Ultimate ST thread

[Matt Blast]

Hugh,
I have also heard some refer to the '72's as SR's rather than ST's. When the paint on Chassis no. 911 230 0495 was removed with a plastic media, the letters "ST" were written with a marker pen on the bare metal on both doors and on the chassis in the area of the rear shelf. The car has both original doors with the slots for the pull straps. The letters were written before the primer was sprayed onto the car. I will post pictures when available.

Like you I did not know if there was an internal designation of ST in the day. However this supports the fact that some in the factory were calling them ST's at some point during production. Whats your take on this?

Attached are some documents. Note the apparent discrepancy between the two letters. The Barth letter states the car was to be used by the factory. The Spenger letter states the car was sold to an unknown first customer. This is a great thread! Matt
Matt

Matt

[HughH]

Frank has already posted some information on "his" 911 130 0683 safari rallye car so we may as well look at all these three 2.2 rallye "Safari" ST's together.

They were:
911 130 0637; S AA 4826; car #1
911 130 0647; S AA 4825; car #33
911 130 0683; S AA 4827; car #19

Edit may 2009: car #33, S AA 4825 may not be chassis 911 130 0647 even though it has been portrayed as such at a number of auctions in the past 10 years. Brian Long's book and other records show 5 safari cars were constructed, of which 3 were official werks entries and two were practice cars, which were lent to other competitors for the event and that chassis number is not recorded as one of the 5 cars constructed

this is from the Jan B Leuhn site which is selling 911 130 0637.

"For 1971, Porsche restricted their main effort to the African Safari Rally. Three new cars were built specifically for the African event whilst two more were constructed for more traditional events and were mainly used as testing cars.

All retained the standard 180bhp S engine, the Safari cars getting Monte Carlo ratios and suspension raised to its highest level for maximum ground clearance and spring travel. Weighing 980kg (20kg more than before) all three Works-Safari-spec cars encountered problems en route. Porsche's best placed finisher was Zasada in fifth, Waldegaard crashing and Andersson being forced out with broken rear suspension."

happily all three are still around today.

photos of all three together

[HughH]

911 130 0637
werks constructed Coupè "Safari" 2.2
registered S AA 4826
first event 1971 Safari rallye, Åke Andersson/Bo Thorszelius car#1 DNF (suspension)
currently for sale in Germany
pictures:
2 from 1971
2 from now

[HughH]

911 130 0647

Edit May 2009: car #33, S AA 4825 may not be chassis 911 130 0647 even though it has been portrayed as such at a number of auctions in the past 10 years. Brian Long's book and other records show 5 safari cars were constructed, of which 3 were official werks entries and two were practice cars, which were lent to other competitors for the event and that chassis number is not recorded as one of the 5 cars constructed

werks constructed Coupè "Safari" 2.2
registered S AA 4825
first event 1971 Safari rallye Björn Waldegård/Lars Helmer car #33 DNF (crash)
recently restored back to safari livery in USA

subject of a couple of threads on this board (was the blue car sold at Christies a year or so ago)

does anyone else know of significant competition history for this car?

photos
3 at safari
1 while blue
1 at rennsport 2007

[HughH]

Frank has already posted details of this car and pictures from 1971 safari as car 19 and from Buffum period

here are a couple more pics from the 1972 safari where it was car #12 where it was second overall (Sobieslaw Zasada/Marien Bien) and a couple from "downtime" in Germany at that time - i think while owned by Bath - (Frank can you confirm or otherwise?)

[HughH]

Hugh,
I have also heard some refer to the '72's as SR's rather than ST's. When the paint on Chassis no. 911 230 0495 was removed with a plastic media, the letters "ST" were written with a marker pen on the bare metal on both doors and on the chassis in the area of the rear shelf. The car has both original doors with the slots for the pull straps. The letters were written before the primer was sprayed onto the car. I will post pictures when available.

Like you I did not know if there was an internal designation of ST in the day. However this supports the fact that some in the factory were calling them ST's at some point during production. Whats your take on this?

Attached are some documents. Note the apparent discrepancy between the two letters. The Barth letter states the car was to be used by the factory. The Spenger letter states the car was sold to an unknown first customer. This is a great thread! Matt
Matt

Matt

Matt

that is great information abouit the marker pen notations. It would appear that both "ST" and "SR" were internal designations however I am yet to establish whether there was anything more formal. Certainly there were not different Vin numbers to distinguish such cars. However I suspect that there may have been internal "order numbers" or "order codes" that could be used to distinguish such cars.

This was certainly the case with "production cars" including the RS from 1970 onwards.

From that time there was a 6 number code: first 3 the model type (911 for 911) plus 3 separate numbers one for the body type, one for the engine type and one for the transmission type.

the body type ones were
1 T Coupe
2 T Targa
3 E Coupe
4 E Targa
5 S coupe
6 S Targa
7 Carrera Coupe
8 Carrera Targa
the engine ones were
1 T
2 E
3 S
4 Carrera
5 Turbo
and the transmission ones
1 4 Speed
4 5 Speed
5 Sportomatic

so a 911S coupe 5 speed would be 911 534 and a RS would be 911 744.

