Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 31

Thread: Elephant Racing Low-Friction Control Arm Mounts and other suspension questions..

  1. #1
    Loud lederhosen saves lives hoffman912's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    1,702

    Elephant Racing Low-Friction Control Arm Mounts and other suspension questions..

    OK, so wrapping up the research phase of my suspension project.

    Low-Friction Control Arm Mounts -1) can they be used with rubber elephant bushings and 2) do they really make that much of a difference and are worth the extra scratch or is money better spent elsewhere?

    monoballs (camber plate and banana arm) -is having monoballs there worthless if my a arm and spring plate bushings are ER rubber, or do i really need to go to polybronze?

    my budget and plan was for ER's rubber (less maintenance and i hear poly bronze really only make a dif if you track it), but at the same time i know this is one of those do it once projects so i want to do it right.. thoughts?
    Harry Hoffman
    1968 912 #3656, burgundy red 'Fritz'. Some mods..
    912 Registry charter member #912R0195-C
    Early 911S Registry Member #2070
    356 Registry Member #36691

    http://hoffman912.blogspot.com/

  2. #2
    The low friction mounts allow the bushings to be co-axial despite chassis imperfections due to manufacturing tolerances or accident damage. This allows the bearings to move freely. The rubber does all that in one- twisting for the A-arm to move and also accomodating parallel and angular misalignment.

    I would say either do all rubber or all monoball+bearings.

    If you want low maintainance and high performance use the Rebel Racing bushings (now available for rear as well as front on torsion bar cars). They come with spherical misalignment washers that accomplish the same thing as the low friction mounts. The Rebel Racing front bushings are actually cheaper than the polybroze+low friction mount combination from what I hear. Not to mention they are also lighter than the heavy bronze stuff and have less deflection.

    When you think about it, polybronze does not make sense. If you are trying to remove deflection why encase your bearing in a squishy polymer?

    I really like my Rebel Racing bushings. The old urethane bushings I had were binding terribly. The car felt like it just crashed over little bumps and had no grip. The Rebel Racing bushings give a much softer ride and allow the suspension to actually work. The grip and stability is excellent now. A world of difference. I have monoballs for the strut top and rear trailing arm (bannana arm).

    Now, in the interest of full disclosure, I must say that I was so impressed with the Rebel Racing bushings that I am now a part time helper for Clint at Rebel Racing. I do not get comission on sales, however. I am just a very satisfied customer who happens to go to school a few miles from his operation and have therefore started to help him out.
    Last edited by Flieger; 04-07-2012 at 08:37 AM.

    Max_911S_fahrer, on Flickr
    1971 911S, 2.7RS spec MFI engine, suspension mods, lightened
    Early 911S Registry Member #425

  3. #3
    Loud lederhosen saves lives hoffman912's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    1,702
    thanks. i looked at rebel racing and they didnt have a whole lot for swb cars.

    so... if i did rubber bushings, then the low friction control arm mount would be a waste because of the give the rubber has. is this statement correct?

    and your saying monoball banana arms and camber plates would be a waste with rubber? Are you sure? anyone else confirm that?
    Harry Hoffman
    1968 912 #3656, burgundy red 'Fritz'. Some mods..
    912 Registry charter member #912R0195-C
    Early 911S Registry Member #2070
    356 Registry Member #36691

    http://hoffman912.blogspot.com/

  4. #4
    member #1515
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Posts
    3,709
    I went full rubber ER and am very satisfied.
    David

    '73 S Targa #0830 2.7 MFI rebuilt to RS specs

  5. #5
    Loud lederhosen saves lives hoffman912's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    1,702
    what about camber plate and banana bushings?
    Harry Hoffman
    1968 912 #3656, burgundy red 'Fritz'. Some mods..
    912 Registry charter member #912R0195-C
    Early 911S Registry Member #2070
    356 Registry Member #36691

    http://hoffman912.blogspot.com/

  6. #6
    member #1515
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Posts
    3,709
    Same, All from ER in rubber. I don't do any competition with my car but do drive it pretty hard. Our Texas roads are a little too rough for anything but rubber. I did this several years ago and the car feels just as when new. I'm also , quite a bit older than Fleiger and when I was younger I had delrin etc. and I'm sure both the poybronze and rebel are good products but they do require additional maintenance quite frequently unless I am mistaken.
    David

    '73 S Targa #0830 2.7 MFI rebuilt to RS specs

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by hoffman912 View Post
    thanks. i looked at rebel racing and they didnt have a whole lot for swb cars.

    so... if i did rubber bushings, then the low friction control arm mount would be a waste because of the give the rubber has. is this statement correct?

    and your saying monoball banana arms and camber plates would be a waste with rubber? Are you sure? anyone else confirm that?
    That is correct. The rear springplate bushings fit SWB. I don't see why the fronts should not fit SWB. The torsion bars are interchangable and the chassis hard points are the same I believe.

    Max_911S_fahrer, on Flickr
    1971 911S, 2.7RS spec MFI engine, suspension mods, lightened
    Early 911S Registry Member #425

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by RSTarga View Post
    Same, All from ER in rubber. I don't do any competition with my car but do drive it pretty hard. Our Texas roads are a little too rough for anything but rubber. I did this several years ago and the car feels just as when new. I'm also , quite a bit older than Fleiger and when I was younger I had delrin etc. and I'm sure both the poybronze and rebel are good products but they do require additional maintenance quite frequently unless I am mistaken.
    That is the beauty of the Rebel Racing bushings. Lighter than PB, cheaper than PB, and maintenance-free like rubber. The Poly-Bronze require religious greasing to stay smooth, and even then the grease can hold grit and score the bushings. The Rebel Racing bearings use a dry lubricant and are designed to embed and work around any grit that may enter. There is pretty much zero clearance between the race and bushing sleeve on the Rebel Racing bushings so not much is getting in there.

