German market 1970S predated 73RS concept ?

[LongRanger]

. . . One of our fellow board members based in Germany has just such a "standard" 70S origonally sold . . .

My car is a '70 'S,' originally delivered in Germany. Its Kardex shows --- as the very first option = 470 . . . 'comfort group.' See post #493 . . .
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...ty-nine/page50


I've also wondered about this car's 'Typ' . . . = 911534

I've seen Porsche break-down their engines by 'type' . . . but not their cars, so much

Which begs the question . . .


Could a 'base' Euro 911 'S' --- or any 'competition-equipped' vehicle . . . have a distinct Typ?

Type designators might even indicate a particular market or country?


Love to see/hear about any Kardex from '. . . One of our fellow board members based in Germany . . .'

[Flunder]

Tom

That is great thanks for sharing, it would make sense to order and convert for a race team but was any car ever sold as street legal ? would it pass DOT equivalents TUV etc....Tom how were these cars confirmed with kardex? or were they in original condition.......?

raj

I have seen the kardex on a couple of these but they do not shed any light on the original specification and chassis numbers are within the range of published series with all the other S cars.

However, an inspection of the tub will provide the evidence of lightweight specification. These cars were definitely street legal in Germany and perhaps some other European countries. They were made in small numbers but no actual production details are available from what I have heard. The factory is now pretty much completely uninformed when it comes to these rare birds.

[HughH]

Rick
as Raj says that it the internal ORDER NUMBER for the type of car (in the 1970 MY and on to at least 73 way of ordering at Porsche)
the 911 is obvious
the next number is the body number as below
the following one is the engine type number
and the last one the gearbox type number

body	engine	Gearbox
1 T Coupe	1 T	1 4 Speed
2 T Targa	2 E	4 5 Speed
3 E Coupe	3 S	5 Sportomatic
4 E Targa	4 Carrera
5 S coupe	5 Turbo
6 S Targa
7 Carrera Coupe
8 Carrera Targa

so 911 5 3 4 is a 911 S coupe with a S engine and the 5 speed gearbox

[LongRanger]

Excellent!

Thanks for that, Hugh . . .

[911T1971]

isn't it in fact a cat and mouse game with the FIA.After not being allowed in the touring car race by not allowing the 911 to be qualified as a sedan.Thus some exercise by the factory during this period late 60s to early 70s from four door sedan and then homologating the 911 without the interior as the base car and interior as an option then the whole fiasco with recaro sports seats and rear bolster...........all well documented to keep the 911 competitive in as many racing series as possible.The question is other than as a homologation exercise and to make FIA happy like the 917's that were not all built,it is entirely possible no such car ever left the factory with such a spec since none was ever ordered or allowed to be ordered as such.
All of this very well documented in ludvigsens book if I remember correctly.

Luvigsens writes, that the FIA did not accept the factory's attempt to have its 1970 911S homologated (1000 cars need to be built) for GT Group 2 racing, as the 911T was in 67/68.
In 1971, the factory tryed again with its 911S (now with extended rear seat bolsters to have it as a four-seater sedan) but it didnt't pass FIA rules either. The program was then abandoned.

Instead, the factory prepared the 911S to be homologated for GT 4 Group racing. (Ludvigsen writes 1971 but the description of this lightwheight 911S matches exactly the 1970S base/standard version).
So, how many got/needed to be built for homologation GT4 1970 ?

[HughH]

Karim
for "Special GT" ie Group 4 you needed 500 cars for homologation

[911T1971]

thx Hugh. so they got accepted ? They built 500, (thats seems a lot) ?
I'm no specialist.

I got the 7 Id of 1970 S/R's:

"Fahrzeugtyp 911 S/R 2.3 "Rallye" (1970)
Ausgangsmodell 911 S 2.2 (2.195 ccm, 180 PS)
Abfolge der Fahrzeug-Identifikationsnummern (FINs) 911 030 0001; 911 030 0002; 911 030 0003; 911 030 0102; 911 030 0949; 911 030 0950; 911 030 1127"
source:http://www.1-vision-weiss.de/lesepro...ht-den-anfang/

Fröhlich's 911S at 31.5.1970, Le Mans

[HughH]

the 1970 S was homologated to Group 3 (GT) (1000 units) in March 1970. Group 4 (special GT) would have been before that.
The real question is WHAT was homologated - ie what were the specs for Group 3 and Group 4
the Gp 3 homologation papers are FIA No 3025 and the car is homologated at 960kg with what looks like fuel oil and spare tyre included
i am not sure but i think that would line up with the 930kg quoted for the "standard 911S " in the french Brochure, the other cars are all 1020kg

On top of that the honlogation papers specify a whole lot of special parts for Gp4 (ie the ST's) lightmetal things, plastic things, wheel arch extentions, plastic 85 and 110 litre fuel tanks plexiglass windows - etc
so it looks like they had the 1000 accepted for Gp3 and then this "stripper car" formed the basis of the ST weight as well


....... so MOST of the 1744 1970 S's would have been counted to get group 3 recognition..... that means that it is not clear how many actual "standard" cars were built if any 911S semes to be able to be counted???

