Is It Original? Are You Sure?

[jaudette3]

The longer that I'm around these cars the less dogmatic I'm becoming about determing what is original and what is not. My latest lesson involves elephant hide. I used to be 100% sure that all 911L's produced for the U.S. had elephant hide interiors. Now the only thing I'm 100% sure of when it comes to elephant hide is that it is original with all elephants produced.

I'm working on a '68 911L Soft Window Targa at the moment. There are no signs of elephant hide on the car and I would swear in court that the basket-weave facing on the dash is original.

Coincidentally, I was talking with Harvey Weidman the other day about wheels and originality issues, and he mentioned that you can't always be sure. As an example, he mentioned that when he worked at a Porsche dealership in the day and a customer reacted negatively to an elephant hide interior, that interior was replaced with basket-weave.

It took me a long time to learn this lesson with 356's - and it appears to be the same with early 911's. There are at least two reasons that you can't be 100% sure about originality 100% of the time: (1) Porsche wanted to please their customer and (2) Porsche didn't like wasting money.

In any event, this particular 911L SWT is going to have a basket-weave interior. It would be interesting to hear of other instances where original wasn't what is generally accepted as original but it was original nonetheless.

Cheers,
JohnA

[Milou]

My 2.2T Targa was delivered new with no options according to the factory.

The car had one owner in Italy from 1970 until 2001, and was kept untouched and unregistered until I purchased it in 2008. It seems very original.

The door panels and the seats should be in vinyl and have a basketweave pattern but are actually both in leather:





Did the owner modify the interior at some point, or the importer switched the panels and seats to leather ones before delivering the car new?

[John Z Goriup]

It's precisely that kind of very common deviation from normal in the early days of 911 production that in my eyes calls the entire validity of the "911 details specific to a single production year" thread into question.

Yes, there were some details that were hewn in stone ( oil doors on '72 model year cars, rear fender flares on RS models, for instance and a few others) which are well known and have been documented in countless books and articles, but to attempt to reduce the rich variety of PORSCHE'S foibles and expedient exceptions to the rule to a dogmatic list of constants is an exercise in futility, which could easily cause more trouble and frustration than it is worth. It may also lead to a false sense of confidence and reflects the belief that "Hell Yes, it's right...... I followed the Early 911 S Registry list for that model year !".

The principle of FALSO IN UNUM, FALSUS IN OMNIBUS really fits here. In the legal field it is usually applied to mean "if one lied about this, he'll lie about everything". In the case of the above quoted thread, I submit this phrase should be paraphrased to read: " If this detail doesn't fit the formula we agreed to post, how many other things did we get wrong". You may wind up with a generic specific model year restored car that complies with "our" list, but will you have truly returned it to the condition in which it was driven out of the showroom. Isn't that what restoration is really all about.

Respectfully,

JZG

[Milou]

I see your point and agree that the factory often made changes according to available supplies and therefore one should remain very cautious of establishing rules and wrongly assume they are set in stone. I also think the importer modified certain cars to follow local market trends.

The intended purpose of the "911 details specific to a single production year" is to provide some guidelines to help identify the production year without being exclusive or restrictive. For example, one could say that elephant hide door panels were used only in 1968, but it doesn't have to imply that all 1968 cars had elephant hide interior.

As long as room is made for exceptions, I think the thread can provide some useful guidelines.

[davep]

Yes, there were some details that were hewn in stone ( oil doors on '72 model year cars,)

no longer hewn in stone:
http://www.early911sregistry.org/for...ad.php?t=13484

Basically, there are very few instances that can be assumed. The early and late cars from every year are subject to variation. The car noted above was March production,well before volume production began on the '72 model line. That is, it was a prototype '72 built while 71 production was continuing. The same thing happened in 1967 with the first 911S models in production in May while '66 models continued for months; this lead to a gap in the VIN's since they had to start the '67 series well beyond what they anticipated the '66 series would end at. There is no clear cut in the '65 to '66 transition. We know all too well that the cars were not completed in VIN sequence for many years. There are VIN's, engines and probably transmissions that are beyond the usual recorded series numbers. For practically any detail there will be an exception.

[curtisaa]

....it ALL starts with Porsches' $250.00 COA's right ?

[tfiv]

I've owned two Ls over the years, one had basketweave, one had elephant hyde. The elephant hyde car was very early.

[210bhp]

The same thing happened in 1967 with the first 911S models in production in May while '66 models continued for months; this lead to a gap in the VIN's since they had to start the '67 series well beyond what they anticipated the '66 series would end at.

I am sorry to digress and take this thread off in another direction, but I am very interested in this statement. Can you explain what evidence you have for this i.e. an actual car still in existence which proves this, or documentary evidence, or the introduction of 67 parts in a car built before July 66. I am particularly interested in the 67S production as I have the earliest RHD chassis number 67S in exsistence and I believe my friend here in the UK has one of the earliest 67S (LHD) chasis numbers in existence.

Unless this is of interest to anyone else maybe a pm or email is best. Don't want to hijack the thread any more.


Regards
Mike

[gulf908]

Guys,

Getting back to John A's original statement ...
From my memory banks I seem to recall that the elephant hide was standard issue for the '68 L and S however the basketweave was available on request.
I can't find anything in the library to back this up at this point in time.
This would all be dependent on the marketing requirements of the importer at the time.
Mind you,there was always the special wish programme,as well !
... and also what was on the assembly line shelf on the day of production...
Too many variables ?

HTH,...or maybe not...
Dennis.

[jaudette3]

More grist for the mill:

912 Toolkit in a 911

Cheers,
JohnA