Ultimate ST thread

[HughH]

time to start on some 1971 cars

This is an unusual one and one that highlights the complexity and difficulty of creating a list of "real ST's". All I know about it is here and from an ad when being sold a a little while ago. Some board members might know some more about the car.

Definitely not a factory car. This is claimed to be a Kremer built one - as they did for most of the cars they ran - but if the story is correct it is as much an ST as any other one. One interesting thing is it was not built from an S like the factory cars. However the car is billed as a 71 and it says that it was built from a T but the chassis number says otherwise. It is for a 71 E - probably not the car I would have thought they would have started from.

this is from the ad
" PORSCHE KREMER 911 ST 2.5 (1971),Vin # 911 120 0497. Built by the Kremer Bros. in 1971/72.

The car was built on a normal 911 T road car. Kremer ordered the 911 ST kit from Porsche direct. This was possible in this days.

Manfred Kremer built up the 911 S 2.5 liter on the 911T crankcase. Car comes with new FIA paperwork. Original engine is not anymore in the car.It now has a 3.0 Carrera engine with 210 hp. Car can be delivered in the original PORSCHE-KREMER livery. Weight: 960 kg.

In the hands of Erwin Kremer, Paul Keller,Willi Kauhsen, Baron von Wendt and Clemens Schickentanz the car takes part in the European GT Championship in 1971 and 1972. Car was in a private collection in Germany from 1973 till 2002 and was not raced.

Ìn the most recent years the car was driven in such venues as: Tour de France Auto, Tour de Espagna (Tour of Spain), Tropheo Baleares( Mallorca Spain), Oldtimer Grand Prix Nürburgring, Hockenheim 500 Kilometer Rennen, Rally San Remo Historico, Rally Monte Carlo Historique. This car is street legal in the USA."

Does it fit on this list or not?
comments.............?

Gib you may be interested in the under the front bonnet shot - what is there.......... and what is not .

[HughH]

this is a werks one, and one with a great history
chassis #911 130 0565
original registration SZ-7941
engine #6310962
engine Type 2.2S 911/02 but 2380 cc barrels and pistons

it is easiest to use the material John Starkey had when he had it for sale in 2007. Nick Moss also has a lot of material on its restoration at his site here http://www.early911.co.uk/historic/html/1971_st.html

"We are pleased to offer today an incredibly rare "Works"-entered Porsche 911S/T. Entered for Bjorn Waldegard in 1971 in the World Rally Championship with the following results:

History of 911S/T Reg. SZ-7941 Chassis Number 911 130 0565. Color Orange

1971 Rally Sweden: Driver - Bjorn Waldegard; finished 4th.
1971 Rally GB RAC: Driver - Bjorn Waldegard; finished 2nd.

In 1972, 0565 was used to do the ice pace notes on the Monte Carlo Rally with drivers Jurgen Barth and Stig Blomqvist.

In April 1972 it was imported to England, it then had five owners (the present owner has copies of the logbooks); he bought the car in 2000 and restored it completely.

Spec:
The engine is a 2.2S 911/02 type engine number 6310962 with 2380 cc barrels and pistons and single spark ignition set up. SS heat exchangers and competition silencer, 202 horsepower.

Gearbox:
Push clutch 911 type with ZF LSD with short gearing. There is also a spare with long gearing.
Wheels:
2 x 7-15 Minilites
2 x 8-15 Minilites
2 x 9-15 Minilites
3 x 7-15 Fuchs 7R type

Brakes:
Alloy calipers front, steel calipers rear.

Fuel tank:
Center fill 100 liter.

Oil cooler and pipes as original 2.2S.

Suspension:
Bilstein back and front.

The body shell is all steel except the engine lid and number plate panel, which are aluminum.

The front and rear wings are genuine ST.

There are four Pallas spotlights two on the wings and two on the bonnet.

The seats are genuine ST, they were recovered with material from Porsche.

Four point rollcage with original fixings.

It has a metal case Halda with Heuer clock and stopwatch.

