Market Values

[vipergruen]

I think that germany has a lower tax than other EU countries on classic cars from non-EU countries. I know a couple of guys that imported cars via Germany, i.e registred there for one day and then imported in Italy as EU-cars . Over here there's a 10% import duty and 20% VAT on the sum of declared purchase price, transportation costs and import duty

With the dollar around 1.5 it's convininent for us to purchase cars in the US, but, at least in Italy, many collectors only consider the US as a good source for projects or unrestored cars, as the average US-restoration is not very well regarded. I think that Eu dealers are different, they obviously buy only if they see a profit potential; many german ones are selling US-delivered cars as their ususal supply markets (mainly Italy) are either drying up or converging to their higher prices. Taking in account their very high restoration costs compared to other countries, they usually are in the market for the best cars.

This is just IMO, very difficult to generalize on this matter.

Andrea

[67Porsche911S]

It might be a matter of age in some ways. For me, growing up with hot hatches etc. in the late '70 the 356 was already an 'oldtimer' when I got my driving licence, for me nice to look at but always a sort of tweaked beetle. 911 was the unreachable dream in those days. For me the design of the 911, particularly the clean lines of the SWB with no flares or spoilers, is much more appealing compared to the 'cramped' look of the 356. Soon the 911 will be for 50 years (!) in production and still going strong, covering more than one generation of sports car enthusiasts, the 356 is a distant echo from the past for me. What a fantastic and broad variety of types have we seen since 1963. In the long run the 911 will be of much more importance than the 356. I just bought a 911 which was described by Walter Rohrl in those days as 'the most dangerous car in the world', a 1980 Turbo. This was much more appealing to me than a wonderful looking 60hp 356 - Please, this is pure subjective and my personal view, I don't want to offend any 356 owner, they are wonderful cars of course!

There is a lot of cars going to Europe at the moment. I picked up a car the other day at the port and the warehouses are full of old cars. While I was waiting every 10 Minutes another truck with a container arrives, very busy. Import taxes are no issue any more, if you know how to import a classic car into Europe properly.

[EARLY911ZOO]

quoting Vipergruen " as the average US-restoration is not very well regarded"

hmmmm....
this statement is one I find hard to digest. After seeing the many talented members on here strive to do proper and correct work, couple that with the high standard shops who are doing quality restos nowadays, I think this view is due to other factors, NOT lesser workmanship available.

I am sure there are below standard restorations in EU as well, being that the cars may be more used and rusty than say a California car.We just have more of their cars here than anywhere else so more of that variety.
Consider that in the 80's and 90's it wasnt restoration but embellishments, modifications, tributes, a lot of fiberglass ect...these were done as economically as possible. These cars were not viewed as collectables/investments.

Its been a new game and I see serious considerations in getting the cars done right.

[Leon Todaro]

Just sold my 1971E Targa at a VERY reasonable price to a gentleman in Austria. Had very few bites stateside. Mostly lowball offers or trades.

[vipergruen]

Richard, I 100% agree with you, just wanted to say that in Italy there are a lot of cars restored in the past in the US (not only Porsches) that, as you say, were just "embellished" with a lot of filler. This didn't help the reputation of US-restored cars, and italian collectors usually prefer to buy unrestored cars and follow the restoration process personally.

Regards,
Andrea

[sithot]

There are so few "decent" 356 cars out there that the good ones will always bring the money. A fair car will trade in "fair territory". I buddy of mine sold an SC last year for all he had in it. Break even proposition. It still needed the body done although it wasn't rusty. I think $30K was the number which included the new owner paying off the engine builder. Another $20-$30K budget restoration and it could be shown.

For one, these are very boring cars to drive unless they've had some horsepower injected and the suspension brought up to snuff. If you want to "toodle around" they're fine. IMHO there are better cars to "toodle" in for a lot less money.

