Coachbuilders for Porsche +/- on Value or Perception?

[37yrold911]

What is the difference in weight between the differently manufactured cars?

[nick-moss]

What is the difference in weight between the differently manufactured cars?

I don't know if the wight difference is documented but I have heard from someone who regularly trades STs and other exotic 911 that the works STs were all Karmann built because of the lighter weight, whereas the customer STs were from the regular S series production line at Porsche

[2pt767S]

I would always pick a Karmann out of the 69-71 bodies. Weight will always make a diffrence. As the late great Smokey used to say "the loss of 7 pounds will be compairable too gaining about 1 hp". And since the loss of 100 pounds of is equal to gaining about 10 ponies. Gee the choice is clear to me Mr Obvious.
Regards. Bill

Imagine the performance gained with 97 pound Danica Patrick driving your car in speed events

[Grady Clay]

Pure rumor:

Some time in the ‘70s I asked this question of a group of Porsche KG engineers and executives at a cocktail party. Referring to the post Porsche acquisition of Reuter, the unanimous response was Karmann. The reason told was that Karmann had to exceed Porsche’s specifications trying to retain the contract.

I asked how and the response was fit & finish and the number of spot welds.

True? … who knows?

Best,
Grady

[72targa]

Different Germans...

Tom

I re-read this thread because of another question on the board. Tom, thanks for a great laugh. I needed one this AM.

[John Z Goriup]

After crwaling around in, on, over, through & under many of both types of 911s ( Porsche / Reuter and Karmann ) including a complete bare-metal disassembly and nut & bolt restoration of my own Karmann bodied '70 911 T I have found one single tangible, physical detail that is visibly different between the two coachbuilders:

Porsche/Reuter made cars have a metal brace connecting two brackets, one welded to the underside of the cowl, about midway between the wiper arm mountings, the other on the trunk floor below it. Obviously the purpose of this brace is to stabilize & prevent vibration of the cowl sheet metal, since the entire wiper mechanism is suspended from it

Karmann bodies do not have this brace, or perhaps I should claim in my best legalese, I have never seen a Karrman body equipped with this brace.

Please see the photo I took of a known Porsche / Reuter bodyied specimen, at Parade in Portland in '06. I have indicated the brace with a green arrow. This is the clearest photo I have of that detail. (The reason I took this photo is because I really loved all the detail in Jeff Smith's trunk compartment and I wanted a record of it to emulate his work later on in my machine).

If anyone can show additional specific details that varied between the two other than invoking the old double-secret "certain other differences", please, have at it. I'd love to see them.

Also, I don't believe that there is is a repeatable, consistent 100 lb. difference between the two types of bodies. God only knows how myths like that get started and why these rumors are propagated, but it simply isn't credible to claim that one is that much heavier than the other without being able able to point out where the extra weight resides & is hidden. I submit it's probably the result of comparing weights of dissimilar cars ( S v. T or E, sunroof v. no sunroof, AC v. none, modified cars, etc. inaccurate weighing methodolgy, etc). 100 pound, (approx. 44 kilos ) is a lot of weight, in fact, depending on the model & equipment, that's approx. 4-4.5 percent of the total car......where is it ??

JZG

[KS Carrera]

In VW and 914 circles, Karmann does not have a great reputation for finished details. I think it was more of a case of a coachbuilder trying to 'build down' to a price demanded by a major manufacturer…

[super9064]

After crwaling around in, on, over, through & under many of both types of 911s ( Porsche / Reuter and Karmann ) including a complete bare-metal disassembly and nut & bolt restoration of my own Karmann bodied '70 911 T I have found one single tangible, physical detail that is visibly different between the two coachbuilders:

Porsche/Reuter made cars have a metal brace connecting two brackets, one welded to the underside of the cowl, about midway between the wiper arm mountings, the other on the trunk floor below it. Obviously the purpose of this brace is to stabilize & prevent vibration of the cowl sheet metal, since the entire wiper mechanism is suspended from it

Karmann bodies do not have this brace, or perhaps I should claim in my best legalese, I have never seen a Karrman body equipped with this brace.

Please see the photo I took of a known Porsche / Reuter bodyied specimen, at Parade in Portland in '06. I have indicated the brace with a green arrow. This is the clearest photo I have of that detail. (The reason I took this photo is because I really loved all the detail in Jeff Smith's trunk compartment and I wanted a record of it to emulate his work later on in my machine).

If anyone can show additional specific details that varied between the two other than invoking the old double-secret "certain other differences", please, have at it. I'd love to see them.

Also, I don't believe that there is is a repeatable, consistent 100 lb. difference between the two types of bodies. God only knows how myths like that get started and why these rumors are propagated, but it simply isn't credible to claim that one is that much heavier than the other without being able able to point out where the extra weight resides & is hidden. I submit it's probably the result of comparing weights of dissimilar cars ( S v. T or E, sunroof v. no sunroof, AC v. none, modified cars, etc. inaccurate weighing methodolgy, etc). 100 pound, (approx. 44 kilos ) is a lot of weight, in fact, depending on the model & equipment, that's approx. 4-4.5 percent of the total car......where is it ??

JZG

I agree with John, I just don't see how there could be enough extra spot welds to make up 100lbs of weight, even if the whole car was seam welded it would not add that kind of weight. I can understand a slight difference due to cumulative effects, of variations in welding, rust and sound proofing. At most, that number would be 10-20lbs. I would think the Porsche engineers would be quite upset that the Karmann cars were that much heavier and slower.

[911T1971]

In VW and 914 circles, Karmann does not have a great reputation for finished details. I think it was more of a case of a coachbuilder trying to 'build down' to a price demanded by a major manufacturer…

Different Germans...
Tom

I re-read this thread because of another question on the board. Tom, thanks for a great laugh. I needed one this AM.

Without sounding phony, there is maybe a grain of truth in it, at least 45 years ago:

The south of then West-Germany was either the region of Baden-Würtenberg/Schwäbisch/Schwabenland with Stuttgart as its capital or Bayern/Bavaria with its capital of Munich.

Both regions, after WWll, have been the motor of economic development in West-Germany and also - by the longstanding knowledge of workmanship - coachbuilding/car firms like Mercedes, Porsche, BMW as well as NSU (which later was the technogical base for newer VW as well as the new production site for all Audi's) profited from the easy availability of skilled and welltrained workers to build their products.
There is no coincidence that - expect defunct Borgward and pre-WWll product VW - all major german car makers had their origins in the south and ALSO produced in the south of Germany.
Firms like Bosch, Bilstein, Fuchs and other car accessoires makers too had their origin in this regions or joined them.

The workmen-mentality as well as the base of their language (still today) is an unique "Allemannen-german/Schwäbisch", actually very similar to the german-speaking Switzerland region where (further south of Stuttgart and Munich) a similar workmentality culture exists.

The north of Germany, where Osnabrück/Karmann was located, had historically a totally different industry development which maybe also was felt when skilled coachbuilding workers had to be hired by a factory.

I'm shure this human factor was as important for car makers as to design - or later - selling a car.

[blkferr_az]

I find this bit of information interesting, as I have heard of this dichotomy before. Only in the cases I was privy to (hearing directly from older generation Germans from the north) those in the northern regions had superior abilities to their brothers to the south. It only makes sense (to me) that those building cars in that industrialized part of the south would, on average, be the more skilled. Perhaps I am biased though... My '69 is a Reutter built car.