The car was restored with information and photos supplied by Porsche and these are included in the sale package"

Photos
1971 Rally Sweden car #3 (b&w)
1971 Rally GB RAC x2 again car #3
current x2

[John Starkey]

Hello Hugh.

Excellent thread!

The Brumos car was originally an "Austrian" S/T rally car, delivered to Porsche Salzburg, Austria. See below for full history:

John Starkey

Chassis No: 911 030 1263
1970 911 S/T.
Engine type: 911/02
Gearbox type: 901.
Weight: 980 Kg.
Delivered: 12/69
Color: Blood orange.
PH-Salzburg.
Rallied

1970
22-30/05: Semperit rally: DNF. (Acc.)
29/07-01: Donau-Poland rally: 1st.

1971: Sold to Peter Gregg, Brumos. USA.
04/12: Texas: Gregg/Haywood, #59; 2nd/1st in class.

1972:
09/07: Mid-Ohio: Haywood/S. Posey, #59; 2nd/2nd.
05/08: Talladega: Haywood, #59; 6th/1st.
10/09: Watkins Glen: Gregg/Haywood, #59; 1st/1st.
24/09: Bryar: Gregg, #59; DNF.
19/11: Daytona: Gregg, #59; DNF.

1972 IMSA Championship winner with Hurley Haywood.

1973: Feb: Sold to George Dyer.
??/3: Riverside SCCA: Dyer; 1st.
Rebuilt by Dennis Aase, CA.
04/7: Daytona: Dyer; 44th NR.
15/7: Mid-Ohio: Dyer, #30; 25th.

Sold to Paul Spruell.

1974:
21/4: Road Atlanta: P. Spruell,/B. Bean, #6; 22nd/4th.
04/7: Daytona: P. Spruell/B. Bean, #16; 2nd.
1/12: Daytona: P. Spruell, #19; 20th/7th.

1975:
1-2/2: Daytona 24-Hours: P.Spruell/B. Bean, #38; 48th NR.
21/3: Sebring 12-Hours:

1976:
31/1-1/2: Daytona 24-Hours: B. Bean, #31; 65th NR.
04/7: Daytona: J. Ansley/Bean, #22; 26th.

End of 1976: Sold to Terry Wolters from Paul Spruell.

1977:
19/3: Sebring 12-Hours: T. Wolters/L.P. Pleasant, #08; 33rd.
15/5: Mid-America: T. Wolters, #08; 14th/6th.
04/7: Daytona: T. Wolters, #08; 22nd/8th.
27/11: Daytona: T. Wolters/J. Swanson, #98; 15th/5th.

1978:
4-5/2: Daytona 24-Hours: T. Wolters/R. Mummery/J. Refenning, #08; 14th/3rd.
18/3: Sebring 12-Hours: T. Wolters/W. Miller, #08; 35th/17th.
26/11: Daytona: T. Wolters/W. Miller, #08; 54th NR.

1979:
3-4/2: Daytona 24-Hours: T. Wolters/N. Northam/ R.Weiss, #08; 21st/9th.
17/3: Sebring 12-Hours: T. Wolters/B. Buchler/N. Northam, #08; 21st/5th.
04/7: Daytona: T. Wolters/N. Northam, #08; 34th NR.
25/11: Daytona: T. Wolters/M.L. Speer, #08; 31st/9th.

1980: Rear section removed, tube framed. Ran in B Production.
2-3/2: Daytona 24-Hours: T. Wolters/M.L. Speer/ R. Ratcliff,#08; 18th/6th.
22/3: Sebring 12-Hours: T. Wolters/M.L. Speer/R. Ratcliff, #08; 35th NR.
04/7: Daytona: T. Wolters/R. Tilton, #08; 24th/8th.
30/11: Daytona: R. Ratcliff /M.L. Speer, #08; 22nd/6th.

1981:
2.7 liter engine fitted, raced in SCCA “B” production by T. Wolters. 2nd in the S.E. Division.

