The real 73 RSR TF Winner - Porsche Factory Scam??

[HughH]

Chuck
great photos!

Just to be devils advocate in regard to RS #20 (R2):

How do we know that the photo in the Wagenpass is indeed of R2?
That livery, and the number 3 was used by the marketing department. Indeed that car (or more likely one looking like it) was present at the press conference for the 1973 season where the Martini and Rossi sponsorship deal was announced. So how many were there running around in the identical livery and number as a marketing exercise?

I don't know the date of the press conference but it was likely to be late 1972 early 1973 so what is the chance of that #3 car there being the 72 shown on this thread?

Assuming it is R2 in the wagenpass photo, I can't see an oil door on the photo but the resolution is poor. The Wagenpass is dated March 73, well after the Tour De Corse in Nov 72 and even in the photos of R2 in that event I can't see an oil door.

So what is wrong with the theory that R2 went to the Targa, along with R6 and R8 and a couple of other cars but did not get to run due to accident damage .

This scenario would be that all three R cars were genuine 3 litre prototypes based on 73 shells (and one would have expected them to run in prototype class).

However, interestingly, according to the entry list, initially only car #8 and car #9 were entered in prototype class - or "sport 3000". #107 was entered in "GT over 2000" along with RSR's #110, #112 and #113 and other 911's #109, #111 & #114. (for what it is worth #106 came 7th; #113 came 8th and #110 came 18th so there were plenty of RSR's and RS's there)

We know that R6 won. However maybe both R2 and R8 had accidents in practice - there are, as this thread suggests, rumors of 2 cars striking trouble - and 2 1972 shell based mules were pressed into service for the race as #9 and #107.

That would mean that R2, presumably the museum car, simply did not compete in the race, rather than it being on a 72 shell as the videos seem to show.

From the original video in the car park at practice, day 1 #107 had the same front livery as R2 shows in the Wagenpass. Maybe IT was R2 but it was replaced for the race with a 72 shell car. Presumably any press or "T" car would also be tricked up like the publicity #3 car to get the best publicity for the sponsors. So it would not necessarily be correct to assume that just because the scuttle shows mismatching centre stripes like those on R2's wagenpass that this was indeed R2.

[fg1227]

i 'm pretty sure rs#016 was used as press car then there was an accident in practice of the targa and it was pressed into service for the race;the car beneath it's paint had original factory martini strips,it was built in 7/72 with a
'72 shell.I don't know were it is today,I SOLD IT TO KEVIN JEANETTE,I think he sold it to phil bagley

[HughH]

Great info Frank

Some of the resto of that car is on the Gunnar racing site - including the martini stripes under the scuttle - but the whole story behind the car was never revealed on the site

[letsrollbabe]

I believe a #3 press car was the same car as the red Strahle car based on photos in the RS Book showing the rear bumper with a mud guard that appears to be the same, plus the exhaust opening in the metal rear bumper, along with other attributes. I believe the FG bumperettes were added to the stock metal license panel to make the car look like the standard RSR, just based on these photos.

The red 72 shown earlier in this thread appears to have the front spoiler changed from the Strahle race version, as well as the sponser and number gumball on the hood, but it still appears to be the same car.

It is possible that there were more than one press car with #3. Chuck's picture of #3 appears to show a deeper front spoiler than the 107 car shows in the Porsche Sport picture from the TF, so maybe 020 also carried that number for press purposes.

Whether the museum car is in fact the 107 car from the TF may be doubtful, but here are some attributes about the museum car (if it is 020) that would suggest it is not a "new 491 RSR" but a converted 72.

Dash is from a production 911
Headliner shows rear opening windows had been there
Oil door release hole in B pilar and tank mount boss

The hood in my opinion is definitely from the 107 car.

Jim Calzia's comments about E42 still leave a mystery as to what VIN that car was, and which paint scheme it carried.

Gib

[HughH]

Gib

I would tend to agree with you that the red "Strahle car", known to be a covert factory prototype RSR, the red 72 pictured with the white RS (at Paul Ricard?), and the #3 "wind tunnel" car are all one and the same car.

Starkey identifies this as "Originally a 911S/T 2.5 M491. 9112300841 – Noted as "Scrapped" 25/08/72". and then manufactured and renumbered as 9113600002.

I think this is also Singer's E42, and Jim Calzia made a similar comment. It would certainly fit the description. I think it may also be the #3 car shown as the "press car" you posted on post #103.

IF so, it would possibly have had that livery when used as a T car at the Targa, and with not much effort (a changed engine and a new bonnet and numbers) it could resemble the pics of #107, and on return to the factory it was used in the wind tunnel again as #3. (the #3 car in the wind tunnel has identical decals and oval roundels to the 107 car save for the number and the bonnet that we cant see).

I must say I am becoming more sceptical about whether the museum car is indeed R2 given Gib's observations.

On a related note can anyone identify the first Pic below - race number 8 with the arrow lke the #3 car but with a "mary stuart" and a very deep spoiler?
the second is R7 (#686) (race number 6 and an arrow ) at Nurburgring on 27 May 1973, and the third I have just found in researching this - another side of #107 at the Targa - but sadly not adding any light to this debate.

