$25000 for a historic (winter) rally car, what’s your pick?

[uai]

Sorry for writing just short, but Typing is a pita on the iPhone.
Don't forget the BMW 2002 it didn't win the Monte but it won World Championship with Warmbold/Todt.
18.000€ buys a 180 hp engine 5spd dogleg, a LSD, some brakes axles wheels and Suspension leaving 7000€ for the shell and Safety Equipment.
It hasn't too much weight on the rear axle so fitting a big ATL fuel cell is no problem.
If you are not looking for period genuine Alpina Parts, parts are available and fairly priced.
Even if you want more than 185hp there is room for more, but then it is on a different budget.
image4896.jpg

[NorthernThrux]

I found this Saab 96 relatively close to me. 1961 with a 2-stroke engine, FIVA pass and all. They are hilarious little cars to me, but I’m afraid that 38hp will be unbearable once the novelty of the sound wears off.

I can hardly wrap my head around the fact that this car won Monte Carlo 5 years before the 911 did. The difference between the two cars in terms of performance feels like 25 years or more.

The Monte Carlo winning Saab that Eric Carlsson drove had 70-75 hp. The rest was pure driving talent, freewheeling, hand brakes that operated on the front wheels and fearlessness (i.e. big Swedish meatballs). And sadly, those cars are dirt cheap now thanks to the demise of Saab (not that they were ever pricey). You can get those rally MC kits for the 850s still if you hunt around. It would be quite a hoot.

This factory MC went for 21k earlier this year. http://bringatrailer.com/2012/05/11/...nte-carlo-850/

[Biancaneve]

Sorry for writing just short, but Typing is a pita on the iPhone.
Don't forget the BMW 2002 ...
image4896.jpg

+1 if ti or tii

[peterf]

Sorry for writing just short, but Typing is a pita on the iPhone.
Don't forget the BMW 2002 it didn't win the Monte but it won World Championship with Warmbold/Todt.
18.000€ buys a 180 hp engine 5spd dogleg, a LSD, some brakes axles wheels and Suspension leaving 7000€ for the shell and Safety Equipment.
It hasn't too much weight on the rear axle so fitting a big ATL fuel cell is no problem.
If you are not looking for period genuine Alpina Parts, parts are available and fairly priced.
Even if you want more than 185hp there is room for more, but then it is on a different budget.
image4896.jpg

Yes, excellent suggestion... probably my favourite so far. Prices for the 2002 are still sane and it does have plenty of power.
I heard from some people in my club that it’s a handful to drive compared to something like the Escorts, but they are in a different price class.
I’m going to start looking for a tii, maybe even touring because they have an interesting shape.

[Bullethead]

The Monte Carlo winning Saab that Eric Carlsson drove had 70-75 hp. The rest was pure driving talent, freewheeling, hand brakes that operated on the front wheels and fearlessness (i.e. big Swedish meatballs). And sadly, those cars are dirt cheap now thanks to the demise of Saab (not that they were ever pricey). You can get those rally MC kits for the 850s still if you hunt around. It would be quite a hoot.

This factory MC went for 21k earlier this year. http://bringatrailer.com/2012/05/11/...nte-carlo-850/

+1... There always seems to be a few available but if don't find an 850, a later 96 with the Ford V4.
Cheap and effective, though lacking whing-ga-ding charm.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-...item2ec10fade4

[uai]

Yes, excellent suggestion... probably my favourite so far. Prices for the 2002 are still sane and it does have plenty of power.
I heard from some people in my club that it’s a handful to drive compared to something like the Escorts, but they are in a different price class.
I’m going to start looking for a tii, maybe even touring because they have an interesting shape.

Peter, no a tii is not the point to start with if you want more than 140 hp.
The mfi engine is far more expensive to tune, as it needs ITBs to get more horsepower. Period ITBs are costly (2k+) as is the modification of the pump and the injectors.
Getting Horsepower out of a carbureted is like a cookbook:
140-150 hp
Get a 2 litre (standard)
get ti or tii pistons
on early ones (121 Cyl head) replace the inlet valves with the larger later ones (e21 Cyl-head)
increase CR by taking off material of head AND block (makes more squish)
put a 304 degree Schrick Cam with single Schrick springs in and add valve pockets in the pistons
add proper valve seats do just minimal smoothing on the intake and exhaust ports (do not widen unless you know these engines very good)
modify ignition advance
get 40 DCOE webers and if everything was done well you're on the 140-145 side with more torque or 45 DCOE and you're between 145 and 150 with less low end power.

To get 170-180 hp
all of the above, but
you have larger exhaust valves (39mm)
domed pistons with hemisperic combustion chamber (Mahle 89 P15 or equivalents from Wössner, KS, ans so on) and have someone porting the head who knows what he does.

To get more you need to invest in rockers and conrods because they don't like 7000 RPM over a longer period
once you have the Schrick rockers (1500€ / set) and the nice Conrods (800€) you can go for a wilder cam, making more top RPM Horsepower but in Winter it will rather be wrong when you need grip.

Thy top teams in youngtimer Trophy have 260+ HP with their Gerent engines, but they are built on a complete different level.

The touring as nice as it is (I like em) is due to its shorter wheelbase not the preferred choice for rallying.

Getting a solid rustfree base is not that easy in central europe, but in Italy are lots of good donors, as sheetmetal is beginning to get more expensive you should look for a good base to start from. If looks don't count get a 80s tuning victim, they often have some goodies in them.
The other Parts that are costly (well not in Porsche terms) are
gearbox ~2500; lsd 75% ~800-1000; brakes use the calipers from 2002 turbo, e3, e9 or 911S (yes) and e21 323 discs and hubs in the front, Brake boosters are getting costly, and the better suspension stuff is also a bit more: you need ti(i) struts, you can have them converted to adjustable USD at bilstein for a reasonable price (<1k incl. dampers), ti(i) trailing arms or make a jig to weld them yourself to box profile.

I don't have a direct comparison to the MKI escort as mine I once had was was a pile of crap I got for free, but they are much lighter.
The only issue is that traction could get a problem due to the weight distribution.

On asphalt I think it is a quite controllable and forgiving car.

Cheers

Uli

[davewadd]

this is a 911SC.... so I'd say a '75 911s would be a good suggestion..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Euy_Va39I1M

[peterf]

Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge Uli.
Looks like I’m completely wrong with the choice of a tii touring which is a shame, because would I’ve found one now.
A rust free (who knows…) orange tii touring for 6.650€.

But I didn’t do my homework since I had idea that a.) tourings have a shorter wheelbase and b.) the injected engines are that much harder to "open up".
I’ll keep looking, this time for a coupe…


tiitouring.jpg

[uai]

Peter, if it is rust free it's a steal.
I'd prefer an early -8/73 but a touring tii is not so easy to find.
You're in holland?
Manders had a prepped rallye 2002 for little money, but I think it is already sold.
http://www.mandersautogas.nl
http://www.euroclassics.nl

You can get in contact with him. He knows these cars and has every now and then some interesting stuff for sale at a reasonable price.

Or go to http://treffen.bmw02club.nl/index.php/nl/ Lelystad the next weekend. There will be cars from all over europe - perhaps even your winter Rallye car at a bargain price.

Cheers

Uli

[Bullethead]

A rust-free 2002tii Touring for that price IS A STEAL. BTW, the wheelbase is identical to the standard coupe: 2500mm.
Also, because of the roof structure Tourings have slightly stiffer torsional rigidity. Like all BMWs in this model line, they
need to be reinforced at several key points in the chassis for competition duty, but you'd do that anyway for a rally car.