1982: Sold to Michael Schafer. Jack Refenning-901 shop in Pompano-Now in . 561 781 2944. 2.8 liters.
1982:
29/01: Daytona 24 Hours: A. Howes/P. Nacthway/O. Jones, #08; DNF.
10/01: Sebring SCCA: Schafer; DNF. (front seal).
16/01: PBIR: Schafer; DNF. (Engine).
24/04: PBIR: Schafer; DNF. (flywheel).
29/05: Roebling Road: Schafer; RU.
12/6: Sebring: Schafer; RU.
16/10: Sebring: Schafer; RU.

1983:
05-06/02: Daytona 24-Hours: M. Schaeffer/Zitza/Reffening, #90; 14thOA/2nd in GTU class.
01/5: Moroso T.A.: Schafer; RU.
29/5: Roebling Road: Schafer; RU.

1984:
04-05/2: Daytona 24-Hours: M. Schafer/N. Nicholson/J. Andretti/J. Refenning, #90;43rd NR. (Eng.)

12/05: Moroso: Schafer; RU.

17/05: Sold to Drew Slayton. Tube framed front and rear by Dave Klym.
19/05: Sebring: Schafer; RU.
14/08: Daytona: Schafer; RU.
25/08: CMS Drivers school: Slayton.

1986:
21/6: Atlanta: Slayton; RU.
19/7: Charlotte: Slayton; RU.
30/8: Atlanta: Slayton; RU.
05/9: Atlanta: Slayton; RU.

1990: Sold to the Collier Collection.
?: Sold to Lothar Hoess.
1994: Restored by Jim Weber.
Sold to Phil Bagley.
2001: Sold to Brumos Collection.

[gms]

Ginther Le Mans car
For Sale

[HughH]

Hi John

I appreciate you sharing your knowledge on this

thanks for providing the information on 911 030 1263. I have gone back and edited my post on the car and referenced it across to your post as well as adding the main detail

Hopefully we can do that for some others to create a really comprehensive list using the diverse contacts and knowledge of this board

[Harvey Weidman]

An update: the Ginther ST was restored to race day livery for RRIII.

[HughH]

Glen

Just in case the words in that for sale link are lost here is some of the background of the car (originally, I think, from a Bruce Anderson Excellence magazine article ) from the time it was with Dave Morse.
(I see some of this was picked up in the ad you linked to and also in the Canepa design website where I think it was really for sale)

"The significance of Dave Morse’s 911ST was that it was the first of what became a number of Porsches that were purchased by Americans prepared and then taken back to Europe to race, mostly at Le Mans. Richie Ginther Racing's All American was an entry at Le Mans in 1971 with Alan Johnson and Elliott Forbes-Robinson as their drivers. Ginther called his 911 ST Sloopy Jr. and Sloop ran with a 2.4 engine configuration in the 1971 Le Mans race. Ginther was a master at getting a little more out of production Porsches because he had been preparing 911s and 914s for SCCA racing here in the US for a few years before their 1971 Le Mans effort. As a result he had some tricks for the 911 that they hadn’t seen in production based race cars Europe before.

Ginther replaced the rubber suspension bushings with Teflon suspension bushings of their own manufacture which offered more precise suspension alignment. They also used stiffer torsion bars which improved the cars handling. Harold Broughton who did the engines for Ginther prepared the engine for their Le Mans effort. Their efforts paid off for they were the fastest qualifier in the Group 4 GT class and the fastest of 20 GT Porsches entered.

While this cars Le Mans debut was not auspicious because the car went out with a broken connecting rod in the eighth hour of the race because of an oil line problem early in the race, it was significant because it was the start of a trend that many American teams were to follow.

The Ginther 911ST was sold to Bill Yates, a California Porsche dealer who competed with the car in Porsche club events and continued through the years to modify the car to keep it competitive. Fortunately as the car was modified over the years Bill Yates kept all of the original parts, so that when Dave Morse purchased the car from Yates in 1993 it made it much easier for the Morspeed crew to restore the car to its original configuration.

Morspeed did the engine and transmission for Dave Morse’s 911 ST. In fact the engine was assembled in one of our engine overhaul classes that we hold at Jerry Woods Enterprises.

