Ultimate ST thread

[Original Poster]

Original post.............................

[letsrollbabe]

Raj:

I think Hugh Hodges has one of the best data bases to start this project, but also John Starkey has a good listing. Not sure how it could best be done, but (1)MY, (2)VIN, (3)ownership, and pictures of the various cars that look like STs in competition from period shots, even when very little is known about them, i.e. items (1), (2), or (3), would be a good start. Pictures are probably the best to anchor the data on each car.

There are some real knowledgeable folks who visit this site with interest in STs, so chime on in here.

[HughH]

Ok here goes

There have been a lot of great posts on this board about ST’s, some by current owners providing a lot of detail about their cars.

Also Raj recently provided a great picture on another thread (reproduced here) showing a list of 1972 ST’s including engine numbers in most cases.

Along with the ST’s were some cars apparently known as SR’s with Group 3 or group 4 modifications? It is not at all clear to me how to differentiate them from ST’s given neither were official designations and there were no specific Vin numbers for either – unlike the RS or R - can anyone help on this aspect?

I have heard somewhere that the ST’s were from 1969 to 1971 and the E series 1972 cars were mainly “SR’s”. Maybe someone on the board with more detailed knowledge in this area can help clarify whether there is any truth in this.

To further complicate this area cars were constructed in at least 3 different ways and to lots of different specifications so that there is probably no such thing as a “typical ST”.

The different production methods included:
1) pulled off the production line and built up as a factory built car in either rallye or track form
2) built up by a customer team using a standard car and factory supplied options kit
3) completely built from scratch by a customer team in which case the vin number may not look anything like a “normal ST”

There are also a lot of different claims on how many such cars were produced. I suspect the answer will only be available for factory constructed cars (if then) as the details of all the customer modified cars and cars built up by race teams to comply with group 3 or group 4 homologation papers are likely to never be known.

I have also seen various references to the claim that the werks only ever used these cars in rallye form and left the track versions (both factory produced and otherwise) to customer teams and privateers.

So to a certain extent I suspect that it is a futile exercise to try and catalogue such cars – although that is a great reason for trying to do it here as it is unlikely that a book like the RS book or Starkey's books will be produced due to these ambiguities.

It is also hard to say if one construction method is “more relevant” or “more important” or “more correct” than another – it probably depends more on the actual car and its history than how it originated although there must always be a “premium” – not necessarily in price terms – placed on a factory produced car with appropriate papers. Indeed the 1972 Kremer and Brumos cars are amongst the more “important” or maybe “famous” ST’s and I understand that they are built up by the respective teams from factory kits and base cars rather than Werks constructed race cars..

However to start the ball rolling I will post details of the cars I have in my database. I have collected these over a substantial period of time. I make no claims about the accuracy of the data except to say that as far as possible it has been checked, and the cars with photos of factory letters or similar identification are probably correct. I would welcome any further information to ad to the collective knowledge in this area. A lot of the information has been sourced from books (such as by John Starkey), websites etc and I would like to acknowledge the contribution made by all of those and posters on this and other boards at the start.

[HughH]

These were the three werks cars for the 1970 Monte Carlo Rallye.

There are numerous references to their Vin numbers and specifications and that a "further 15 or so ST's were produced" (presumably for the 1970 MY) but i don't have any on factory letterhead.

Trying to stick to the "rules" for this thread suggested by Gib and Raj starting with 0001:
model year 1970
Vin 911 030 0001
registration number ST 5704
original use - werks rallye car 1970 Monte Carlo for Waldergard / Helmer
Engine Size: 2.3 Liter
Horsepower: 250
Weight: 1900 lbs
major achievement - winner of 1970 Monte as car 6

I have no competition records post that although it seems that it was used by Siffert as a recce or practice car before the 1970 Targa Florio.
Photos: car 6 at Monte (x3) and S-T 5704 at Targa (x2)

I have no other information as to what might have happened to it

[HughH]

second of 3 werks cars for 1970 Monte
model year 1970
Vin 911 030 0002
registration number ST 5705
original use - werks rallye car 1970 Monte Carlo for Larrousse / Gelin car #2
Engine Size: 2.3 Liter
Horsepower: 250
Weight: 1900 lbs
Most Important Race: 2d Overall Monte Carlo 1970
Developments: Glass Fiber Fenders; Glass Fiber Hood; Glass Fiber Bumpers; First Ever 915 Gearbox; Lightweight Steel Body
Unique Items: Used Cibie Headlights of a type used in America at the time; REPA seatbelts; WEGU mudflaps; 100 Liter Petrol Tank

(thanks to the Kitchak collection the current owners of the car, for some of the information http://www.toadhallracing.com/toad-022.html )

This car also did, as a werks car:
RAC 1970 Björn Waldegård/Lars Helmer car 16 (DNF gearbox)
1970 ACROPOLIS RALLY WALDEGARD / HELMER car 3 (retired broken con-rod after SS4)
pictures:
monte car 2
RAC car 16
acropolis log book (thanks Thomas)
current

PS check out the differences in the front guards between the Monte and the RAC - I have no reason to believe that they are not the same car.