    The RR and ER bushings both make the suspension seem softer since the spring rate and damping from the rubber bushing is gone.

    Max_911S_fahrer, on Flickr
    1971 911S, 2.7RS spec MFI engine, suspension mods, lightened
    Early 911S Registry Member #425

  9. #9
    Senior Member John Z Goriup's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Eagle, Idaho
    Posts
    3,070
    Harry,

    I submit that you first need to establish clearly in your minds eye the purpose to which you will put the car and then proceed with the optimum combination of giblets for that purpose.

    If this is going to be primarily a street driven machine, I urge you strongly to consider a thoroughly refreshed, all OEM rubber bushed suspension, avoiding poly-urethane bushings and monoblocks entirely. For what it's worth I had the full ER set-up including all the above on my car initially ( all except monoblocks in the top of the front strut ) and removed it all after a month or so because the combination was simply too much for enjoyable weekends on public roads.

    I want to emphasize that is not intended to be critical of ER's products, Chuck Morelands goods are the best there are in their category, I merely admit to having been swayed by uninformed, immature, advice by extreme folks who think only the most drastic modifications are good enough. When I came to my senses after about a thousand miles of driving and testing, I changed to the present set up with 7" & 8" x 15" Fuchs wheels F & R respectively, 185 / 75 x 15" tires, alum. front x-member, 21mm Sanders hollow T-bars, turbo toe-rods and all new OEM rubber everywhere in the front, alum. trailing arms, adj. spring plates, Bilsteins, 26mm Sanders hollow T bars, and 20mm Smart Racing anti-roll bars F & R, with OEM rubber bushes and 225 / 60 x 15" tires on the rear. Harry, I couldn't be happier with this arrangement. It's not harsh, there is no noise nor a rattle anywhere, the ride is supremely comfortable, compliant, stable, and the suspension has that "deep kneed" feeling to it that Henry Manney III was always talking about when describing what he considered the best-riding cars: a unique ride quality which encourages the classic Porsche driving style.............you know, "Mit Sturm and Drang" as the old German saying goes.

    If you plan to TT the car or do an occasional track day think long and hard if you really feel that a few days a year at the track justify the rattling, the harshness & the deterioration in ride quality you'll have to endure the rest of the year.

    If, on the other hand, the car is destined for the track and racing the majority of the time, then by all means you should consider a balls-out, no-compromise hardcore racing set-up with poly-bronzes and monoballs because you'll be after lap times, not comfort, but don't be disappointed if you don't enjoy it on the road...........not even a little.

    Remember, this is not some Buick we're talking about. A 911 with properly selected wheels and tires with a competently rebuilt stock suspension, all new rubber OEM bushings, appropriate shocks and sensibly sized / matched T-bars and quality sway bars ( now, when talking anti-roll bars you don't want stock, you'll want fully adjustable aftermarket products ) will provide you with handling that will positively astound you and in all probability make you feel pretty inadequate once you start to seriously explore the full spectrum of dynamics it has to offer, while retaining amazing comfort and ride quality. Bear in mind 911 /912s are 40 or so years old in a lot of cases and an unforgiving suspension with limited ability to absorb shock and vibration will accelerate metal fatigue in the chassis. 911s aren't the most torque-resistant tubs to begin with, why aggravate the situation with a boy-racer suspension set-up. I submit the enjoyment in driving a well set-up 911 fast lies in the electric, live-wire feel, ultra-responsive feel of the wheels working their magic over the pavement, not the deadened clanging of a needlessly race-oriented chassis set-up. Matching the chassis / suspension to powertrain capabilities is the most important decision in winding up with a 911 / 912 you can't wait to take out and enjoy, instead of obsessing over details of design and material selection. Let the use to which you plan to put your car determine the ultimate suspension configuration..............you can always "upgrade" to meet changing expectations at any time in the future.
    Before it became Ruprecht, my Porsche was a '70 911 T



    Paying member No. 895 since 2006


    " slavish adherence to originality wasn't for me, because the car wasn't as good as it could be."
    Rob Dickinson's response when asked what motivated him to build Singers

  10. #10
    John, what torsion bars were you running? The bushings made my car much quieter and smoother riding. The dampers, anti-sway bars, and torsion bars affect should do more to affect the ride than the bushings/bearings. There should definately not be any "clanging" noises.

    Max_911S_fahrer, on Flickr
    1971 911S, 2.7RS spec MFI engine, suspension mods, lightened
    Early 911S Registry Member #425

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-09-2013, 08:42 PM
  2. New Elephant PolyBronze Bearings and Low-Friction Mounts
    By Longballa in forum For Sale: 911 Parts
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-19-2012, 06:33 PM
  3. FS brand NEW Elephant suspension parts
    By 911scfanatic in forum For Sale: 911 Parts
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-29-2009, 03:49 PM
  4. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-26-2009, 06:37 AM
  5. FS: Smart Racing engine mounts and transmission mounts
    By RPMClassic in forum For Sale/Wanted: Early 911 Cars, 1965 - 1973
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-22-2006, 07:49 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Message Board Disclaimer
This is a public forum. Messages posted here can be viewed by the public. The Early 911S Registry is not responsible for messages posted in its online forums, and any message will express the views of the author and not the Early 911S Registry. Use of online forums shall constitute the agreement of the user not to post anything of religious or political content, false and defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise to violate the law and the further agreement of the user to be solely responsible for and hold the Early 911S Registry harmless in the event of any claim based on their message. Any viewer who finds a message objectionable should contact us immediately by email. The Early 911S Registry has the ability to remove objectionable messages and we will make every effort to do so, within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary.