What makes an S an S?

[geshaghi]

I have been having an ongoing dialog, mostly with myself but occasionally with a few other enthusiasts, about the character of our cars and the discussion often revolves around the premium that the market seems to attach to an S. Except for the serial number, there doesn't seem to be any difference in the chassis of a T, E or S. I understand the many tangible options that the factory offered as part of the S option package - engine enhancements, suspension enhancements, brake enhancements, etc. But I can add all of these to virtually any car, and I've seen plenty of T's that have already had many of these upgrades done over the course of the last 40+/- years, at a substantial discount to the price of a "real" S. I've seen plenty of S's that have been hacked, cut up and modified over time, such that many of these original factory offered parts are long gone, or the cars have been so over-restored that there is no way to identify if there is a single original component with the car, but at prices that are stratospheric. By any measure, these cars are all rare. So what makes an S an S?

[69Sman]

So what makes an S an S?

Perception. Desirability. Performance. Emotion. Resale value. Cool factor. There are a LOT of reasons, but does it REALLY matter? People with 'E' models are always starting threads that 'they are faster to 100 then an 'S', 'they are rarer then an 'S'., etc etc etc.....but do they EVER approach the VALUE of an 'S'? No, and the reasons can be intangible. Given a choice, if they have the money, most will choose an 'S'. It IS want it IS....

[geshaghi]

I've always felt that vintage cars, and early 911's in particular, all have a unique character - a personality or soul, so to speak. A large part of this character comes from the impressions left as a result of time and use. I've seen some cars that have had virtually all of this character removed by being so overrestored that they seem almost artificial. On the other end of the spectrum, I've seen plenty of cars where the MFI is long gone, the car has been converted to a shorthood, or most of the various S bits are non-existent, yet they are still touted as a "911S." Particularly as it relates to these latter types of cars, I'm often left scratching my head wondering why these are thought of as any more desirable than a T that has been thoughtfully upgraded with performance enhancements that would make an S blush (or at least give it a good run for the money). Has the "status" of an S become the real driver here?

[oscillon]

Just buy a 65 or 66 911 and then you won't be so tormented ;-)

[merbesfield]

I have to agree with George that the S’s have become very over rated as far as the money goes and quite possibly a status thing for many. Yes they will always be more collectable and more valuable, but the ROI will probably not be as high as other choices such as a T or E. Having owned both a 73S and a 70T, I would always choose the S over the T, but they are definitely more tiring to drive in traffic, though never boring. Who wouldn’t rather own an S over a T, but are they really worth the increased costs over an extremely original T or E? I think the smart money is to look for a very original T or E IMO.

[Richard]

The issue of why an S is worth so much more than other early 911's has been raised a number of times. My quick answer (without trying to put anyone down) is that if you have to ask you don't get it. All early 911's are neat. But the S is at the top of the heap and is valued as such. Yes you can build any early Porsche to perform as well or even better than an S. But the S was built by the factory with performance in mind as the ultimate goal from the beginning. It's an original. How many 2.0L cars in the mid 1960's had a top speed of 140 mph plus...that could actually be maintainted for hours...without an engine failure? Only an early 911S. I've been lucky to own and race many early 911's. All are great...but the early 911S cars are special and that is reflected in their higher value.

[LongRanger]

I have been having an ongoing dialog, mostly with myself but occasionally with a few other enthusiasts, about the character of our cars and the discussion often revolves around the premium that the market seems to attach to an S. Except for the serial number, there doesn't seem to be any difference in the chassis of a T, E or S. I understand the many tangible options that the factory offered as part of the S option package - engine enhancements, suspension enhancements, brake enhancements, etc. But I can add all of these to virtually any car, and I've seen plenty of T's that have already had many of these upgrades done over the course of the last 40+/- years, at a substantial discount to the price of a "real" S.

Funny, huh? With so little separating an 'S' from the other versions, you'd think there'd be tons of Replikas. But there aren't any. Lots of cars with 'S' trim and 'S' brakes and 'S' this and 'S' that . . . but I've never seen an 'S' clone. Only non-matching number 'S's. (And those seem to get treated like they're radioactive or something.)

. . . I've seen plenty of S's that have been hacked, cut up and modified over time, such that many of these original factory offered parts are long gone, or the cars have been so over-restored that there is no way to identify if there is a single original component with the car, but at prices that are stratospheric. By any measure, these cars are all rare. So what makes an S an S?

You're asking two questions.

Regarding prices, I think that's a matter of supply/demand --- a small number of cars with a growing audience that's attracted to them. Supply is obvious --- I have a '70 and according to the Red Book, there were ~1750 coupes built. Factor in 4 decades fun-fun-fun, the vagaries of owner enthusiasm/means/intelligence, some pretty marginal corrosion protection, and just plain luck, and the number of cars left in any condition gets cut down, like, a lot.