The 3 main bearing engine doesn't like much beyond about 150hp so install a Type IV and pickle the original. A Type IV is hard to hurt and can make a lot of horsepower for reasonable money and also have a decent life expectancy.

FWIW; I'd take an Outlaw (especially an Emory) over a stocker all day-any day.


Tom

[gsjohnson]

There are so few "decent" 356 cars out there that the good ones will always bring the money. A fair car will trade in "fair territory". I buddy of mine sold an SC last year for all he had in it. Break even proposition. It still needed the body done although it wasn't rusty. I think $30K was the number which included the new owner paying off the engine builder. Another $20-$30K budget restoration and it could be shown.

For one, these are very boring cars to drive unless they've had some horsepower injected and the suspension brought up to snuff. If you want to "toodle around" they're fine. IMHO there are better cars to "toodle" in for a lot less money.

The 3 main bearing engine doesn't like much beyond about 150hp so install a Type IV and pickle the original. A Type IV is hard to hurt and can make a lot of horsepower for reasonable money and also have a decent life expectancy.

FWIW; I'd take an Outlaw (especially an Emory) over a stocker all day-any day.


Tom

Well stated. I had a 1955 Speedster back in 1975 and that thing was a dog (even back then). Great summer cruiser with the top down, but absolutely no thrills. I installed a big bore 912 motor, a 5 speed and rear discs when nobody cared. It transformed the car into a very fun and quick driver.

[Greg D.]

quoting Vipergruen " as the average US-restoration is not very well regarded"
hmmmm.... this statement is one I find hard to digest.

unfortunately it seems to be true - the bad rep, that is... I frequent some European porsche boards, and cars coming from the US are getting a bad reputation, especially of late... not sure what happened, as you know on internet forums, all it takes is 2 or 3 posts in a row saying something is true, before you have an absolute "Truth" ;-)

I don't think good US restorers are in any way inferior to good european ones, but there seems to have been a bunch of folks taking advantage of the internet, the interest due to low dollar, long distance transactions etc, to pass on fright pigs to unsuspecting european customers... I'm sure it happens both ways overall, but right now the flow is towards europe !

but yeah, I've heard it too, several times just last month...

[sithot]

SNIP, but there seems to have been a bunch of folks taking advantage of the internet, the interest due to low dollar, long distance transactions etc, to pass on fright pigs to unsuspecting european customers... I'm sure it happens both ways overall, but right now the flow is towards europe !

Greed brings out the worst in people. I'm always amazed as to what passes for "nice". I suppose if you are judged by the company you keep I then all of us have black eyes from the bad seed a few folks are spreading. I'd like to start an underground service that separated the "chaff from the wheat" but would probably get sued along the way for telling the truth.

Along these lines, there is a long story on Pelican about a back dated car which eventually turns into a sour deal for a "bad engine". The owner (from the UK) contracted someone (a "Dr. Timmins) to build an engine for him and it didn't go so well.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...ra-reborn.html

And here is where the brown stuff hit the fan:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/4516702-post1222.html


This car appeared in Excellence and one of our "extremely talented" own did the body for it. As I understand it there were several bids for the engine work. He chose low bid. That's not how to do it and unfortunately he paid the price. I was amazed at the cubic dollars spent and was baffled that he didn't go the extra mile on the build. What’s 20-30% + when in the end you lose the whole amount when you end up with a junk engine built on a damaged case. That's right; a damaged and re-welded case "because that's what the builder had" for $40,000? Huh...?

Do not believe for one minute that we have all the bad players here.

Tom

[gsjohnson]

I don't know how many times the seller has told me that the body and paint on a perspective purchase is damn near perfect...only to find a tape off job with numerous flaws in the workmanship upon my inspection. I always ask myself why these people insist on wasting my time by not being honest and up front to begin with. They play stupid hoping the buyer is just as stupid. I just went thru this experience again just last month with the seller explaining that he never noticed the paint flaws. And this was from a person who claimed to be a experienced 356 guy.