Dave Morse and Ron Gruener and the rest of the Morspeed crew extensively researched the car and then performed the comprehensive restoration that was completed just in time for the 1997 Monterey Pre-Historics. The car tested well at the Pre-Historics and a week later it became the first 911 to participate in the Monterey Historics. "

This car was also the subject of a couple of threads here as it was being freshened up prior to RRIII and Harvey has just posted pics of that as well.

A coupe of historical pics are attached (there are lots of current ones on the board)

the first one is a rare one at the Le Mans TEST in April 1971 where it was car #42 not the well recognized car # 34.

[HughH]

911 130 0721 was sold by autofarm a few years ago

this is from the information they posted at the time

"Chassis No. 911 130 0721
Engine Size 2466
Colour Light Ivory
Interior M471 Sport
• Completed Coppa Intereuropa at Monza 1000kms 1971, 17th overall Targa Florio 1972, 12th overall and 1st Special GT, Targa Florio 1973 as well as many other period events from 1971-75
• Short-stroke 2.5 litre engine to the full 275bhp Type 911/73 1972 race spec with high butterfly mechanical injection (hardly run in!)
• Factory supplied in early 1971 to full Group 4 M491 Race spec'
• Finely and completely restored from 1991-3 with only limited mileage since. Maintained by us irrespective of cost
• Comes with 8J and 10J x 15" Minilite wheels + new Historic Race tyres, 10,000 Tacho + all other correct period suspension, fuel system, interior, electrics etc,.
• FIA papers. Ideal for top flight international Historic motorsport
• Huge history files


photos
1 current (when sold)
rest are period

[HughH]

an extra photo or two
at the targa in 1972
and the engine compartment when it was being sold

[gms]

Not trying to pass judgement,but at some point when the official listing is 911S.The criteria is very nebulous for ST designation.I have never seen a 911ST designation on a period list,never a official factory order sheet for M491 so for those who state the claim of a M491 in 70,71,72-please provide a period document .Please look at ginther's cars performance vs other cars entered in 70.71,and 72.Please let me know how you define a S that was modified vs a factory customer car vs a works car.

Raj

Hello Raj,
Since you asked...

You make a good point, a point that I have debated for years about the 914/6R (914/6 GT).
First it is important to understand the culture at Porsche and the Homologation rules of the FIA back in the 1970’s, other factors involve Porsche Dealers and Tuners of the era.

It is fact (as you point out) that Porsche prepared 911s for racing in the Grand-Tourisme classification of the FIA, cars were prepared for both factory supported teams and customers. However the goal of Porsche was more oriented towards selling cars and winning races. In the case of the 911 and the 914/6 (under FIA rules) 500 examples must be completed before the model was accepted as GT legal. Porsche produced cars with light-weight parts as well as engine and transmission enhancements as a blueprint for competitors, then an instruction manual and parts book were issued to allow customers to build the car to the level of competitiveness they desired or in some cases what they could afford. As a customer oriented company they provided cars with varying levels of competitive readiness, i.e. M-471, M-491 packages.

In the case of the Richie Ginther’s 1971 Le Mans 911S, I cannot provide factory documentation illustrating the level of finish this car was delivered with but I can tell you that in 1970 Porsche enlisted his expertise to engineer a competitive C-Production solution for the Sport Car Club of America (SCCA) in the form of the 914/6 Ginther Roadster. I can also provide (as example) the names of dealers/tuners such as Max Moritz, Brumos, MAHAG and Kremer as those who bought samples of the full race prepared cars and duplicated or in some cases enhanced the original design.

I have created four categories of classification (in my opinion):
1) Factory prepared cars for factory use.
2) Factory prepared cars for customer use.
3) Dealer/Tuner prepared cars
4) Customer prepared cars for racing purpose.

Category three and four requires 1970s era race history and photographic documentation.

My last point is that factory built is not the only factor to consider when listing these cars, I would consider a customer built car with a successful race history more desirable than a factory built car without race history.

Please look at ginther's car result vs other 911S results and then lets talk turkey.

Ginther car DNF, motor went out in the 8th hour