67S -The last great Porsche Mystery?

[66S]

Will anyone ever peruse the production[body] books to determine the earliest 67Ss? Chassis #, motor # wont determine build order so we may NEVER know the earliest Ss.

[preS]

All raced at the 1965 monte carlo rallye.

66 MC?

Richard

[Carl Bauer]

Here's the '65 Monte poster.

Attachment 49201

[preS]

The three earliest 911 prototype with engine 901/02 with S spec engines are

303075
303076
303077

All raced at the 1965 monte carlo rallye.

I would think that these 3 ran the 66 MC, not the 65.

The Monte is held in Jan. The last 64 produced 911 is (by head) 300235. By Jan. 66 the 911's were in the 3003XX range.

Just my $.02

Richard

[Bobs 67S]

Looks like Richard has the same question/answer...

Help me out with this, the serial numbers of those first three cars 303075 76 77 are of December 1965 production and wouldn't they have raced in the Monte January 1966 race?

The 306 655S + cars would have been of November/December 1966 production - raced in the 1967(?) Monte Carlo. Just a question?

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Just read about one of the 1964 cars that became the 1965 Monte Carlo entry:
"Race Engineer Peter Falk sits behind the wheel of the 1964 911 coupe that he and Herbert Linge drove to fifth overall in the 1965 Monte Carlo Rally." Panorama, July 2008.
Car is at the Porsche Museum, don't know the chassis number.
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[preS]

Raj,

Where did you get the information that the 911's on you tube are 303075 76 77? Can it not be 64 produced 911's (300XXX) that you see on that film?

Richard

[Bobs 67S]

The utube presented by Raj is the 1966 race. It has at least 3 different 911's. And yes the Rally badge on a hood is "1966" (Close up of route maps).
The utube also identifies the remaining porsche racers by name (edit to corrrect spellings) Buchet and Schlesser. It also mentions a french 911 team.

According to Peter Falk (Pano July 2008) there was a single 911 entry in the 1965 race. The Linge Falk entry, signal red, fitted with Weber carbs.

Can we talk about the first cars with 911S engines separate from the Monte Carlo entered cars? (I don't see where Raj has identified them being the same cars).
Edit(Let me qualify - I don's see where Raj has identified the source for these being the "S" engined and the Monte cars)

[gtgroupe3]

Members on the Registry have 305133S/960012 & 305136S/960011.

During some down time from Post Grad work a while back, I ran some tests on the 67 911S noted on the registry list to find a potential chassis match for my spare engine (960913).

Note: The simple tests (i.e., pop var, etc) won’t tell anyone what is the correct engine and chassis is but it will show, with a high degree of certainty, which cases fall outside the range of what would be expected for the ‘67S and their respective chassis numbers. As one moves further along the production the population settles into a relatively tractable pattern (e.g., +/- 100 [not act]).

I only did this out of curiosity and for my own selfish reasons, so when I have saved enough lunch money to find the right/better ‘67S, I can be better informed. (Noting that kardex and COA records from my very limited experience have some issues with accuracy and as time passes with prices climbing, history can be fuzzy w/o proper documentation. )

R/

[preS]

Bob,

I am not getting you.

Raj mentions that 303075 76 77 ran the 65 MC which more likely is the 66 MC (also backed up by the 66 youtube film which is mistakenly labelled as 65).

Also it's unlikely to me that the 65 MC by Peter Falk was ran w/ Webers. It's more than a year later (may? 66) that the production cars got Webers.

Are you able to get the VIN of the Falk car?

Richard

[Bobs 67S]

Good questions Richard.

The story in Pano has quotes from Falk about the car, the drive and instruction from Huschke von Hanstein "You can finish last" - "just don't bring it to the finish damaged. I want to show the 911 to Prince Ranier". The story says "Pitted against well prepared rally cars, the signal red 911 was all but stock although it was fitted with Weber carburetors". (That's the source for the 1965 MC car having webers).

Tobias Aichele (Porsche 911 Engine History...) refers to this 1965 Monte Carlo engine as the very first "competition engine" and it "had more than 160 horsepower on tap". (Does this sound like a protoype 911 S engine?) He also admits the factory found the weber to work early on but "Still, Porsche held fast to it's Solex carburetors for the first model year, as it had to honor its supplier contracts."

As a side bar (sorry don't mean to hyjack):
The factory was well aware of the solex problems as production started. At Rennsport Reunion III this past November I had the good fortune to engage Master Mechanic Hubert Kinsler in a conversation. (Mr Kinsler was the mechanic at the factory who hand built the experimental engines and the first group of 901 and 911. In early 1965 he arrived at Brumos in Florida with the job of training all the USA mechanics on the "new" engine). 43 years later, he looked into my #300 149 engine compartment and exclaimed.."I built that engine".

Sitting next to my car is the other Minnesota 911 - making it a pair of cars driven to the event (my road worn Guards Red and the companion - recently completed, Polo Red, restoration), Hubert was amazed Kevin Stensrud had driven his (made in) 1965 911 from Minnesota to Daytona with the solex carbs. "How did you drive that far without hole-ing a piston??". According to Mr. Kinsler the solex were not in service long enough to find a fix and he was more than happy to change out any car to the webers. He gave detail of how he could change a piston without removing the engine from the car (in 1965)... and, stood in amazement a workable solution had been found.
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The Museum car has been identified as #302503, slate gray with a red interior. The car in Mr Falk's interview is slate gray with a red interior. After describing the Monte first in class and fifth overall Signal Red car it says today "it is slate gray". (This could be a representative car for the period as has been some of the race cars. See Hugh's thread on that). The story continues on " For years it has been the Porsche Museum's representative early 911".
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Now - back to 1967 911S. Raj, did you mention where the numbers for the 303075-077 cars with the first S engines comes from?

Richard, no slight intended I just want to know more about the 303075-077 cars and the development of the 911S. There were two methods for car origination, production cars and the racing cars, some cars were overlaps (911, 911S to the 911R) and yet other cars were separate and unique developments, or sometimes engineers just wanted to make hotrods.

Knowing Hans Mezger wanted to push the envelope and Dr. Piech was typically looking for a "fun" car, the 303075-077 cars (Nov-Dec 1965) would predate the "S" (intro in Sept 1966) cars - yet be almost a year after that first Monte 160hp engine. Did it take that long to get sanctioned approval to make the 160 hp "S" engines?