RS cars were produced through chassis 1036, not 1000. As far as anyone knows 1036 was the point where they no longer had complete sets of body panels. A LOT of the later cars have a variety of lightweight body panels on them- just not ALL of the specific parts. For example my car, 1122, has the thin roof panel and a few other bits like that. The oil pump was not specific to all RS cars, neither was the plastic fuel tank and a many other bits. It all depended on how the car was ordered and which market it was intended for. Another example- if the car was going to a country that drives on the left side of the road it would have been RHD but you will not find that in THE RS book.

A fun part of these cars is since they really solely intended for the racing program is that there are a lot of little bits that never made print. What does make them so special and so valuable today [until the bomb hits. It will...] is that: 1/They were designed for racing and a resounding success. 2/A stock RS, of any specification, has unique and ideal driving characteristics that are absolutely lovely to experience. 3/A great many of them were produced with unique graphics which set them apart from the rest of the Porsche line.

In terms of the best RS or whatever, you need to realize that EVERY Carrera RS through chassis #1000 was first completed to lightweight specification and driven, individually, to the TUV and specifically registered and weighted. They were then driven back to the assembly lines and whatever changes necessary for the customer order where then done. In other words, if it was ordered to lightweight specification it was left as is. If it was a Touring, the lightweight bits were removed and replaced with suitable parts. So- this TO ME means that the ONLY true Carrera RS Lightweight is through chassis 1000. ALL of these specific cars were originally constructed and registered in lightweight form. Think for a second. This means that any car up through #1000 could "properly" be put in lightweight trim as that is how the car was FIRST built and driven. It was only afterwards that each M472 got its trim so the ORIGINAL construction of everyone was as a lightweight. I think this is much more significant than a later car with a standard body which was sold in lightweight trim BUT with all regular [standard thickness] body panels and such.

Ok. That was my two bits worth on RSs.

If you are talking about the "whys" on the Early S Registry, you need to realize that it was formed to keep these cars in one piece, enjoy them and because the early S cars were in a unique highly tuned state for street cars. I doubt many hear realize this but IN THE DAY they were a real bitch to keep running clean and driving smooth. We are talking pre CD boxes and all and they were pretty much the domain of real enthusiast owners who were willing to put up with having to always drive at high revs and use them or be running on 4-5 cylinders.

On originality. To each his own. I do agree that it is nice to keep a really nice stock 911 as such. There are so many already modified that are available for personalization.

I don't see why anyone would be a picky purist and have Carrera chain tensioners as an acceptable mod. The later SC/Turbo units with a set of chain locks were fine. In fact, if upgraded internally with the larger right side chain wheel bushing, almost never fail. If you have them with chain locks you have a 100% stock looking engine and no fears of the dreaded chain jumping a tooth. If you care....

I am disheartened to readabout a new "insider- expert" group forming that will lock everyone else out. I thought the whole idea here was sharing opinions, experience, and expertise. A group entirely composed of "experts" sounds like a pretty boring group of elitists. ...and WHO is going to determine who IS the genuine expert anyway? Because THEY claim to be? I have seen more than one self-appointed expert whose knowledge lacks depth. Well, I hope they have fun with each other.. If I somehow misinterpreted the idea I apologize, if not it would sound like they deserve each other.

Last-really, this time I mean it- a good magazine for those of you who are interested in value/collectiblity/and all the other related issues: Sports Car Market. Many years ago it was the Alfa Romeo Market Letter and has evolved into a slick publication. It too sometimes is a bit elitist but it is a wealth of information about a lot of these subjects as they apply to enthusiast cars and owning them.

Meanwhile I hope the enthusiasts here remember to KEEP THE REVS UP!

John Rice

[911pcars]

Here, here. John.

Nice rant. :-)

Sherwood

[bob tilton]

KEEP THE REVS UP!
John Rice

I'll give you a "phat" amen for that and then some John!