[_gonbau]

Ok here goes

There have been a lot of great posts on this board about ST’s, some by current owners providing a lot of detail about their cars.

Also Raj recently provided a great picture on another thread (reproduced here) showing a list of 1972 ST’s including engine numbers in most cases.

Along with the ST’s were some cars apparently known as SR’s with Group 3 or group 4 modifications? It is not at all clear to me how to differentiate them from ST’s given neither were official designations and there were no specific Vin numbers for either – unlike the RS or R - can anyone help on this aspect?

I have heard somewhere that the ST’s were from 1969 to 1971 and the E series 1972 cars were mainly “SR’s”. Maybe someone on the board with more detailed knowledge in this area can help clarify whether there is any truth in this.

I was wondering why the 1972 series was called SR. It is not the first time that I find this nomenclature but it is not clear to me.
Did you discover anything else with reference to SR Hugh?
Thank you!

[HughH]

On the "SR" all that I can really discern is that that description is/was used to refer to the track oriented cars with M491 option (ie like the later RSR) to distinguish them from the rally oriented cars. Obviously a car could be changed from one specification (and some were) but initially (in 1972 in particular) some were built as rally cars but most as track cars whereas in earlier years (in particular 1970) they were mainly rally oriented.

I DON'T KNOW if that was ever an official internal description or not but as far as I know it was never one used in public. They all were officially 911S's and then with option descriptions - ie 911S 2.5 M491 or 911S M471 etc.

I think that it probably has been adopted at later date to distinguish the track oriented cars but would be happy if someone could correct me by providing an official (internal) document from the period, rather than something recent, describing a car as an SR. I have a build sheet with a handwritten T put between the typed "911S" and "coupe" ion the FAHRZEUG-TYP space on the sheet but not anything more definitive that that

[_gonbau]

On the "SR" all that I can really discern is that that description is/was used to refer to the track oriented cars with M491 option (ie like the later RSR) to distinguish them from the rally oriented cars. Obviously a car could be changed from one specification (and some were) but initially (in 1972 in particular) some were built as rally cars but most as track cars whereas in earlier years (in particular 1970) they were mainly rally oriented.

I DON'T KNOW if that was ever an official internal description or not but as far as I know it was never one used in public. They all were officially 911S's and then with option descriptions - ie 911S 2.5 M491 or 911S M471 etc.

I think that it probably has been adopted at later date to distinguish the track oriented cars but would be happy if someone could correct me by providing an official (internal) document from the period, rather than something recent, describing a car as an SR. I have a build sheet with a handwritten T put between the typed "911S" and "coupe" ion the FAHRZEUG-TYP space on the sheet but not anything more definitive that that

Thank you very much for that information Hugh! For me this car would resemble an SR? I don't know why I think the front parts of this car are made of fiber. The distinction of ST and SR cannot be obtained I suppose but for example in the document of the "sports" department you have the preparations for Rally and the track ones. I understand that as you say, the difference from ST to SR lies in those options!

[RennTyp]

I think that it probably has been adopted at later date to distinguish the track oriented cars but would be happy if someone could correct me by providing an official (internal) document from the period, rather than something recent, describing a car as an SR. I have a build sheet with a handwritten T put between the typed "911S" and "coupe" ion the FAHRZEUG-TYP space on the sheet but not anything more definitive that that

It would be really interesting to see what the earliest official written reference to ST / SR is. I can't remember any period results calling competition 911s by any names other than "S" or "T". Anyone know different and have some evidence?

[Matt Blast]

Hugh,
I have also heard some refer to the '72's as SR's rather than ST's. When the paint on Chassis no. 911 230 0495 was removed with a plastic media, the letters "ST" were written with a marker pen on the bare metal on both doors and on the chassis in the area of the rear shelf. The car has both original doors with the slots for the pull straps. The letters were written before the primer was sprayed onto the car. I will post pictures when available.

Like you I did not know if there was an internal designation of ST in the day. However this supports the fact that some in the factory were calling them ST's at some point during production. Whats your take on this?

Attached are some documents. Note the apparent discrepancy between the two letters. The Barth letter states the car was to be used by the factory. The Spenger letter states the car was sold to an unknown first customer. This is a great thread! Matt
Matt

Matt