Question about Non-Matching #'s Values

[gsjohnson]

So let's say a Tier 1 67S is 300K.
At a 10% knock for non-matching...270K
At a 30% knock for non-matching...210K
I would think the non-matching hit is closer to 210K than 270K

[Louie]

Based on actual known sales?

[NorthernThrux]

drilling down for a moment...if ANYONE has a tier 1 67S that is non-matching but does have the correct model/ year engine etc and they would like to sell for 30% off Hagertys pricing estimates...I will buy it. PM today...I am not joking.

In the Porsche world, the car you have described is Tier 2. So there's your discount right there.

[Frank Beck]

....at this point there isn't enough market data and we are all just offering opinions. Fun though!

I always muse when I hear that we're "just offering opinions." Many in this community offer their opinions because they are ready, willing, and able buyers.

I would rather gauge the market based on what I hear from those on the field rather than noise from the sidelines.

Non matching number is at least a 25% hit for a top car.

[rmfent]

Interesting discussion here. Apparently the E-Bay 67S went for 90K with a non-matching engine.
The car will need 100K+ resto to make it a #1 or 2+ Car. So lets say a buyer has $200K invested for a non-matching car.
Without knowing who purchased the car (restorer/dealer or private) I would say that buyer would need some incentive to take on the project so he must feel at the end of the day the car has a value of $250K approx. Seems like a fair return for 18 months of aggravation and cash. I personally have looked at the sand beige car at Auto Kennel with an ask of $250K. The car is a matching# car that has had a pretty well done resto in the last 2-3 years. I have not seen a $300K 67S as yet. I heard Road Scholars might have gotten close to that for their 67S targa that was shown at Monterey last August. In summary we have to look at the actual sales. This is just 1 example. A non-matching well done 67S should be in excess of $200K based on an actual sale that took place last week. $250K appears to be a reach at this time based on Paul's ask for his. I feel 15% is probably a good deduct for non-matching#s car. However color could trump that as I have seen some really great colors bring huge premiums. A '65 911 factory black car just had a No Sale on Ebay at 70K. Lots of bidding. Did not meet reserve.
Non-matching car. Seller must think its has more value because of the color. Just my 2 cents.

[pu911rsr]

It really come down to who is buying - the big dollar cars are going to collectors who probably won't consider a non number's match car at any discount. If you want a driver, you are a different buyer with different needs and budget. It's funny when you look at speedster market folks will pay pretty big money for a non number's matching car, the 911 market is not there yet.
Phil

[Louie]

Well stated rmfent. With the only possible exception being the estimated cost to restore. $100k to start and more like $150k once its all done.

Northernthrux (awesome handle btw) there is nothing on the Hagerty pricing widget that gives any deduction for non-numbers matching. I went back and read all their pricing info and there is no such mention. Where did you gather this info regarding %s of lesser values for numbers matching or not?

I am going to bug Hagerty tomorrow and ask for more details on their valuation widget. I did this a few months ago and the guy who did the actual gathering of info for their guide told me their info is based mostly NON auction sales results. Matter of fact he told me that they intentionally avoid auction results due to the potentially booze induced bidding factor. They get their info from the end users who are using them for insurance and provide the proof of sale (I am assuming) for insurance reasons.

Interesting discussion here. Apparently the E-Bay 67S went for 90K with a non-matching engine.
The car will need 100K+ resto to make it a #1 or 2+ Car. So lets say a buyer has $200K invested for a non-matching car.
Without knowing who purchased the car (restorer/dealer or private) I would say that buyer would need some incentive to take on the project so he must feel at the end of the day the car has a value of $250K approx. Seems like a fair return for 18 months of aggravation and cash. I personally have looked at the sand beige car at Auto Kennel with an ask of $250K. The car is a matching# car that has had a pretty well done resto in the last 2-3 years. I have not seen a $300K 67S as yet. I heard Road Scholars might have gotten close to that for their 67S targa that was shown at Monterey last August. In summary we have to look at the actual sales. This is just 1 example. A non-matching well done 67S should be in excess of $200K based on an actual sale that took place last week. $250K appears to be a reach at this time based on Paul's ask for his. I feel 15% is probably a good deduct for non-matching#s car. However color could trump that as I have seen some really great colors bring huge premiums. A '65 911 factory black car just had a No Sale on Ebay at 70K. Lots of bidding. Did not meet reserve.
Non-matching car. Seller must think its has more value because of the color. Just my 2 cents.

[Louie]

What would cause this to happen for early longhoods? Am I right that scarcity of great cars to buy would possibly have an effect? Did 356 Speedsters ever go through this number matching phase? (I honestly have no idea)

It really come down to who is buying - the big dollar cars are going to collectors who probably won't consider a non number's match car at any discount. If you want a driver, you are a different buyer with different needs and budget. It's funny when you look at speedster market folks will pay pretty big money for a non number's matching car, the 911 market is not there yet.
Phil

[NorthernThrux]

Louie,
Hagerty says Condition 1 cars are the best in the world, to be found at the finest concours events. Given that in our Porsche world, best in the world includes the requirement for matchifng numbers, then by definition, nonmatching is not best in the world. It is second best. Matching numbers was very much part of the agreed value discussion for my car with hagergy. Clearly you have not ever had that discussion with them.

When cars get extremely rare, then perhaps matching numbers become less important. But when. you can find several hundred early cars for sale on any given day, then the pecking order is matchings, then nonmatching...all else being equal. Artificial ? Perhaps, but that's the way it is and that's the agreed upon desireability.

Anyway, why all the angst ? If you have any intention of buying a car, then go buy one and find out for yourself. Its not worth the time to debate this ad nauseum. And if you do have a car and are trying to justify a higher value for a nonmatching car, good luck with your sale. The market will decide what it is worth.

Ravi

PS. NorthernThux comes from a 1087 cc 130 bhp Thruxton I built a few years back. Now in a new home in Texas.

[Louie]

Thanks for the info.

I am going to call Hagerty today and get their intel. Will report back. I will specifically ask about numbers matching or not and its effect on value based on their research.

I would hope that everyone on this site will appreciate facts vs opinions. For the sake of the registry and future users I will do my best to research the facts with regards to this issue and report back. (wish me luck)

My intrigue comes from my respect for the opinions on this board vs. the information that conflicts from notable marque experts.

Couple examples:

I am looking at a 72 Dino. Its in boxes and needs a complete restoration. Not matching. Had a Ferrari expert tell me that the value hit is marginal.

Also, in search of a 73RS. I have located 3. 2 were non-matching and the price deduction was minimal. Again, consulted with all the right 73RS guys and they told me that now the 73RSes are so rare there is little deduct for a non-matching assuming the motor/ trans are period correct.

The numbers matching does seem to be important with some individual collectors. Not all. The numbers matching is also not as important for sub groups of the Porsche collector world as previously mentioned. Numbers matching being the most important aspect of a cars value is not a universal truth as perhaps one may believe having read this tread. What may be important to me is not important to others when selecting a car(s).

Fun and informative thread.