Question of Procedure

[69Sman]

The bottom line is this: IF a case is restamped WITH the original number for a chassis, IT SHOULD BE NOTED IN BLOOD, disclosed for the world to know in perpetuity. Otherwise....even if a seller indicating 'replacement case restamped with original number, and the buyer was OK with it....somewhere down the road, a seller might 'forget' or not know the history...

A car is only original when it leaves the factory. Anything done afterward is something else. IF it's not disclosed, it's fraud. ALL IMHO.

Marco, I see your point, but disagree.

Anybody else remember Rob's RS? When HE sold it, he CLEARLY disclosed that the engine had been damaged (he sold it with the damaged case), and that he had sourced and stamped a new case with the matching engine number......no harm, no foul. After the car had changed hands a few more times, suddenly it had a 'matching #'s engine.....
So....what's OK and what's not ok?
It's ok to do whatever you want. Just call a spade a spade....

[sithot]

Stacy:

Well stated.

Speaking of "spades" this is an oldie but a goodie.

"Liars figure but figures don't lie."


Tom

[Christian Guthrie]

"If the factory didn't want a blank to be stamped, then they would cross-hatch or otherwise deface the stamping area. It is that simple. "

The factory never built these cars as collector cars therefore would not have made it where someone else could not enter their own number. As far as I'm concerned, if the engine was replaced by the factory and you have the paperwork to prove it, thats the correct engine for the car. It's still not the original engine and never will be, but something has happened and the factory has remedied the situation in a way that makes them, the original designers and manufactures, satisfied with the results. Anyone other than the factory who claims a blank engine as original is fraud in my opininon. As someone else said previously in this post, that's one reason low mileage barn finds are so desireable ( and the price reflects this accordingly). This also goes for other parts of the car as well. I replaced the hood on my 356 with a factory replacement hood. It did not leave the factory with that hood and despite the fact it was an un-numbered replacement, I did not stamp the last 3 of the S/N. Just my opinion, great topic for discussion.

[fryardds]

It's been my understanding that the new, blank case was supposed to be stamped with the car's original engine number and the original, damaged engine case disposed of. It's my understanding that when this work was performed by the factory a *Z* or an *AZ* was added to the number to indicate a replacement (I can never remember). However, if the work was carried out by an independent shop or dealer, a number of things may have happened:

Hi Marco,

Interesting discussion about an important topic considering quality classic 911s are in large part collector cars. Personally the only early 911 I would consider buying with a non-original engine case would be a hotrod with a trick engine.

As a matter of clarification on your statement above. The factory replacement engine cases I have seen were stamped with 'AT' before the serial number (without quotation marks). I have been looking around on various computers for a couple of photos I know I have that show this serial number. I forget what the initials stand for, so I'm hopeful someone else can tell us the German words that are represented by 'AT'.

[ChristianS]

As a matter of clarification on your statement above. The factory replacement engine cases I have seen were stamped with 'AT' before the serial number (without quotation marks). I have been looking around on various computers for a couple of photos I know I have that show this serial number. I forget what the initials stand for, so I'm hopeful someone else can tell us the German words that are represented by 'AT'.

Hi Brian,

the initials "AT" stand for Austausch (Teil) which can be translated to exchange (part) and are common expression in the German automotive industry.

Cheers,
Christian

[NickP]

Marco et al

This has been one of the most interesting threads offered up an a while. I think it's safe to say we all agree that since a car is truly original only in the exact form it left the factory that this should represent the highest value potential for a car. Condition of the car in its original state becomes the variable. To me, mechanical things wear out, plain and simple. Anything that gets replaced should be disclosed and it's up to the buyer to determine the impact on value to him. The heart and soul of these cars are their motors so the debate on where the original case fits into the equation is interesting, but it's still a part, like everything else on the car. As has been stated, disclosure is the key and restamping a case without disclosure is no bueno.

My car was restored at Sonauto Motors in France in 1987-88. A numbered RS motor (6630993) was installed at the time. It has the AT stamping (right below the 911/83) so it was a replacement case. I know it came out an RS but it's been a while since I looked it all up so I don't remember which car other than I think it was an Italian delivered tangerine car.

I'm happy to take a photo but I can't post it with my iPad and that all I've got. If someone is interested in posting the photo, pm me and I'll send the photo.



Nick

[fryardds]

Hi Christian,

Thanks for the follow up on my request. Very helpful.

Nick,

Could you post up a photo of the type number showing the AT stamping please? I have never seen that before.

[Cliff]

If you have two engines with the SAME #, then one is an imposter! No matter who created it. Afterall',though Porsche made them (engines) that does not make'em original to that car. Also, the original engine builder might have issues with originality! I would rather see the case blank & a rebuilt running original engine is better than a frozen engine.

[fryardds]

Oh goodie I found one of the photos I have. This was posted up by Lars quite some time ago. I notice the font is not consistant with the style used on the original engine cases. Would be cool to know when this case or engine was exchanged. Anyway, back to the topic of the thread.

[steve shea]

Cliff is right on. The issue is the second numbered case. One of the most respected engine builders in the Porsche world will under no circumstance restamp. Why? His comment is always "then there are two engines with the same number". If the owner of the high dollar car insists, he would hand the stamp set over and say have at it. He has a stellar reputation and in no way will be part of a restamp. Once again, the blank case speaks for itself and would suffer the least value hit especially with documentation. As far as the other ancillary items being changed, it sure has not effected value much. Look at the Gmund coupe RS did for Peter Porsche. Nothing on that car is original. Spyder #1 and a large percentage of all 4 cams are being pushed by blank or non original cases. I'm tellin' ya blank is the way to go. All bases covered.