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Thread: Ultimate ST thread

  1. #581
    Yes they did,some had wide fronts and standard rear also.

  2. #582
    Senior Member
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    I have just received the issue 010 of 000 Magazine and it seems that someone here has helped a lot to write a VERY interesting article

    @Stout
    Great issue as usual, even if I still need the time to read and enjoy.
    Last edited by 928cs; 07-30-2019 at 10:06 PM.

  3. #583
    Senior Member Fubawu's Avatar
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    I'm just reading that issue. Best to date!
    911 1967S 308470
    [B]911 1965 301946 Irish Green
    [B]911 1965 302962 Polo Red
    911 1965 300760 White SOLD
    911 1971S S/T 2.5
    914-6 1970 GT 2.3
    Look for me at a track near you!
    Early S Reg #2699
    https://www.facebook.com/#!/MachineMotorsports

  4. #584
    Senior Member Fubawu's Avatar
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    Found this recently for sale

    This car – with VIN-Nr 911 230 1081 (we will refer to it as #1081) – was delivered by the factory as a Gulf Orange Porsche 911S with “T” race-specification to Max Moritz on 27 March 1973 for delivery to fur trader and racer Claus Utz from Reutlingen.
    After taking delivery of his car, Utz entered the car with much success in the 1972 Group 4 championship with the high-point being the overall win in both the “Nürburgring 36 Hours” race on 14-16/7/1972 as well as the “Hockenheim Grand Prix” on 20/8/1972 !

    Already on January 2nd 1974 Utz sold his winning car to his tax advisor and rally driver Hermann Peter Duge. As the car remained in Reutlingen, the registration plate of RT-AW211 remained unchanged. Duge repainted the car in Grand Prix white and gave the car a “2.8 RSR” look with rear spoiler and blue Carrera side lettering. He kept #1081 for 2 years , put the original engine aside and installed a 2.7 RS engine and participated in 13 German rallies achieving 3 wins and a 4th place in the 1975 German Rally Championship.

    The high point in #1081’s career took place during the ownership of 34 year old rally driver Ludwig Kuhn from Bergzabern (Germany) who bought the car from Duge in October 1975 registered it on its soon-to-be famous plates “GER-LK 81”.

    After having won his 1st “Badener rally” with his new car he then took 2nd in the “Coal & Steel” rally and ended the season with a 4th OA in the Hunsrückrally. In 1976 Kuhn took part in 9 German Rally Championship events and, despite finishing 6th in the final classification, he achieved 5 wins. For the 1977 rally season, #1081 was painted in Conda-green and received sponsorship of “MASSA” and “MATER”. The German championship consisted of 9 rallies and Ludwig Kuhn with co-driver Klaus Hopfe became the 1977 German Rally Champions beating 3 works teams ! Having achieved his ambitions, Kuhn subsequently sold #1081 – still original and without any accident damage – together with all original parts to the brothers Jene, owners of the Karl Vetter firm in Phillipsburg.

    The Jene brothers registered the car with “KA-Y 3113” plates and entered #1081 in several rallies during 1978 and 1979 – again achieving multiple wins – after which they retired the car and only used it sparingly as a “911 SC” in Group B until 1983. In 1985 #1081 was sold – with all its original parts, including the original Group 4 engine and the original Minilite rims to renown Porsche & engine specialist Manfred Rugen who rebuild the original engine and restored the car back to its original “Group 4 works S/T” specification. When done, Rugen then sold the car to German collector Chris Stahl and the 1st appearance of the restored and stunning Gulf Orange S/T #1081 took place on November 8th 2003 when Walter Röhrl and Christian Geistdörffer drove it

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    911 1967S 308470
    [B]911 1965 301946 Irish Green
    [B]911 1965 302962 Polo Red
    911 1965 300760 White SOLD
    911 1971S S/T 2.5
    914-6 1970 GT 2.3
    Look for me at a track near you!
    Early S Reg #2699
    https://www.facebook.com/#!/MachineMotorsports

  5. #585
    [QUOTE=Fubawu;1026690]Found this recently for sale


    After having won his 1st “Badener rally” with his new car he then took 2nd in the “Coal & Steel” rally and ended the season with a 4th OA in the Hunsrückrally. In 1976 Kuhn took part in 9 German Rally Championship events and, despite finishing 6th in the final classification, he achieved 5 wins. For the 1977 rally season, #1081 was painted in Conda-green and received sponsorship of “MASSA” and “MATER”. The German championship consisted of 9 rallies and Ludwig Kuhn with co-driver Klaus Hopfe became the 1977 German Rally Champions beating 3 works teams ! Having achieved his ambitions, Kuhn subsequently sold #1081 – still original and without any accident damage – together with all original parts to the brothers Jene, owners of the Karl Vetter firm in Phillipsburg.




    I would suppose that the history file, as described above, could have been written by the former owner and engine builder, Manfred Rugen.

