68 911T Homoligation

[Rennman]

I am trying to find out the difference between the 68T with a Porsche body vs. a Karman body. The 68T was homoligated for group 3 but only for the Porsche body cars. It is my understanding the Porsche T was lighter than the Karman T as well as the Porsche body T being the lightest of the 911s excluding the R of course. What would make these cars lighter? Is it more than the deletion of undercoating/less undercoating and no sound pads? The only difference that I can see between a T and an S are the decos and carpet which does not add up to much. A lot of these 68Ts were used/converted for racing (the Hart Ski car comes to mind as well as the Gulf blue Gulf rally car) as well as to homoligate the T Rally so I am trying to find out the rest of the story on these almost forgotten cars. I have an Ivory 68T that was ordered with LSD, Konis, S instruments and tank and has some cues that it saw some action.

Don

[Flieger]

I thought it was all because Porsche homologated it with no luxury options and smaller wheels and everything else was the lightest it could be. The S had all the luxo stuff so had to run heavier. But the T could get all the S performance options and run at the lower weight since the homologation was based on the standard car.

[Rennman]

There really is not much in the way of luxury on the S that adds up to much weight to account for the difference in cars but the main question is why are the 68 T Karman cars not homoligated and why is the Porsche body T lighter?

Don

[911T1971]

The main question is why are the 68 T Karman cars not homoligated ?
Don

Maybe factory build cars would be relegated into compet/homologation while still on the manufacturing process line. Why ship Karmann bodies from Osnabrück if they would be built to spec's next door.

[Rennman]

I get all of that but then why would a 68 T with a Porsche body be a homoligation car and a 68 T with a Karman body not be? There must be something different or?? Karim you may be partially on to something. The Porsche body car has the rear deck harness mounts and I do not think the Karman body does.

Don

[Bantam]

Don't know if this helps, but picking up on Karim's point we have already found a couple of areas on my car where modifications at the shell factory build stage will have reduced weight:

1. Rear lid catch deletion - blank "B" post would not make a difference to the weight but it resulted in no metal guide tube from the rear of the "B" post round the left inner wing to the rear of the car; there would obviously then be the deletion of the upper and lower lock parts themselves plus pull wire and handle although they would not really be classed as "body shell".

2. Removal of the vent metalwork on the roof at the rear of the car (final picture shows another '68 car for reference).

We have yet to get the car up on a ramp to see if there are any other areas of difference and I am afraid I don't know the weight saving the above would account for.

[Rennman]

Tim while that definitely would reduce weight those changes are only on the T Rally not the 500 cars for homoligation. Cool stuff. Thanks.

Don

[Rotmilky]

I get all of that but then why would a 68 T with a Porsche body be a homoligation car and a 68 T with a Karman body not be? There must be something different or?? Karim you may be partially on to something. The Porsche body car has the rear deck harness mounts and I do not think the Karman body does.

Don

Don,

My 68 Karman (US Normal) has the rear deck harness mounts. I'm pretty sure they're stock. I can send detailed photos if you like.

--Von

[HughH]

I am trying to find out the difference between the 68T with a Porsche body vs. a Karman body. The 68T was homoligated for group 3 but only for the Porsche body cars.
Don

Don

I am interested in where you got the information that the 68T was only homologated for the Porsche built bodies and not the Karmann ones.

my reading of the FIA 577 document which homologates the 1968T into Gp 3 is that it applies from chassis number 118.20001 onwards. see below

Given Porsche build bodies are all 118.20xxx they clearly qualify , but why don't the Karmann 118.25xxx ones? They still start with 118.2 and just because the next number is 5 should not disqualify them as 5 is greater than 0.

The ex 1969 targa florio class winner 118.25233 (car #86 at that event), currently for sale at Elevenparts is apparently a documented Gp 3 car, rebuilt as such at the werks and obviously by its chassis number was a Karmann car.

I know you have a lot of history with these cars, and have owned quite a few, so I was particularly interested in your views on this.

[Rennman]

Hugh,

I have experience with some of the SWB Factory race cars but not the T so much. At Rennsport I spoke with a gentleman who races a Rally Spec 68 T groupe 3 car and he gave me this information. I was trying to confirm the information he gave me.

Don