[Stevie]

So, the German market 911S was the homologation weight for the 911S for GT racing across Europe. Would someone be kind enough to post the homologation weights for the 911T and 911S for 1970/1971? If I recall correctly, the 911T was homologated lighter. If Porsche went this far in weight reduction on the 911S, why not go below the 911T?

I suppose what you are telling me is that the superior "S" equipment such as sway bars, wheels/tires, Aluminum engine lid, nitrided connecting rods (?), balanced crankshaft, etc. is what made the 911S heavier than the 911T when in equally sparce interior trim. These "S" pieces would be replaced on either car by even better "competition" spec parts. Therefore, homologating a 911T lighter just allowed more weight reduction elsewhere (by removing interior entirely) for competition to compensate for the upgraded running gear. Hence, 911"S/T"

The lightweight thin steel tubs produced in 1969 would be for model year 1970? Were the chassis numbers known? Did these stay with factory race department? Were they 911Ts or 911S?

Thanks to you (all) for taking time to answer my questions; I am young but interested in learning more details about these amazing cars. I would certainly be interested in any books you knowledgeable individuals chose to write- the RSR thread, 911ST thread, and this thread would be great subjects.

This thread pops up now and then when I search for stuff, and this car always intrigues me. At first I thought it looked really nice and friendly in light blue with its yellow nose. And the location of Brucke Breidscheid on the Nordschleife looked too familiar as I've got a few footsteps there. And tiremarks. Started looking for a high res. Car 104 in GT's during the 1969 1000km rennen was Hans-Dieter Weigel. Now that name sounded familiar too, but previously I just associated him with 907s and 908s and 917s.

Then I found this about the car: http://www.racingsportscars.com/chas...Weigel%23.html
Seems started at 1000km of Monza, the Targa Florio and 1000km Nurburgring all within six weeks? Interesting Listed a #84 at Targa....

A bit later I found these. Obviously not mine, found them on www.targapedia.com





Hmm, so much for that cute yellow nose. Scratch that, make it works Gulf livery. Me stupid! Looking back at the previously posted Nurburgring photo you can actually see the black roundels of the Targa numbers under the 104 square numbers.

Has the car ever surfaced after '69? The car is listed in every log I could find as a 911T. Must be a pretty trick T The oldest photo I've found is May 1969, but she's listed as also running Monza in April 1969. And what's she doing in the 1970S Leichtbau thread. Does she deserve a thread of her own? Has some DNF's but a very interesting and pretty intensive season!

[nickR]

I came across this intriguing article on Pistonheads from 2012 on the discovery of one of these lightweight Sport S cars by Josh Sadler of Autofarm. Being right hand drive we can safely say they were made for the UK market. Too bad there are no photos of the interior. It will be great to see the car once it's restored.

Here's the article and pictures for future reference as well as the link to the whole article.

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/defa...ryId=26193.htm

A Barn Find to Die For

It's not the highly polished, hermetically sealed machines that has sees Josh really animated though. Instead, what to the untrained eye looks like nothing more than an old, in need of restoration 911 is Josh's next project. It's a car he sold in the 80s, knowing then that it was a bit special, but not having taken the time to research it properly. Curiosity got the better of Josh a few years ago and he sought out the sales document and found the seller and the car was found languishing at the bottom of the garden under a tarpaulin.

Still unsure exactly what it was, Josh "took a punt," getting it out requiring the removal of a fence. It was worth the effort. The pared back trim, the lightweight door panels, lightweight carpets and tacho that reads up to 10,000rpm, along with some further research revealed it to be a 911 S Sport, sometimes referred to as an ST.

Josh's find is a car with provenance, too, having driven in the 1971 Circuit of Ireland, it is thought to be the only ST officially brought into the country. It arrived via a Northern Irish dealer and was driven by Reggie McSpadden. Some digging found its registration to be dormant, and the car was driven over to Northern Ireland to be inspected, where it was given it original registration back. It's been stripped since and awaits restoration, though with other projects are keeping him busy enough.

A garden find 911, now nestling in a barn owned by a man who farms Porsches? You couldn't make it up. And that RSR recreation? We'll take that one next time...