German market 1970S predated 73RS concept ?

[HughH]

are they "dunlop racing" tires some of these cars are wearing?? further evidence of a competition intent???

see in pic I posted and the first outside pic posted

[70SATMan]

Like the 68T/R is to Tilton, so is this 70LW to me. I've been in absolute LOVE with this car since I first read of it.

Thought I'd repost this pic of the alum front bumper that is probably on this car:

[911T1971]

Here is test - april 1970
text:
"The 911S costs 28749 Mark. Nacked, notice. As for options on the
test car with radio, electr. windows and other expensive details other parts of the population can buy a whole VW Beetle."



"..in its standard version the hot prepared 911S can receive a special option
- as tested by us - with the chassis similar of a 911E.
Instead of stripped down and lightweigth chassis with 110l tank and center fill-in our test car had comfortable velours, complete instruments and chrome trim.
The tank holds 62litre."



Here is the german 70 pricelist stating DM 28749 for standard version of 911S.
All S options had to be payed extra.



Finally, the german 911S test car, loaded with M470 options (similar to a E as they state) in the test. Unfortunately, they do not show the standard (lightweigth) version in a photo.

[csbush]

I have a German Market 1970 911S. From what I can tell it was essentially the same as the US version- aluminum rear grill and center panel, and front oil cooler. No other aluminum parts, and fully optioned with driving lights, fog ligts, rear wiper, standard S interior, sport seats etc. I am not the best source though as my car was pretty heavily modified by the time I got it. Much of the above info is from the certificate of Authenticity.

I assume that you could order most anything that you wanted, but the German S wasn't that different from the US version and perhaps there were some predated 73RS concept versions, but that would have been unusual.

[911T1971]

Chuck, I assume in 1970 you could by a german market 911S in three versions:

1) 911S homologation "sports purpose", lw, GT4, (base for S/T ?)
2) 911S standard version, street legal lw, 180hp, Recaro buckets, 110l tank etc. Price: 28749 DM.
3) 911S w options i.e M470 included, chrome trim, 180hp, regular seats, 62litre tank, radio etc. Price: 28749DM plus options.

Most customers would opt for version 3 and all export US/RoW 911S would have been produced in version 3.

However,
Raj is correct that we yet have to find pictural proof they actually built version 2.
At least the 1970 price list and test info from april 1970 states indeed it was available on the german market.

[Flunder]

Hello Karim:

I think that category 1 and 2 as set out in your post were the same spec.

Tom

[Flieger]

So, the 1970 German market 1970 911S would be the first 911"ST"- acknowledging the fact that "911ST" was probably not an official designation, more like factory shorthand. This would be the "narrow body" raced before the more famous flares developed in 1971/1972 and after the short wheelbase 911R, 911TR, 911L in Trans-Am, etc.

Is this correct?

[Flunder]

Hello Flieger:

I think the type 911S lightweight would have been the perfect car for Group 3 racing.

However, in 1970 and 1971, for the FIA's Special GT Group 4 category, the MY 70 German market base 911S should be considered as perhaps no more than a good beginning point to use "all special parts for the car type 911S to be reconstructed to a competition car."

But, as the reconstruction with all those special parts was a very extensive process, almost any 911 was a suitable basis for the conversion, as demonstrated by the Kremer brothers who used T chassis for their very successful 2,3 and 2,5 cars in 1970-72.

Perhaps we should think of the MY70 lightweight 911S as being analogous to the 2,7 RS H. It was the basis for the race department to get the FIA to allow a minimum weight for the homologation of type.

Tom

[Flieger]

So, the German market 911S was the homologation weight for the 911S for GT racing across Europe. Would someone be kind enough to post the homologation weights for the 911T and 911S for 1970/1971? If I recall correctly, the 911T was homologated lighter. If Porsche went this far in weight reduction on the 911S, why not go below the 911T?

I suppose what you are telling me is that the superior "S" equipment such as sway bars, wheels/tires, Aluminum engine lid, nitrided connecting rods (?), balanced crankshaft, etc. is what made the 911S heavier than the 911T when in equally sparce interior trim. These "S" pieces would be replaced on either car by even better "competition" spec parts. Therefore, homologating a 911T lighter just allowed more weight reduction elsewhere (by removing interior entirely) for competition to compensate for the upgraded running gear. Hence, 911"S/T"

The lightweight thin steel tubs produced in 1969 would be for model year 1970? Were the chassis numbers known? Did these stay with factory race department? Were they 911Ts or 911S?

Thanks to you (all) for taking time to answer my questions; I am young but interested in learning more details about these amazing cars. I would certainly be interested in any books you knowledgeable individuals chose to write- the RSR thread, 911ST thread, and this thread would be great subjects.

[Flunder]

Raj:

I believe that the 62L tanks used in the homologation 911S are the same as the one posted by Gilbert911. However, that 62L race tank is the only example I have ever seen!

I suppose that for sprint races, as opposed to endurance events or rallying where long range becomes an issue, the 62L would be a superior spec given that it does provide a lower center of gravity, as you rightly point out. It may offer the advantage of less fuel sloshing from side to side as well.