FS: '74 porsche 911RS 3.0

[EARLY911ZOO]

the first winner was from France and when re-listed with $29K BIN, sold to a local whose name we see alot on some Porsche sites with cars for sale,
user: myeurostuff

[EARLY911ZOO]

my booboo typed $29K instead of $20K



same engine number as existing RS?? something to be concerned about

[JCR]

Okay, so it's pretty clear that this car at one time had a thief for a driver. That's the only explanation for the terribly altered VIN. Someone didn't even CARE to make it look halfway decent. My guess would be if there is no evidence of crash repair, it was stripped, recovered, and tarted up with a body kit. As a buyer, I wouldn't believe the Kremer thing for a minute without evidence. Okay, maybe someone bought the fenders from Kremer or something like that.

But I can't figure out that engine number?? Why would someone alter just one number? How does someone do this and not effect the look and finish around the other numbers? Seems like a LOT of effort to go through... and for what reason?

If it was a Kremer car or someones track car, do you think they would go to this trouble with an altered engine number WAY before RSes were of any value? Could this car have been pieced together by a chop shop, altering all the numbers to make it "clean"? If records list this VIN as a magenta '74 RS, that's pretty compelling evidence (with all the magenta paint) that someone did stamp the actual VIN back in the car.

I'm still trying to figure this one out... any theories?

[john rice]

Gents,
Most of you take this so SERIOUSLY!......

Guys... Back in the day not many people cared and, especially in Europe, a great many RS cars had the pee run outta them and got blown up and and got replacement engines, got clipped, got ...very... rusty, etc. [kinda makes you wonder where all these well kept and numbers matching 73 RS cars all came from? There sure wasn't that many of them 20 years ago. I promise you that. Of course, they hadn't jumped in price nor popularity then either, right?] I am talking back - in - the - day 73 RSs here. So, where would that have left a mere '74 EuroCarrera? No one cared if it got hacked. I find the engine number....interesting. I find the chassis number too obvious to be stolen so it has to be clipped or? It would be fun to inspect the car. I admit that I wonder what it really is but I doubt it will ever be a proper 74 EuroCarrera again. Maybe we will spot it when it reappears. Unless it gets parted, I suspect it will look and be represented MUCH different.

Meanwhile, try to remember that most of these cars got used hard and worn out and there shouldn't be a mystery about some of them still reflecting a hard life.
:->
JR

[fryardds]

John,

I think one of the reasons there are very nice, matching '73 Carreras around is because they car were, by enlarge, considered special from the beginning. Not to say they didn't depreciate soon after purchase like most other cars, but their market value didn't stay depressed below the original purchase price for long. So as a result a fair # of cars seem to have been well taken care of and not turned into race cars.

OTOH, the 74-76 Carrera 2,7 cars were less loved, IMHO, and therefore there are fewer nice examples today than there are of the '73 Carreras. The price of these cars has been low for quite some time and only recently have they caught fire. I am fairly certain this is a '74 Carrera 2.7 car (the tach, thick rimmed steering wheel, sport seats, small rear black rubber bumpers, etc.). I think it is fun to try to figure out how it got to this point and your theory is certainly very possible. To me the most interesting part of this package is the engine. What '73 RS engine is in this car?

[Jens]

Yeah John, It might show up with the problem IDs fixed, er I mean repaired.

"Rode hard and put up wet" (horse ref.) brings to mind a very nice R with everything damn near perfect except the battered and crusty and original vin stamping that speaks to the car's history. 40 years is a long time to be driven hard.

Sorry we missed you at SLO, I look forward to the next time we cross paths. I've got some "one that got away" stories.

All the best, Jens

... Maybe we will spot it when it reappears. Unless it gets parted, I suspect it will look and be represented MUCH different.

Meanwhile, try to remember that most of these cars got used hard and worn out and there shouldn't be a mystery about some of them still reflecting a hard life.
:->
JR

[Allen Henderson]

John,

I think one of the reasons there are very nice, matching '73 Carreras around is because they car were, by enlarge, considered special from the beginning. Not to say they didn't depreciate soon after purchase like most other cars, but their market value didn't stay depressed below the original purchase price for long. So as a result a fair # of cars seem to have been well taken care of and not turned into race cars.

OTOH, the 74-76 Carrera 2,7 cars were less loved, IMHO, and therefore there are fewer nice examples today than there are of the '73 Carreras. The price of these cars has been low for quite some time and only recently have they caught fire. I am fairly certain this is a '74 Carrera 2.7 car (the tach, thick rimmed steering wheel, sport seats, small rear black rubber bumpers, etc.). I think it is fun to try to figure out how it got to this point and your theory is certainly very possible. To me the most interesting part of this package is the engine. What '73 RS engine is in this car?

