R Gruppe Hijack

[}{arlequin]

But its clear this isn't an R Gruppe car or an R Gruppe member--that's all the info needed I think

(when did i miss the 2nd coming of the inquisition?)
info needed? needed for what? to condemn him? to make fun? to say, 'it's not a REAL rgruppe car?' LOL, what makes a real rgruppe car? blueberry jelly bean flavor'd blue colored car w/ shaved gutters? c'mon...

If he'd advertised it as "Project Car: R Gruppe Style/Potential" or some such then there would have been some truth in advertising.

i think it's clear from the pics that the car is a work in progress....not finished. which by definition ends up being a project car for someone to finish... are we gonna be the english language syntax police now?

I think its clear there is a style and definition, though fairly wide and loose, and that, as I've already said, this car is far from, again for so many reasons.

it's 'far from' *because* it's not finished. are there checklists to go by so that you know your car qualifies for the rgruppe criteria? (is there an rgruppe vin that's issued to make it 'authentic'?) is there a certain number of real vintage or nos parts that have to be installed on a car to meet that criteria? i don't know, but i haven't seen any checklists, and neither has this guy. if it's simply arbitrary, then say so. but if there are areas that need to be "pre-approved" then maybe they should be listed, no? so in his mind, he's on his way to building an rgruppe car. why would you say "it's not rgruppe" before it's even completed? again, is the nuance of the written english language enough to put down the car and its owner's intentions?

... I think its clear there is a style and definition, though fairly wide and loose, and that, as I've already said, this car is far from, again for so many reasons.

i don't think it's clear, and that's the whole point. this guy obviously doesn't think it's clear either. what are these reasons that you are pointing out? not enough nos parts? not 'vintage' enough? wrong wheels? paint not finished? what if he said he was planning on painting it 'mcqueen gray'? would that be enough? what if he says he's got 15x9 and 15x11 fuchs on order? would that be enough?

the point is, there is a vintage feel/side to an rgruppe car and then there is the balls-out perfomance side to the cars as well. many fall in between. maybe this is the one that's a 'tweener'. i just don't know how you can dismiss a claim just on looks alone.

a hot rod is a personal creation. since rgruppe was based on the hot rod (NOT concours nor 'authentic vintage') mentality, maybe the lines are blurred a little. too blurred for this guy to see them clearly. i'm sure if he was told that this and this needs to be present to qualify for the 'rgruppe label' he'd probably comply with them. the point is that to *this* guy the car is viewed as rgruppe-style. what's the point of pointing out that it isn't so? he thinks it, shouldn't that be enough?

what's the point of labelling a flawless early car replica a hot rod when sometimes all it really is a 'basic' car that used to sit on a dealership floor 30+ years ago? surely it's not a hot rod... but yet....

if you put out vague 'rules-n-regulations' out there, you're gonna have a lot of confused would-be members. either those things will be clear, and as long as you meet the criteria then it's an rgruppe car, or it's not. as it stands, who gets to say which nos parts make the car qualify?

[}{arlequin]

}{arlequin--"wheels not being period correct? are you kidding????" --In a technical aspect-no they belong on a 993. but with that special smile I can that you are kidding . I have done worse....(than cup wheels).

He must have his Fuchs out for polishing.....

well yes, i think you get the point. i'm clear on what wheels make a 'vintage look' car, but maybe this guy isn't. if someone told him, or showed him a checklist, then maybe he'd install the correct ones on there as well. either way, wheels don't really disqualify a car from its status, or do they? like i said, it only takes 7 minutes w/ a harbor freight jack to change the wheels. would it be ok to call this car an rgruppe car IF he had a set of deep 6's sitting next to it in the picture? or does this whole thing revolve around 'acceptance' and membership? i just find a paradox in a hot rod club having a need to 'qualify' a hot rod. if it's a hot rod then it just "IS". maybe not to you, but it still "IS" a hot rod. it's someone's vision...

[Noah]

Okay, okay dave, I'll get you an invite to R Gruppe...jeez...

[Chuck Miller]

Gentlemen, please...

[Cornpanzer]

But Dad, its so much fun!
Your right, enough.

[RickS]

Is being right so important? Is defending or tearing down an add so important? We will all soon be dust and distant memories. In the course of all things, this is less than nothing. There are for more important principals worth defending on this earth. There are principals of life, starvation, and humanity. Let it go and pick a more worthy battle.

[Gburner]

R Gruppe equiped could mean anything?
Maybe the seller thinks that this label means as much as a moded Porsche with proven lap times or class wins in PCA/POC?

[jtr996]

Boy, I wish I had seen this post earlier! I'm sorry but I have been busy working and haven't checked the post lately. I received a SCATHING PM from Ed (R Gruppe # 124) and it prompted me to do some reading. It seems as though I have really offended some of (I hope just some of) our R Gruppe brethren. Let me attempt to set the record straight. I bought the '73 Targa PROJECT car in its present state. It appealed to me for a variety of reasons including, good solid body, low-mile fully documented car, original 2.4 motor with recent rebuild to 2.7 hot rod specs (sort of a mix of RS and S specs. by looking at the receipts and part #s), flared rear fenders, RSR rear bumper (not on car presently), etc. My thinking was that I would take the car to my favorite body shop and either replace the Turbo flares with RS flares or just flare the fronts as well and finish what the previous owner started. I realize that there weren't any RS/RSR Targas, but I liked the idea anyway and thought it would go well with my '71 S Coupe with RS rear flares. I, like most of you I suspect, did not care for the previous owner's selection of wheels and planned on replacing them with some Fuchs or if possible some Minilites on the rear with Fuchs on the front (with the proper finish of course, I prefer the frosted look of the RSR cars). I have already purchased some hood mounted Cibies from Oliver in Paris and planned on mounting them as well because I really like that look too. I also have a period correct Race Mark steering wheel that I planned on using in place of the previous owner's Momo wheel. I think it is safe to say (maybe even for Ed) that these things that I WANTED to do to the car would have certainly made the car more of an R Gruppe style car. However, after this thread and after the aforementioned scathing PM I will never write nor utter the word(s) R Gruppe again. It's kind of funny though that I have liked this style of car for a hell of lot longer than the R Gruppe has been around. I just never really had a name for it until they came along. Guess I'll have to find my own way of describing the style that appeals to me and many of my fellow Early 911 S members as well. Also, you will notice that in my signature line it reads R Gruppe member # not yet. I did not mean to imply that I was a member. It was simply kind of a joke because I have read that R Gruppe membership is by invitation only and I thought that perhaps someone would see that and perhaps invite me to an event or something. BOY WAS I WRONG! I have been a fan of Porsches for at least the last 25 years. In fact, the gentleman that is responsible for getting me hooked on early 911s still has the very same '70 911 S that he took me for my first Porsche ride in some 25 years ago. It was an R Gruppe car long before there was such a group. He liked the look of the RSR IROC cars so his car closely resembled these cars in many ways. I thought that it was absolutely beautiful! It was fly yellow with huge flares and a huge IROC tail. At that time the car had a 2.8 liter twin-plug RSR spec. motor and real RSR 15 inch Fuchs. I will never forget that ride! I could not believe that a car could accelerate, handle, and stop like that! Of course I was only 15 years old at the time and had not really ridden in many different cars, but it really got me hooked. I've loved 911s since then and still have a close relationship with that gentleman today. He still has the car (I have tried to buy it many times) and it has changed a little over the years (he painted it the original gemini blue and installed a 964 3.6 motor after the original 2.2 case finally grenaded after 200K + miles), but I still think it is one of the coolest cars I have ever seen. He still tells the same stories about rebuilding 4 cam Carrera motors for George Barber (Barber Motorsports Park Founder) and racing against Peter Gregg, Hurley Haywood, et al from the old IMSA days, etc. He and Mr. Barber are charter members of our local PCA chapter here in Alabama of which I am a proud member as well. I hope some of these things better qualify me to be a fan of early 911s. Thank you...Tim Ross Birmingham, Alabama

[Paul Schooley]

LMAO...this thread is becoming a turd that won't go down the bowl

Speaking of turds, does anyone have any tips on repairing 'glass cracks? No, not those cracks, I mean a couple road rash ones on the bottom of my RS wanabe 'glass front bumper. Oh, and while also on the subject of turds, note to myself: Hey, next time wear gloves when you mess around with that resin!

[a911s]

The reality is that using the "R Gruppe" label is done all the time on Ebay and many classifieds. Even if the term "R Gruppe" is trademarked (and I believe it is), it's simply not worth it for the trademark holder to enforce infringements. Those who have followed R Gruppe for any length of time know what is and what is not R Gruppe.

The seller has done all he can do to rectify this situation and we should cut him some slack. I wish him luck with his sale. Like Rick S. said, there are more important things to worry about.