Now factor in Porsche's image. Unlike some other 'brands,' Porsche's audience is world-wide. And when you say 'Porsche' . . . the image that comes up in most people's mind is of a 911 -- here, London, Mumbai, Moscow, or Beijing. With more and more people, with money in their pocket, driving, learning about cars . . . the math is nuts.

As for S-ness . . . to me? --- well, its more than just a few bits and some trim. Or anything to do with 'numbers' . . . matching or not.

First off, 'S' cars are so low-key, they're virtually invisible. No wings, flairs, stripes, or superfluous hornification to attract attention . . . just a letter on the lid. (Love that.)

But driving one? OMG. I spend at least 5 minutes just getting mine out of the garage, firing-up, warming-up, then taking it out onto the street. And after I get it moving, I tip-toe around for another 10 minutes, two-fingering the gear-changes, timing every movement (mine and the car's), doing my best not to stall it or bounce it off anything, while it warms up some more. Then, when the thing finally does settle in, I have the pleasure of being slapped-around by every Sport-Brutility, wanna-be Drifter, and Soccer-Mom-on-a-cell-phone as we go merrily down the street --- oozing/dripping/squirting/spraying/burning oil and gargling gasoline . . .

. . . as long as I keep the revs under 3500.

'Cause, if I get some room -- on a longer stretch of road, or, best of all, an open highway? . . . I'll wind it out.

Acceleration, but not as in noise or shock or drama.

More like a catapult launch. Starts out kinda slow, sneaky, then? . . . .

ZZWWWWWIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING! . . . . .

All of a sudden, this small, old, silly, poisonous little extravagance starts to make sense, transforming from an occlusion in the arteries of commerce into some kind of sub-atomic particle, moving through space and time while the rest of the world stands still.

No engine management --- except me. No ABS, traction control, stability-program, air-bags, side-guard door beams, open-door-buzzers, air conditioning, or cup-holders.

On 185-section tires . . .



Now --- THAT's entertainment. That's S-ness.

Rick Kreiskott

[Bobby Smith]

Hide the VIN and you won't know it's not what it's not

How's this for hiding the VIN?

Orangello really is a sweet and FASSSST 911 that was lovingly built. I'm proud to have taken it to the next level and to be it's caretaker. Orangello is in good hands!

[NV Stig]

I asked the guy who did the resto on mine this question, marketing aside, and a 30 HP increase, what made my 69S a desirable car compared to a T or an E. Especially when a race car guy of the era, or an R Gruppe guy today can make some mods that will wipe the floor with an S today.
He pointed out that this was the mad professor's (Ferry's) image of what a street legal race car should be. Our opinions aside, this is what Professor Porsche thought was the pinnacle of engineering at the time. My resto guy really had a soft spot for the 67S and the 69S in particular. Cars that were made one model of with designs specific to them. The 69S is the last 2 liter S made and the only one in the LWB. The MFI was another thing that made it unique. The idea of the magnesium engine case to shed weight which turned out to be a real headache later if you got cracks in it. All those ideas we can look back in hindsight and say that was a good or bad idea, but the Porsche gang was looking at in real time saying "zees ees ze vay it must be done mein freund"
Compund that though as a piece of history with the fact there is a scarcity issue today. How many survived, what shape is it in now, etc.

I'm trying to take the classic Porsche emotion out of the equation with this example. My daily driver is a BMW 335xi, it makes sense having the AWD in the region where I live. It is my go big go stupid car to date. If I didn't live in the snow I would have gotten the M3, Bimmer's version of the S. Now, I've chipped it, thrown a SS catback on it, Stuffed in a cold air intake and put in a Stage 3 suspension kit in it. It goes like a champ, and grips an rips with the best of them on the road. But it will never be an M3 in anyone else's eyes, despite what I do to it. Even if it will beat one, it will never be an M3. Same reason a T or an E wont be an S, even if they are modified.

[M491]

So I hate to say it, but it still isn't clear what makes an S and S. It can't be the way these cars were equipped by the factory because we've seen cars that have nothing left of what they left the factory with, including long hoods in some cases. At the same time, cars like my 1972 , numbers matching 911T, which has absolutely everything 1972 911S cars left the factory with (except for VIN), is valued at nothing near a true 911S. My car even have the 7200 RPM tachometer. Actually, since I decided to use 911E cams (but have OEM S cams on the shelf) I have a 911E tach in the dash right now and the 911S tach on the shelf. The engine in my car was a T engine, but it was rebuilt to complete 2.4 S specs, to include the original 2.4 S Mahle pistons and cylinders, heads, MFI stacks and manifolds, etc.

To go back to the original question, what makes an S and S? Is it just mojo? We've determined it is not originality that makes an S an S, because a car that has nothing original left other than the VIN is still valued as a "true S", while my car that has everything that the "true S left the factory with, other than the S VIN, is not valued the same. Even with an original S drivetrain. Interesting, but inconsistent!