Don't forget that the 74-76 ROW Carrera was just an orindary 911, the standard model until the improved SC came along. And still, frankly, it is VERY difficult for me personally to get interested in 74 and up Euro Carreras. Why? If I wanted a big bumper car, I'd buy the newest one I could find. No need to get an early car. After all they all look nearly the same and were much improved over the years. The early, pre-1974 cars, e.g. '73 RS, are the epitome of the 911 icons. With perhaps the SWB Ss being the top of the pack there or the prior mentioned RS. A 911/83 RS engine is cool but, frankly, not really all that special. All this IMHO

-Allen-

[J-P]

Don't forget that the 74-76 ROW Carrera was just an orindary 911, the standard model until the improved SC came along. And still, frankly, it is VERY difficult for me personally to get interested in 74 and up Euro Carreras. Why? If I wanted a big bumper car, I'd buy the newest one I could find. No need to get an early car. After all they all look nearly the same and were much improved over the years. The early, pre-1974 cars, e.g. '73 RS, are the epitome of the 911 icons. With perhaps the SWB Ss being the top of the pack there or the prior mentioned RS. A 911/83 RS engine is cool but, frankly, not really all that special. All this IMHO

-Allen-

You would have to get well into the 1980's before you found a normally aspirated big bumper production car that put out the performance of the 74-75 ROW Carrera. And by then, the "much improved" cars were bogged down with AC, lots of interior trim and leather, more stringent impact/safety/emissions standards, heavier steering feel, etc. They were certainly more refined touring cars, but not what most guys on this board are after in these older cars.

The 74-75 non-US Carrera is the same weight, horsepower, and feel of the 73 RS Touring for about a third of the price right now.

I would be curious to know if anyone reading this has data for determining at exactly what model year a production 911's performance was able to match the ROW Carrera. Of course, you can't count Turbos, the SCRS and other cars which are out of category. I think the ROW CIS 3.0 liter was slightly better in some performance categories, but I still wouldn't call it a "better" car overall, and it certainly isn't anywhere near as desirable from a collectibility standard. Another thing guys on this board appreciate is the palpable difference between CIS and MFI.

Just my $.02.

[Allen Henderson]

You would have to get well into the 1980's before you found a normally aspirated big bumper production car that put out the performance of the 74-75 ROW Carrera. And by then, the "much improved" cars were bogged down with AC, lots of interior trim and leather, more stringent impact/safety/emissions standards, heavier steering feel, etc. They were certainly more refined touring cars, but not what most guys on this board are after in these older cars.

The 74-75 non-US Carrera is the same weight, horsepower, and feel of the 73 RS Touring for about a third of the price right now.

I would be curious to know if anyone reading this has data for determining at exactly what model year a production 911's performance was able to match the ROW Carrera. Of course, you can't count Turbos, the SCRS and other cars which are out of category. I think the ROW CIS 3.0 liter was slightly better in some performance categories, but I still wouldn't call it a "better" car overall, and it certainly isn't anywhere near as desirable from a collectibility standard. Another thing guys on this board appreciate is the palpable difference between CIS and MFI.

Just my $.02.

OK here is one source...

From Tobias Aichele Porsche 911 Forever Young
1974 1988
210 231 HP
1075 1210 Weight kg
210 245 Max K/Hr
8.5 6.1 0-60
29 sec. 26.1 1/4 Mile
And yes the 1988 has air, etc...much more comfortable and practical. The 1978 SC, first year: 225 max, 7.0sec 0-60 and 1/4 mile in 27.5. And btw, I used to have a '74 911S. Raced my friend in his SC. Sorry, no contest for me.

-Allen-

[J-P]

OK here is one source...

From Tobias Aichele Porsche 911 Forever Young
1974 1988
210 231 HP
1075 1210 Weight kg
210 245 Max K/Hr
8.5 6.1 0-60
29 sec. 26.1 1/4 Mile
And yes the 1988 has air, etc...much more comfortable and practical. The 1978 SC, first year: 225 max, 7.0sec 0-60 and 1/4 mile in 27.5. And btw, I used to have a '74 911S. Raced my friend in his SC. Sorry, no contest for me.

-Allen-

Thanks for proving my point. You had to jump ahead 14 years to better what you had available in 1974. I also find that 0-60 time to be little dubious, as I believe the 73 RS Touring and 74-75 ROW Carreras ran closer to 7 second times to 100 KPH (62 MPH), and sub 7-second times in 73 lightweight trim.

I appreciate the fact that you had a 74 911S, but that car is not even close to what a driver had in a 74 Euro Carrera motor (165 hp vs. 210 hp). As far as the SC, not sure where those numbers are from, but this has been a topic of discussion before, and the SC never performed as well the 911/83 engined Carreras.

I think the times you posted above are from a US Carrera, which had the same 165 hp motor as the US 911S.