Taking this a step further if a 911T coupe with an S engine and 5 speed was ordered (if there was ever such an order allowed) would be 911 134.

Then if such a car was given, say, an M491 option it would probably be easily distinguished internally - but not externally unless you had the order sheet or build sheet.

I had read somewhere that the original use of the "ST" designation may have been take advantage of homologation anomalies - with the T a lighter car and the S engine more powerful. That certainly was said to be the case in the late 1960's with some of the rally cars and the T/R's etc. maybe the homologation papers for this period will provide such answers.

your letters show that you cant even really trust what you get in black and white from the factory so a lot of research needs to going into any authentication of a car such as 911 230 0495

[RickS]

Just put together at the factory waiting for its new owner

[HughH]

back to 1970 cars

Not sure about this one.
It was advertised for sale in Europe in 2002 as "only 3 owners from new, all original documentation" for what was a significant price for the time (136,000 euro).

I have not seen any authenticating documentation or anything but the pictures below.
Therefore if it is a "real" ST there is not enough info to tell if it was factory or customer produced.

does anyone on the board know it?

[HughH]

here is another one recently for sale at Jan B. Lühn in Germany

this was their description of it:

1970 Porsche 911 2.3 S/T Chassis No. 911 030 1014

"Specific history of this car: Due to the Porsche built sheets, the specific car has been delivered new as a 911 S/T in early 1970 to the Stuttgart based Porsche dealer Fa. Hahn.
The car has been built to the following specification:

- color code 2626 (condagrün) - Recaro leather seats in black - Antenna to the left - Loudspeakers - Tinted windows - Roll bar - Electrical sliding roof

It is believed that this is the only 911 S/T with a sunroof, thus the name “Sunroof S/T” under which this car is known among Porsche enthusiasts.

The older FIA papers do confirm that the first owner, A. Aarne Wihuri from Finland, privately entered the car at the 1.000 km race at the Nürburgring in May 1970 (probably under the name of Sportwagen Hahn). Later the car remained in Germany and has been owned successively by the company Bühl (1972 - ‘86), by a Mr Arzberger (‘87 - ‘89), by a Mr Klose (‘89 - ‘90), by the company Methusalem, Cologne (‘90 - ‘98) and by Mr Otto Westphal (‘98 - 2006), a well known name in historic racing. "

and "During the restoration a common period feature has been added to the car, the 911 does now have the original, wider wheel arches to the front and rear, in order to house wider wheels."

again this one was the subject of a thread here recently.

[HughH]

information on this car from toad hall racing website http://www.toadhallracing.com/oppenh...e%20911st.html

Porsche 1970 911 ST 911.030.1138
Engine number : 614083
Engine Size 2494 CC
Horsepower 275 @ 8000
Weight 930 Kg -2046 Lbs

History
March 1970 Delivery from the Porsche factory via MAHAG Munich, main Porsche dealer for Bavaria, to Autohaus Krauss, official Porsche dealer in Nuremberg.

Built as one of 20 pure Porsche Factory Lightweight 911 Race Cars

April 1970 Sold new to Mans Braun, Mercedes-Benz dealer in Nuremberg and amateur race driver
1970 / 1971 Participation in various mountain and track races under Hans Braun in Germany: Norisring, Mainz-Finthen Airfield, Robfeld, Niederstetten, Neumarkt - Juraberg

Winter 1971 / 1972 sold via Porsche - Herbst, Nuremberg, to Ludwig Hornauer, businessman in Bamberg and amateur racing driver

1972 / 1973 participation in various mountain and track races under Ludwig Hornauer in Germany: Ellerberg, Stadtsteinach, Giebelstadt, 300 km Nurburgring, Salsburgring GT race later some drag racing against members of US forces in Ramstein, wins on a displacement handicap basis
1974 sold to Manfred Grundmann, car dealer in Gochsheim near Schweinfurt
1977 was registered under the name of Harald Metzner, Bamberg, as it seems only for tax reasons
October 15, 1978 sold to Reinhold Muller, Schweinfurt
March 21, 1979 sold to Karl Schmitt, Sassanfahrt
August 21, 1989 sold to Frans Georg Dopper
1990 - 1992 underwent extensive restoration
1993 - 1999 Extensively raced by Georg Dopper in various U.S. Historic racing events
1999 Sold to Charles Arnott of Easton, Maryland Raced by Arnott at Moroso Speedway, Florida. Engine fully rebuild by Klub Sport, West Palm Beach, Florida.
2000 Entered, accepted and raced in the Targa Florio Historic Race, Sicily, Italy. Set second fastest time in class.
2001 Entered, accepted and raced in the Tour de France (Tour Auto Historic Race). Finished 11th overall, 5th in group and second fastest of all the Porsches. Top placed American entrant.