The reason is I am trying to work out whether the different livery styles for the Martini stripes were assigned to individual cars - thus maybe helping to identify #107 and #9 as I have never seen the #9 car style on any other car.

[letsrollbabe]

Hugh:

I agree with your comments about 107 being the 002 E42 car, and Jim Calzia's comments from Singer's notes seem to also.

Looking further at the RS book, the 020 car (EO-ZA-69) identified as Larrousse's drive in the 72 Tour de Corse, you can see the engine bay decals, along with rear flares that appear to be bonded on which would suggest that it was not an original RSR, but remanufactured from another car. It was described as being converted from a "rally" car to a "track" car. Also, in the spec listing section, 020 has only a roll bar and aux. heater as options, along with Michelin tires which no other RS/RSR seems to have. All these factors seem to suggest that it was not a newly built 491 RSR (all of which had Dunlop tires) but a converted car, which would fit with the production features I photographed on the museum car. It could have been a converted 72S, or a 471/472 RS (built with a 72 oil door release hole) that was converted to RSR specs.

Gib

[HughH]

Gib
I see what you say about LEO ZA 69. It is supposed to be the Larrousse #2 car in the Tour de Corse which is supposed to be R2.
The rear guard looks very "tacked on" but that photo is not consistent with other photos I have of Larrousse in the event. Maybe that photo is really of the modified ST? or after an "off"
One other complicating factor is that I have photos (below) that show that race #2 (supposedly R2) was on a car with registration 68 AND 69 at some stage around that rally.

Another photo of race #2 on registration # 68 is in the B&W photo on page 163 of the RS book! So that makes it uncertain which chassis you have in your photo

I have attached some other ones of #2 in the event - they look fine to me.

I am not sure that I would take any notice of the engine bay decals. I think they were on many RSR's as well as on the RS's.

On another matter this is interesting:
Extract from race report of 1973 Targa page 175 of RS book

"After Giulio Pucci destroyed both the practice car (described earlier on that page as "mongrel" an older vintage car supplied by the Porsche test division- outfitted with racing suspension and a series production 210 hp engine) and the competition car during the practice laps, Porsche racing chief Singer decided to put a 300-HP replacement engine in the old training "mongrel" and race it. Gunther Steeckkonig, Porsche technician and amateur race car driver, joined forces with young Pucci and piloted this car to a sixth-place overall finish."

To me this clearly states that Mongrel was #107 in the race. We know that #8 was 588, which means that car #9 was RSR #20 or R2 - if all of this can be believed (unless IT was the race car "destroyed" by Pucci). If so whatever happened to R8 .

The photos clearly show car #9 with an oil door.

Obviously this does not solve the identity of "mongrel" - just adds one more twist

[letsrollbabe]

I do see that both 68 and 69 have the #2 roundel on them in those pictures. Not sure why that would happen. On p. 162 in the RS book there are additional pictures of the car with the tacked on flares, and I think these were taken at the Paul Ricard track after 020 R2 had been "transformed from a rally to race car" as discussed in the RS book. I think the flares would have been part of the transformation process. Also, the R1 68 car had an incident in Corsica and then was used for a long stint as a test vehicle on the "Panzer" track (not sure where that is), so it does not seem to have been taken to the TF in 73.

I agree with your conclusion that R2 020 was the #9 car in the TF, and it was called into action after Pucci damaged 2 cars in practice. This car was not painted in Martini livery as noted earlier as it was a practice vehicle apparently brought along by Singer.

I think the "Mongrel" was 107 based on the summary of the event on pgs. 175, 176 in the RS book. It had been the Strahle car, the #3 press car, and had a 210 hp RS engine for some reason prior to being used in the TF with one of Singer's 3.0 race engines, so had a very mixed up heritage at that point.

I think these facts seem to confirm earlier comments about the museum car being a remanufactured 72 ST, as do the pictures of the 69 car from the Tour de Corse rally that you posted (even though you can't see the oil door).

Gib

[patrick911]

surely i detect a challenge here ?
First person to get the hood up and chassis number of the car in the museum gets ... well nothing ... but is a real hero ??!!

would certainly assist in the discussion !!!

Eh, sorry guys. Went there yesterday with the missus after following this thread with great interest for months. We waited for the woman at the museum to be looking the other way before opening the rubber straps en lifting the hood for making these pictures, just before we were interrupted:



So, unfortunately, two sharp pictures, but no VIN! I stupidly expected the interior to be similar to my 911T, but without the carpet, so I pointed the camera to the left side.... forgetting the extra large tank and the strange place for the battery. So, sorry for that, but at least the good news is:
1) it is possible to open te hood. (even without being thrown out)
2) If someone tells us here where exactly to look for in a RSR we did get one step further.....

[John Starkey]

REALLY enjoying this thread!

I think we are missing two major points here:

1: Which were the two RSRs that Pucci crashed in practice?

2: What happened to 0002 after the Targa Florio? It has never, to my knowledge, re appeared. Doesn't this make it a prime candidate to be one of the two cars Pucci crashed?

Have fun!

John Starkey