[AbbyAk]

I am no expert (obvious) but I certainly enjoy the info on this forum. As a relative latecomer to these cars, I like all the info I can get and drink it up. To me, it would be a shame for a few to disembark and not allow great info to be shared by all.

I understand there are frustrations and personality conflicts here. Hey, they are part of life and anywhere you go. Some times the repartee (sp?) is even fun to read , but should never get personal. Cars are great, but they hopefully aren't a person's entire meaning of self. Misers are fine, but they -like everyone end up dead anyway, they just die with more money.

It would be too bad if alot of great info "died" with a person or small group while there are others who enjoy the info and look forward to it.. Personally, I get alot more enjoyment out of my toys or posessions when others enjoy them. Things that are locked away, really become just more things...

My .02

[RandyWebb]

One interesting thing about the '73 RS cars is P AG did not use a lot of the light wt. techniques used for the 911 R.

[VIper Green E]

The new site that Jeff was describing to me is not going to be limited by viewers it will be monitored by a chosen group of experts.

Everyone benefits from information that is correct and reliable. I know very little about the tech. side of things. Would it not be nice if a site was developed that would be mediated and monitored by a group of experts that have way more knowledge than most of us do. The threads would stay on task and people could get true and correct information quickly.

The whole point that I was venting for Jeff is chit chat is great but why not develop a site that is monitored by a chosen few to protect the credibility of the site itself.

Jeff is a very technical person that is passionate about early cars. He has studied every aspect of an early car along with re-building cars from the ground up. He knows as much as anyone I have ever met.( I bet there are a few people on this site that would probably agree with me.) With out his knowledge many of my projects would have taken way more time and energy.

I can't wait for his site to come on line. I am sure most of us on this site will be viewing his site as well. Is Jeff's opinion sometimes controversial, of course, that is Jeff, controversial or not the guy is usually right on.

Don't you think there is room for an ask the experts, 911 site? I do.

[911pcars]

"The new site that Jeff was describing to me is not going to be limited by viewers it will be monitored by a chosen group of experts."

Joe,
Who's Jeff? I might have missed the link. What's the website? Who are the experts? Experts in what field?

I just don't know.
Sherwood

[gymmoe]

Joe, if you reread my last reply, I admit that there is much more differences with the lightweights, I was refering to the De Luxe touring AFTER the first 1000 or so built(in other words in the last 500 or so). When these cars came fully loaded, there is not much difference than the 1973 911S. These RSs started life as a 73S body, they had door pockets like the 73S, sun roofs,twin batteries,same glass,same type of steel body panels,same seats,same carpet,same trans. The only difference was the ducktail,rear flared fender with 7"rims ,and the 2.7 engine and the difference between the 2.7(911/86 engine) and the 2.4(911/53 engine) was suttle,in fact these engines are identical in every way except for 90mm bore pistons and Nikasil cylinders.In fact did you know that the specific output of the RS 2.7 engine was actually slightly lower than that of the S 2.4,but yes I know the total horsepower was increased from 190 DIN to 210 DIN, thats why I said specific output(if you don't believe me you can read this in THE PORSCHE 911 STORY by Paul Frere, pages 54-55. Joe I think the problem is you keep talking about the first 1000 or so (aka Lightweights) and I'm talking about the next 500 or so that were fully loaded tourings.These cars are still 73 Carrera RSs and go for alot of money they are just not much different than the 73 911S,except for the few(smile) things I mention. If you don't believe me thats cool,but do me a favor and ask you friend Jeff this specific question: What is the difference between a 73 RS De Luxe Touring, fully loaded ,built between 1100-1590 and a 73 911S fully loaded also? Please don't say oil cooler on trans because alot didn't have this or side graphics. JIM

[sithot]

RE: "The new site that Jeff was describing to me is not going to be limited by viewers it will be monitored by a chosen group of experts."

I could write a book but the issues were covered in Psychology 101.

Tom