What makes an S an S?

[67Porsche911S]

There are people who are able to copy a Rembrandt and even Museums couldn't tell the difference. You can 'update' a 912 into a perfect S copy, so is the original worth so much more money? If you just like the expression on Mona Lisas face a simple copy might do, or one of the million available Speedster replicas. Why do untouched, low mileage, fully documented one owner cars achieve such high values? Originality is the answer.

For me the 67S is special because it is the first production performance 911, the first 911 with 4 ventilated discs, the first 911 with the famous Fuchs wheels... This was the birth of all the performance 911 which followed until today. I keep the bumper weights, it will run on skinny wheels and tires. It is not about enhancement, better ride and performance, it is about the feeling, driving experience and the design of the original sports car concept from 1967.

[304065]

5300 rpm.

That is what makes an "S" an "S."

[Macroni]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tg91hQm6ww


Vic Elford driving an S....

I do not understand this discussion. As you opened with, the difference was created at the factory by the factory. Buyers paid a premium then and are paying a proportionally greater premium now. This has nothing to do with performance outside of what the factory put in. If ultimate performance was the question, we could have quite a whimsical discussion about a V8 powered 911.

[VintageExcellen]

The 911T with all the add ons is just a T with add ons, not an S. Although attractive add ons.

Is the bare chassis on the assembly line that does not yet have a VIN number an S? It is once it is stamped and finished.

Is the non matching number S still an S? Yes it is. And in a few years as long as your S has a period correct S engine in it then no one will think differently as the numbers matching thing has gone too far. Date coded struts, calipers, wheels? come on! you are beating yourself up with useless numbers.

All in all the actual VIN number and actual engine number are what matter. Figure a Ferrari 275 GTB is worth $1million, if the car is destroyed in an accident but the VIN and engine block are salvageable then I can remake the entire car for $250,000. So the car is worth $750k in providence. Fake the VIN number and you are now a cheat, you must have the actual VIN ripped from the actual car to re-create that car otherwise you have a replica.

[Richard]

Tom,
Gratutious...sorry...but I couldn't resist after reading your post. Attached pics are of my '68 Z28 that I just finished. Not a Crossram/JL8 car. Just an original stock, solid lifter 7,000 rpm Z28 302 with a close-ratio Muncie and a 4:10 12 bolt posi. It shares garage space with my (finished several years ago) '67S rally car. They get along well...maybe because they are both pure thoroughbreds.

What was the question? Why is an S (or an early Z28) special? As they say...if you have to ask...
PS...I'd love a W30 Olds....
R.

[Richard]

Sorry...tried to up load the pictures like I used to but no luck. Must be new trick to it that I haven't learned yet.
R.

[72targa]

Depends on the year. I'll begin the discussion with 1972:

• The VIN
• The fuel injection pump
• The fuel injection system dimensions (bigger)
• P/C dimensions
• The resulting HP
• The way the power comes on at 4500 rpm when the S cam kicks in
• The air dam
• The brakes
• The labels

What did I miss?

[sweetE]

My first 911 was ordered thru Bozzani Porsche in Monrovia, CA. I picked the car up in June of 1973 and drive it directly off the showroom floor.
I wish I had not sold it.
It had all the 911 S components, except the engine.
It was officially a 911T.
Had I known what I've learned since, I would have ordered a 911E and I would still have owned it today.
I have owned two really nice 911E's , a 1971 and a 1973.
I do however own a #'s matching 1967S and it is amazing!!
From the experience of the above cars,the S is surely a unique model.

[LongRanger]

I have been having an ongoing dialog, mostly with myself but occasionally with a few other enthusiasts, about the character of our cars and the discussion often revolves around the premium that the market seems to attach to an S. Except for the serial number, there doesn't seem to be any difference in the chassis of a T, E or S. I understand the many tangible options that the factory offered as part of the S option package - engine enhancements, suspension enhancements, brake enhancements, etc. But I can add all of these to virtually any car, and I've seen plenty of T's that have already had many of these upgrades done over the course of the last 40+/- years, at a substantial discount to the price of a "real" S.

Funny, huh? With so little separating an 'S' from the other versions, you'd think there'd be tons of Replikas. But there aren't any. Lots of cars with 'S' trim and 'S' brakes and 'S' this and 'S' that . . . but I've never seen an 'S' clone. Only non-matching number 'S's. (And those seem to get treated like they're radioactive or something.)

. . . I've seen plenty of S's that have been hacked, cut up and modified over time, such that many of these original factory offered parts are long gone, or the cars have been so over-restored that there is no way to identify if there is a single original component with the car, but at prices that are stratospheric. By any measure, these cars are all rare. So what makes an S an S?

You're asking two questions.

Regarding prices, I think that's a matter of supply/demand --- a small number of cars with a growing audience that's attracted to them. Supply is obvious --- I have a '70 and according to the Red Book, there were ~1750 coupes built. Factor in 4 decades fun-fun-fun, the vagaries of owner enthusiasm/means/intelligence, some pretty marginal corrosion protection, and just plain luck, and the number of cars left in any condition gets cut down, like, a lot.

Now factor in Porsche's image. Unlike some other 'brands,' Porsche's audience is world-wide. And when you say 'Porsche' . . . the image that comes up in most people's mind is of a 911 -- here, London, Mumbai, Moscow, or Beijing. With more and more people, with money in their pocket, driving, learning about cars . . . the math is nuts.

As for S-ness . . . to me? --- well, its more than just a few bits and some trim. Or anything to do with 'numbers' . . . matching or not.

First off, 'S' cars are so low-key, they're virtually invisible. No wings, flairs, stripes, or superfluous hornification to attract attention . . . just a letter on the lid. (Love that.)

But driving one? OMG. I spend at least 5 minutes just getting mine out of the garage, firing-up, warming-up, then taking it out onto the street. And after I get it moving, I tip-toe around for another 10 minutes, two-fingering the gear-changes, timing every movement (mine and the car's), doing my best not to stall it or bounce it off anything, while it warms up some more. Then, when the thing finally does settle in, I have the pleasure of being slapped-around by every Sport-Brutility, wanna-be Drifter, and Soccer-Mom-on-a-cell-phone as we go merrily down the street --- oozing/dripping/squirting/spraying/burning oil and gargling gasoline . . .

. . . as long as I keep the revs under 3500.

'Cause, if I get some room -- on a longer stretch of road, or, best of all, an open highway? . . . I'll wind it out.

Acceleration, but not as in noise or shock or drama.

More like a catapult launch. Starts out kinda slow, sneaky, then? . . . .

ZZWWWWWIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING! . . . . .

All of a sudden, this small, old, silly, poisonous little extravagance starts to make sense, transforming from an occlusion in the arteries of commerce into some kind of sub-atomic particle, moving through space and time while the rest of the world stands still.

No engine management --- except me. No ABS, traction control, stability-program, air-bags, side-guard door beams, open-door-buzzers, air conditioning, or cup-holders.

On 185-section tires . . .



Now --- THAT's entertainment. That's S-ness.

Rick Kreiskott

[Bobby Smith]

Hide the VIN and you won't know it's not what it's not

How's this for hiding the VIN?

Orangello really is a sweet and FASSSST 911 that was lovingly built. I'm proud to have taken it to the next level and to be it's caretaker. Orangello is in good hands!