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Thread: What makes an S an S?

  1. #1

    What makes an S an S?

    I have been having an ongoing dialog, mostly with myself but occasionally with a few other enthusiasts, about the character of our cars and the discussion often revolves around the premium that the market seems to attach to an S. Except for the serial number, there doesn't seem to be any difference in the chassis of a T, E or S. I understand the many tangible options that the factory offered as part of the S option package - engine enhancements, suspension enhancements, brake enhancements, etc. But I can add all of these to virtually any car, and I've seen plenty of T's that have already had many of these upgrades done over the course of the last 40+/- years, at a substantial discount to the price of a "real" S. I've seen plenty of S's that have been hacked, cut up and modified over time, such that many of these original factory offered parts are long gone, or the cars have been so over-restored that there is no way to identify if there is a single original component with the car, but at prices that are stratospheric. By any measure, these cars are all rare. So what makes an S an S?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by geshaghi View Post
    So what makes an S an S?
    Perception. Desirability. Performance. Emotion. Resale value. Cool factor. There are a LOT of reasons, but does it REALLY matter? People with 'E' models are always starting threads that 'they are faster to 100 then an 'S', 'they are rarer then an 'S'., etc etc etc.....but do they EVER approach the VALUE of an 'S'? No, and the reasons can be intangible. Given a choice, if they have the money, most will choose an 'S'. It IS want it IS....
    Bahia Red '72 911S
    Meerblau PTS 2019 Speedster
    GP Silver, 2018 GT2RS WP....the BEAST
    Daytona Gray 2021 RS6 Avant....BEAST #2...Best daily EVER

    ES #333

    GONE...MANY, many great ones....

  3. #3
    I've always felt that vintage cars, and early 911's in particular, all have a unique character - a personality or soul, so to speak. A large part of this character comes from the impressions left as a result of time and use. I've seen some cars that have had virtually all of this character removed by being so overrestored that they seem almost artificial. On the other end of the spectrum, I've seen plenty of cars where the MFI is long gone, the car has been converted to a shorthood, or most of the various S bits are non-existent, yet they are still touted as a "911S." Particularly as it relates to these latter types of cars, I'm often left scratching my head wondering why these are thought of as any more desirable than a T that has been thoughtfully upgraded with performance enhancements that would make an S blush (or at least give it a good run for the money). Has the "status" of an S become the real driver here?

  4. #4
    Physics Guy oscillon's Avatar
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    Just buy a 65 or 66 911 and then you won't be so tormented ;-)

  5. #5
    Porsche Nut merbesfield's Avatar
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    I have to agree with George that the S’s have become very over rated as far as the money goes and quite possibly a status thing for many. Yes they will always be more collectable and more valuable, but the ROI will probably not be as high as other choices such as a T or E. Having owned both a 73S and a 70T, I would always choose the S over the T, but they are definitely more tiring to drive in traffic, though never boring. Who wouldn’t rather own an S over a T, but are they really worth the increased costs over an extremely original T or E? I think the smart money is to look for a very original T or E IMO.
    Mark Erbesfield
    2018 911 Carrera T 7spd manual 😊
    1973 911S #9113301282
    1957 356A #58648
    1966 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ45LV
    1982 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40
    1977 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40
    1972 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40 FST (Factory Soft Top)
    1971 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40 “Patina Queen”
    1979 MB 450SL "Dad's old car"
    2019 Cayenne "Wife's car"

  6. #6
    The issue of why an S is worth so much more than other early 911's has been raised a number of times. My quick answer (without trying to put anyone down) is that if you have to ask you don't get it. All early 911's are neat. But the S is at the top of the heap and is valued as such. Yes you can build any early Porsche to perform as well or even better than an S. But the S was built by the factory with performance in mind as the ultimate goal from the beginning. It's an original. How many 2.0L cars in the mid 1960's had a top speed of 140 mph plus...that could actually be maintainted for hours...without an engine failure? Only an early 911S. I've been lucky to own and race many early 911's. All are great...but the early 911S cars are special and that is reflected in their higher value.

  7. #7
    My question isn't so much about the money. Consider this purely hypothetical scenario: A car that left the factory as an S in 1970. By 1980, the MFI was gone in favor of Webers, as the mechanic had a hard time keeping the car in tune. Some time in the mid 80's, it was in a minor accident, and like so many cars, was updated to a shorthood and, as part of this "improvement" lost the original fender mounted oil cooler. A few years later, when the original motor was in need of a rebuild, a well running 3.0 was found and installed in place of the original. Over time, as the suspension components wore out, they were replaced with either the latest update available from Porsche, or when the owner's budget was tight, less expensive replacement pieces. Is this car still an S?

    When the original 2.2S motor was removed by the mechanic, he put it on the shelf next to the MFI he removed a couple of years earlier. When the shop finally moved, they decided to sell the old parts that had been collecting dust, and the motor and MFI were rebuilt and brought back to life, to be installed in a 70T that had been optioned from the factory with nearly all of the S enhancements available - brakes, suspension, gauges. This car has remained largely unmolested over the years, with one repaint in the original color a few years ago. An aftermarket fender mounted oil cooler is installed when the newly rebuilt 2.2S is put in the car. Is this car an S?

  8. #8
    I think you will find very similiar issues with many of the other makes.

    For example, the Mopar 426 Hemi. Yeah, the 440-6 Wedge IS quicker out of the hole and up to about 100 MPH. But just like our 911E's and 911S's, the Hemi commands a significant premium over the 440.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    1972 911S Targa Paint to Sample Cocoa/Tan Leather (# 0836)

    Other Early:
    1974 Carrera SR Coupe (USA) GP White/Tan Shetland Cloth/Gold "Carrera" Stripes
    1971 911T Coupe Tangerine/Black (Destroyed in fire at Porsche Shop )
    1968 912 Coupe Irish Green/Black

    When In the "Dark" Side:
    1988 944 Turbo S Alpine White/Gray (1 of 481 Turbo S's Imported into USA)
    1991 928GT Guards Red/Spec Order Gray (1 of 85 GT's Imported into USA for 1991)

    Current Daily Driver: 2007 Shelby GT Mustang

  9. #9
    Well when you consider what an RS is worth a S looks like a bargain. I have owned almost all derivations 911's at one time or another, all 911's are great cars but the S's really are special, the wail that motor makes over a T or a E is worth it to me. Can I build a faster car for less money (I have), yes but that is not the point.
    Phil
    Early S Junkie # 658

  10. #10
    Porsche Nut merbesfield's Avatar
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    There is not doubt, the early S's are a blast to drive. Especially when you blow past some high powered muscle car guy.
    Mark Erbesfield
    2018 911 Carrera T 7spd manual 😊
    1973 911S #9113301282
    1957 356A #58648
    1966 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ45LV
    1982 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40
    1977 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40
    1972 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40 FST (Factory Soft Top)
    1971 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40 “Patina Queen”
    1979 MB 450SL "Dad's old car"
    2019 Cayenne "Wife's car"

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