    The present seller, RMD, did add some "latest history" on his website, where you could read that the Jene brothers stated, they would rebuild the car with a new shell end of the '78-season:

    "the fourth owner(Jene brothers), however, promises that the veteran 911 will no longer be sold: in the winter break, he gets a new body shell donated. The innards will be transplanted and the rally hunt should continue.." (see attachment)

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  6. #586
    Quote Originally Posted by HughH View Post
    Ok here goes

    There have been a lot of great posts on this board about ST’s, some by current owners providing a lot of detail about their cars.

    Also Raj recently provided a great picture on another thread (reproduced here) showing a list of 1972 ST’s including engine numbers in most cases.

    Along with the ST’s were some cars apparently known as SR’s with Group 3 or group 4 modifications? It is not at all clear to me how to differentiate them from ST’s given neither were official designations and there were no specific Vin numbers for either – unlike the RS or R - can anyone help on this aspect?

    I have heard somewhere that the ST’s were from 1969 to 1971 and the E series 1972 cars were mainly “SR’s”. Maybe someone on the board with more detailed knowledge in this area can help clarify whether there is any truth in this.
    I was wondering why the 1972 series was called SR. It is not the first time that I find this nomenclature but it is not clear to me.
    Did you discover anything else with reference to SR Hugh?
    Thank you!

  7. #587
    Senior Member HughH's Avatar
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    On the "SR" all that I can really discern is that that description is/was used to refer to the track oriented cars with M491 option (ie like the later RSR) to distinguish them from the rally oriented cars. Obviously a car could be changed from one specification (and some were) but initially (in 1972 in particular) some were built as rally cars but most as track cars whereas in earlier years (in particular 1970) they were mainly rally oriented.

    I DON'T KNOW if that was ever an official internal description or not but as far as I know it was never one used in public. They all were officially 911S's and then with option descriptions - ie 911S 2.5 M491 or 911S M471 etc.

    I think that it probably has been adopted at later date to distinguish the track oriented cars but would be happy if someone could correct me by providing an official (internal) document from the period, rather than something recent, describing a car as an SR. I have a build sheet with a handwritten T put between the typed "911S" and "coupe" ion the FAHRZEUG-TYP space on the sheet but not anything more definitive that that
    Hugh Hodges
    73 911E
    Melbourne Australia

    Foundation Member #005
    Australian TYP901 Register Inc.

    Early S Registry #776

  8. #588
    Quote Originally Posted by HughH View Post
    On the "SR" all that I can really discern is that that description is/was used to refer to the track oriented cars with M491 option (ie like the later RSR) to distinguish them from the rally oriented cars. Obviously a car could be changed from one specification (and some were) but initially (in 1972 in particular) some were built as rally cars but most as track cars whereas in earlier years (in particular 1970) they were mainly rally oriented.

    I DON'T KNOW if that was ever an official internal description or not but as far as I know it was never one used in public. They all were officially 911S's and then with option descriptions - ie 911S 2.5 M491 or 911S M471 etc.

    I think that it probably has been adopted at later date to distinguish the track oriented cars but would be happy if someone could correct me by providing an official (internal) document from the period, rather than something recent, describing a car as an SR. I have a build sheet with a handwritten T put between the typed "911S" and "coupe" ion the FAHRZEUG-TYP space on the sheet but not anything more definitive that that
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    Thank you very much for that information Hugh! For me this car would resemble an SR? I don't know why I think the front parts of this car are made of fiber. The distinction of ST and SR cannot be obtained I suppose but for example in the document of the "sports" department you have the preparations for Rally and the track ones. I understand that as you say, the difference from ST to SR lies in those options!




  9. #589
    Senior Member HughH's Avatar
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    that one (9110301127) is a special one off - it began life as a 1970 rally ST for the factory at the 1970 Austrian Alpine rally but was rebuilt at the factory later as a one off "ultra lightweight" car for the 1970 Tour de France.
    It did have "plastic" fenders and front bumper (as some other 1970 ST's had) as well as a glassfibre front bonnet and glassfibre 911R type doors so was no where near what its original homologated "ST" specification was.
    Hugh Hodges
    73 911E
    Melbourne Australia

    Foundation Member #005
    Australian TYP901 Register Inc.

    Early S Registry #776

  10. #590
    Quote Originally Posted by HughH View Post
    that one (9110301127) is a special one off - it began life as a 1970 rally ST for the factory at the 1970 Austrian Alpine rally but was rebuilt at the factory later as a one off "ultra lightweight" car for the 1970 Tour de France.
    It did have "plastic" fenders and front bumper (as some other 1970 ST's had) as well as a glassfibre front bonnet and glassfibre 911R type doors so was no where near what its original homologated "ST" specification was.
    I didn't have much idea about this preparation! Is there a post that talks about this transformation you comment? I see that in the poster it appears as S, I suppose that in that competition they would look for that! To appear as such. To be sure Huhg. When you say "plastic" ... do you mean fiber? Do you know if it was practiced in any similar model?
    -thank you very much for the information Hugh, as always

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